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M
I'm really gonna throw a spanner in the works now. LOL 
Just a side point but there are sins of omission as well. Often when people
talk about sin, they talk about the things they have done, but what about the
things they haven't done which they should have done.
Now big question - honestly I am not sure of the answer myself.
Did Adam and Eve sin before the fall? They ate from the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil and for the first time realised they were naked.
But they were also naked before they ate from the tree, is it possible they also
committed sinful actions before the fall but were unaware of it? If so, then it
was not held against them as they had no knowledge of what they were doing.
I told you it was a bit of a "spanner in the works" question. I don't know either.
Another spanner in the works question - what exactly is sin?
We can point to things like robbing a bank, lying, stealing being
rude or angry etc and we know that is sin. But the actual act of sinning is just
a by-product of the thought processes of the brain.
The wrong doing is an outward action of an inner attitude or thought process.
So… is sin really more about the way we think, rather then the actual action.
If this is the case, then it would make sense that sin came into the world when the
knowledge of good and evil came into the world.
Umm interesting, the verses which say be transformed by the renewing
of your mind, would make more sense if sin was regarded as the way we think,
rather then by what we do.
Other interesting verses:-
Gen 6 v 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the
earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil
continually.
Matt 15 v 17
Do you not understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the
stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the
mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart
proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false
witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man….
If sin is the ingrained way a man thinks, and the outward working of it is just
a consequential wrong action. Then sin goes way beyond just the physical, one
might conclude that the sin nature became part of our DNA, with the only corrective
cure being the blood of Jesus for those who accept the free gift of salvation.
Even then, the sin nature is so ingrained, that the current physical body still cannot be
saved, it gets old, gets ill, breaks down and dies - only the spirit is saved, the inner man.
My brain is starting to hurt now, i've done too much thinking
Just a side point but there are sins of omission as well. Often when people
talk about sin, they talk about the things they have done, but what about the
things they haven't done which they should have done.
Now big question - honestly I am not sure of the answer myself.
Did Adam and Eve sin before the fall? They ate from the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil and for the first time realised they were naked.
But they were also naked before they ate from the tree, is it possible they also
committed sinful actions before the fall but were unaware of it? If so, then it
was not held against them as they had no knowledge of what they were doing.
I told you it was a bit of a "spanner in the works" question. I don't know either.
Another spanner in the works question - what exactly is sin?
We can point to things like robbing a bank, lying, stealing being
rude or angry etc and we know that is sin. But the actual act of sinning is just
a by-product of the thought processes of the brain.
The wrong doing is an outward action of an inner attitude or thought process.
So… is sin really more about the way we think, rather then the actual action.
If this is the case, then it would make sense that sin came into the world when the
knowledge of good and evil came into the world.
Umm interesting, the verses which say be transformed by the renewing
of your mind, would make more sense if sin was regarded as the way we think,
rather then by what we do.
Other interesting verses:-
Gen 6 v 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the
earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil
continually.
Matt 15 v 17
Do you not understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the
stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the
mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart
proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false
witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man….
If sin is the ingrained way a man thinks, and the outward working of it is just
a consequential wrong action. Then sin goes way beyond just the physical, one
might conclude that the sin nature became part of our DNA, with the only corrective
cure being the blood of Jesus for those who accept the free gift of salvation.
Even then, the sin nature is so ingrained, that the current physical body still cannot be
saved, it gets old, gets ill, breaks down and dies - only the spirit is saved, the inner man.
My brain is starting to hurt now, i've done too much thinking
K
Notice once again that James is saying that when those lustful feelings arise from temptation they give birth to sin !!!
Thoughts can be wrong and come from our temptations, but the bible makes a point on rather or not you give into those thoughts and let them grow into sinful lusts of the flesh.
The Holy Spirit was sent to help us to do this and gain self-control over these lusts and put them to death, so that we no longer give into them any more. If a person continues constantly to deliberately give into those lustful temptations the bible shows the Holy Spirit is not working in that person, for the fruits of the Spirit will lead a person not to sin as those those fruits such as love does no harm to self or others. Apostle Paul: Romans 13:9-11, Galatians 5:22-26
V
I've posted these before, Ken, but you apparently did read them then. I pray you do now. This is not a false teaching.
Jesus made clear in His Sermon on the Mount that sin is not just action, it is also thought. The first passage above proves that. In Matthew 5, He gave several examples of the specifics of the Law are not just the actions, but also the thought. He equated anger to murder, lust to adultery, making a vow you have no intention of keeping to theft, revenge for revenge's sake to evil. All these sins originate in thought. To say thought cannot be sin is to deny the very words of Christ.
How, exactly, are "feelings" not thoughts? This is moral equivocation giving you the "right" to sin. Those passages, however, don't let you off the hook as you think they do.
If it is a fleeting, intrusive thought that you quickly shove out of your mind, perhaps. But entertaining those thoughts for even a second most definitely is sin. As is said with lust, it isn't the first glance that it is sin. It is the second. Holding onto a thought you know shouldn't be in your mind is as surely sin as actually doing the act imagined within the thought. You cannot deny Jesus makes that crystal clear.
That is the entire fallacy of you "sinless perfectionism" you claim is possible, Ken. He can only guide you when you heed him. Anyone who says he or she heeds him continually is a liar. That's sin, too.
Matthew 5, NASB
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Mark 7
20 And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy *, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
Matthew 15
19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Mark 7
20 And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy *, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
Matthew 15
19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."
Jesus made clear in His Sermon on the Mount that sin is not just action, it is also thought. The first passage above proves that. In Matthew 5, He gave several examples of the specifics of the Law are not just the actions, but also the thought. He equated anger to murder, lust to adultery, making a vow you have no intention of keeping to theft, revenge for revenge's sake to evil. All these sins originate in thought. To say thought cannot be sin is to deny the very words of Christ.
How, exactly, are "feelings" not thoughts? This is moral equivocation giving you the "right" to sin. Those passages, however, don't let you off the hook as you think they do.
If it is a fleeting, intrusive thought that you quickly shove out of your mind, perhaps. But entertaining those thoughts for even a second most definitely is sin. As is said with lust, it isn't the first glance that it is sin. It is the second. Holding onto a thought you know shouldn't be in your mind is as surely sin as actually doing the act imagined within the thought. You cannot deny Jesus makes that crystal clear.
That is the entire fallacy of you "sinless perfectionism" you claim is possible, Ken. He can only guide you when you heed him. Anyone who says he or she heeds him continually is a liar. That's sin, too.
G
This post really speaks volumes the more I read it VW.
What do we learn more about in Christianity today? Sin or the Son.
What do we know better in our Christian walk? Sin or the Son.
While most of us have a pretty good lock on our sins and behaviors, most of us would have to google the doctrine of the Hypo-static union to get a definition for it.
What do we learn more about in Christianity today? Sin or the Son.
What do we know better in our Christian walk? Sin or the Son.
While most of us have a pretty good lock on our sins and behaviors, most of us would have to google the doctrine of the Hypo-static union to get a definition for it.
A
Selfishness is choice.
Here are the commandments wrapped up in a neat and holy-cow way:
Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this:‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
So, if it's not love God fully and love other's fully, then the only thing left is love self fully.
Selfishness is sin. Even if we can't name the exact rule on why we shouldn't do something, we still choose to be selfish.
Here are the commandments wrapped up in a neat and holy-cow way:
Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this:‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
So, if it's not love God fully and love other's fully, then the only thing left is love self fully.
Selfishness is sin. Even if we can't name the exact rule on why we shouldn't do something, we still choose to be selfish.
K
Put them in proper context V.W. !!!
Matthew 5 ------ lust for a woman in their heart = thought that rose to a lustful feeling out of the heart to then become sin.
Mark 7 ----- evil thoughts defile a person because they give into those thoughts and carry it out in action, for you can not take this scripture alone without 1 Corinthians 6:18 of all sins are outside the body except for sexual immorality as that is sin done against your own body.
If all sin is outside the body expect for one which is against the body, then thoughts that come from within the body can not be sin unless carried out physically by giving into them by one's sinful lusts/feelings......
Matthew 15 -------- Says the same thing I said previously because you can not take verse 19 without verse 18 that says when they come out of the mouth they then become sin as they become action, as even words spoken are an action.
In other words if you say to a person you want them dead, but do not actual commit the act of murder, you have still sinned by your words said.
The last statement I said was not false V.W. as the Holy Spirit was sent to guide us how to walk properly in the faith, and nowhere have I ever claimed "sinless perfectionism".
Once again you are making a false accusation on me again, and I would appreciate it if you would stop.
The thing you need to do is do a study on the bible on how much the NT emphasizes "self-control" by believers in the faith, but to continue to say a person will continue to sin everyday day in and day out is not biblical.
Here is a little help for you to get started;
52 Bible verses about Self Control
A
Yesterday I was about to open up my e-Sword program to study God's word. OB called and gave some terrible news about Dad. I was devastated. I did pray, but I was thinking about Dad all day to the point I told hubby, "I wish I could just click a switch and turn a part of my mind off for a little while."
I didn't open e-Sowrd because I was sure I couldn't focus to study. Was that sin?
Of course it was! What? Suddenly I don't trust God to focus my mind and get something out of time with him? Selfishness!
We are without excuse.
I didn't open e-Sowrd because I was sure I couldn't focus to study. Was that sin?
Of course it was! What? Suddenly I don't trust God to focus my mind and get something out of time with him? Selfishness!
We are without excuse.
A
And turning this right back to thoughts really are sin, whether you want to believe that or not:
Matthew 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matthew 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.