-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
M
BY THEIR OWN DEFINITIONS THEY PROVE THE RAPTURE DOCTRINE TO BE FALSE.
ROMANS 11
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Take heed, saved by race and not by grace crowd.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Take heed saved by race not by grace crowd.
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
As you can clearly see we have distinct separation between Israel and the election.
Now they want to tell you this pertains to the supposed 'jews' only.
MATTHEW 24(Christ speaking)
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Still think the church is not the elect??? Why on earth would you?
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Take heed, saved by race and not by grace crowd.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Take heed saved by race not by grace crowd.
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
As you can clearly see we have distinct separation between Israel and the election.
Now they want to tell you this pertains to the supposed 'jews' only.
MATTHEW 24(Christ speaking)
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Still think the church is not the elect??? Why on earth would you?
M
If you believe that every prophecy delivered must include the people it is being delivered to then you are going to run into bigger problems than what I would face. I am at perfect peace with the possibility of a mid or post "taking up" of the church, but you, by applying this principle might find some difficulties.
All prophecy is for the Church. There two groups prophecy is written to The church and those who God is angry at. Never is such prophecy written to a totally separate group. Especially nearly a entire book.
I agree they are part of the church and they join it very quickly. The key is the focus. After two chapters of rather intense instruction to the church, to not mention the curch again for sixteen chapters is a great shift of focus that cannot be ignored. Two choices--either a fundamental shift in the practice of the faith or a fundamental shift in the organization of the faith.
You base that only on the one word "church' when we are reffered to time and again.
Or, try this one on for size, is this not after Revelation chapter four: "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" {Rev 9:4},Try Rev 7:2.
The above verse is read in the seventh seal at the fifth trump in that they not be hurt, not by God's wrath but by satan. The seals are not a chronological order of events like the trumps are. They are read out of a book that witness to different events of the tribulation. Ok heres the other verses:
REV 7
2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
The reason they are holding back God's wrath is that the 144,000 haven't been sealed yet. Nevers says anything about flying them away.
All who put their trust in God are saints, but the church is not a functioning entity on earth at that time, so saints without church.
When 2 or 3 is gathered in his name is it not church? The church is the body of Christ not some building or local membership. You basically said saints that don't belong to the body of Christ which makes no sense.
Again, saints, but no functioning body of Christ upon the earth.
Wow, saints but they don't belong to the body of Christ??? What church do they haft to go to sign up for this membership?
All prophecy is for the Church. There two groups prophecy is written to The church and those who God is angry at. Never is such prophecy written to a totally separate group. Especially nearly a entire book.
I agree they are part of the church and they join it very quickly. The key is the focus. After two chapters of rather intense instruction to the church, to not mention the curch again for sixteen chapters is a great shift of focus that cannot be ignored. Two choices--either a fundamental shift in the practice of the faith or a fundamental shift in the organization of the faith.
You base that only on the one word "church' when we are reffered to time and again.
Or, try this one on for size, is this not after Revelation chapter four: "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" {Rev 9:4},Try Rev 7:2.
The above verse is read in the seventh seal at the fifth trump in that they not be hurt, not by God's wrath but by satan. The seals are not a chronological order of events like the trumps are. They are read out of a book that witness to different events of the tribulation. Ok heres the other verses:
REV 7
2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
The reason they are holding back God's wrath is that the 144,000 haven't been sealed yet. Nevers says anything about flying them away.
All who put their trust in God are saints, but the church is not a functioning entity on earth at that time, so saints without church.
When 2 or 3 is gathered in his name is it not church? The church is the body of Christ not some building or local membership. You basically said saints that don't belong to the body of Christ which makes no sense.
Rev 12:14-17
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. That woman is Israel.
They are Israel and have the testimony of Jesus Christ yet they belong not to the body of Christ???
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. That woman is Israel.
They are Israel and have the testimony of Jesus Christ yet they belong not to the body of Christ???
Again, saints, but no functioning body of Christ upon the earth.
Wow, saints but they don't belong to the body of Christ??? What church do they haft to go to sign up for this membership?
no I do not, I stated this in an earlier post, if the Bride is the church and israel then who is the wedding party? if all believers will be raptured as the Bride then who are the guest?? if the rapture is for all believers then who are the rest of the dead that will be judged after the 1000 year reign, if the bride is all believers then a pre-trib rapture is a false teaching for The Bible clearly says
Joh 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY.Joh 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.Joh 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.Joh 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
Joh 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.
but NOTE here that Jesus says that evry one that seeth me, He is speking to the jewish believers of that time Joh 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
this is where I believe most can not accept a pre-trib rapture they can not seperate the three events which Rev speaks of in chapters 19 & 20
Joh 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY.Joh 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.Joh 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.Joh 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
Joh 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.
but NOTE here that Jesus says that evry one that seeth me, He is speking to the jewish believers of that time Joh 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
this is where I believe most can not accept a pre-trib rapture they can not seperate the three events which Rev speaks of in chapters 19 & 20
Last edited:
I am not sure what parable you are referring to and sir new Jerusalem is not the bride, new Jerusalem is the Holy City, Rev 21:2 compares the beauty of new jerusalem as a bride adorned for her husband. but this is a comparsion "as a" not a statement
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
if all believers are the Church who are the friends, remember when Jesus told the disciples I no longer call you servant , but friends
M
charisenexcelcis
I apologize to you for that last post being sarcastic, I'm going to try a lot harder to avoid being that way. I'll do my best to put forth my point without coming off quite as abrasive and stick to posting scripture and make it less about it being personal. I know you love the Lord and His children and I never thought you didn't. You've always been beyond polite.
ok let's go back to this, for a minute
what did you mean by this that it is not necessary for every item to have meeting.?
as far as the angel taking john to the new Jerusalem to show Him the Bride, where do you suppose that the bride of the King would Live but in new Jerusalem with Her husband the King ????? so could the angel show John the bride without going to the city where she was at?
what did you mean by this that it is not necessary for every item to have meeting.?
as far as the angel taking john to the new Jerusalem to show Him the Bride, where do you suppose that the bride of the King would Live but in new Jerusalem with Her husband the King ????? so could the angel show John the bride without going to the city where she was at?
Mt 22:2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,Mt 22:3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.Mt 22:4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.Mt 22:5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:Mt 22:6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.Mt 22:7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.Mt 22:8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.Mt 22:9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.Mt 22:10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.Mt 22:11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
I really don't understand your point as to the parable here, this says nothing about the bride which we are talking about , but rather here is explaining that some that are called into Heaven will not accept the invitation,
I really don't understand your point as to the parable here, this says nothing about the bride which we are talking about , but rather here is explaining that some that are called into Heaven will not accept the invitation,
S
I am not trying to be rude but by using the same token of logic, just because you or I post here on this site and in these threads does not automatically mean that we know what we are talking about. Right! Let's be honest, you and I might just be a couple of non-thinking aphrons that come here to this site to speak of things that we know nothing about. Why should anyone listen to what we have to say?
If you are a student of the word of God, there is a certain weight given to things that are omitted within a context, especially when chronology is importance to the events being addressed. The subject of the action of the verbs (whether passive or active) and the direct or indirect objects of those verbs are vital to understand in the scheme of what is being taught and revealed. The gospels say very little about the church because God gave that mystery revelation of the church and Christ's relationship to it through the apostle Paul. But if you are a student you know that, right?
You also know that the revelation given to John is a chronology of future events that would take place with a message to the seven churches that would represent seven periods of time that the church would go through that could also be applied to any local church concerning their doctrine, practice and relationship to Christ. The revelation to those churches pertained to things that must shortly come to pass / Rev 1:1 and are ended in Rev 3:22 and you have to have an ear to hear what the Spirit was saying. Then John is given a new revelation of things that must be hereafter in Rev 4. I will not speculate as to the following passages of scripture but will only comment on what is written.
The following is only an observation of the scriptures in relationship to Location, Time (concerning the things revealed) and Voice . In Rev 1:9,10 John was given the revelation to the seven churches when he was in the Spirit on the Lord's day while on the isle of Patmos and he heard from behind a great voice as of a trumpet. He was told of things that must shortly come to past / Rev 1:1.
Location ~ in the Spirit on the Isle of Patmos
Time ~ things that must shortly come to pass
Voice ~ trumpet from behind
ln Rev 4:1,2 John looked and a door was opened in heaven and the first voice he heard was of a trumpet talking with him. The voice said, 'Come up hither' and I will show you things that must be hereafter. John was in the Spirit and beheld a throne in heaven and the One that sat upon it.
Location ~ in the Spirit in heaven before the throne
Time ~ things that must come hereafter
Voice ~ trumpet that came through the open door in heaven that was in front of him
The book of Revelation may be a difficult book to interpret correctly but it can be complicated when speculation is added to or taken away from its message and content which Jesus Christ had warned against in / Rev 22:18,19.
Final comment ~ John was on the isle of Patmos getting revelation about things that must shortly come to pass concerning the church that was on the earth but when he got revelation about things that must come hereafter, he had to 'come up hither' and enter into heaven through and open door and behold the throne. His location changed from earth to heaven and in heaven he got the revelation about those events that would take place that involved the great tribulation in Rev 7:14. I won't speculate what that means but I will take it as it is written. I'll stop here.
you talk about chronology, and yet dispensationalism itself always takes the literal approach to a symbolic book which was not written in chronological order.
if you want to talk about context, then stop taking the Word out of context. I've seen all your famous teachers time and time again: Jack Van Impe and John Hagee do it constantly, and Revelation 4:1 is no exception. In reference to revelation 4:1, it still does not change the undeniable fact that it is JOHN who is being talked to... NOT the church... nowhere is it describing some ridiculous secret flying away off of the earth... again, more eisogesis from the dispensational crowd. Dispensational teachers and pre-tribbers will take any scripture they can find and distort it to suit their own private interpretation.
and if you want to take the Revelation 22:18-19 road, fine, I can do that too...
the truth is this: there are NO records of pre-tribulation or dispensationalism taught in the early church... Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Justin martyr, Victorinus, Theophilus, and EVEN non-canonical books outside of the Bible at that time period, such as the Epistle of Barnabas, The Constitution of the Holy apostles, the Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas... NONE of them ever taught pre-tribulation... research what the Ante-Nicene Church leaders taught in their time... the time period is 1st - 3rd century pre-tribulation and Dispensationalism had no part in Christianity until the early 19th century, when it was introduced by Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby.
this doctrine was added by man, and therefore should be discarded for the lie that it is
if you want to talk about context, then stop taking the Word out of context. I've seen all your famous teachers time and time again: Jack Van Impe and John Hagee do it constantly, and Revelation 4:1 is no exception. In reference to revelation 4:1, it still does not change the undeniable fact that it is JOHN who is being talked to... NOT the church... nowhere is it describing some ridiculous secret flying away off of the earth... again, more eisogesis from the dispensational crowd. Dispensational teachers and pre-tribbers will take any scripture they can find and distort it to suit their own private interpretation.
and if you want to take the Revelation 22:18-19 road, fine, I can do that too...
the truth is this: there are NO records of pre-tribulation or dispensationalism taught in the early church... Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Justin martyr, Victorinus, Theophilus, and EVEN non-canonical books outside of the Bible at that time period, such as the Epistle of Barnabas, The Constitution of the Holy apostles, the Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas... NONE of them ever taught pre-tribulation... research what the Ante-Nicene Church leaders taught in their time... the time period is 1st - 3rd century pre-tribulation and Dispensationalism had no part in Christianity until the early 19th century, when it was introduced by Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby.
this doctrine was added by man, and therefore should be discarded for the lie that it is
Last edited:
C
charisenexcelcis
I apologize to you for that last post being sarcastic, I'm going to try a lot harder to avoid being that way. I'll do my best to put forth my point without coming off quite as abrasive and stick to posting scripture and make it less about it being personal. I know you love the Lord and His children and I never thought you didn't. You've always been beyond polite.
C
Well spoken. I think that often in our fascination with interpreting the book of Revelation temporally, we forget that it is a Revelation of Jesus Christ. There are so many thngs about Jesus that are shown there and get overlooked. I appreciate that there are those who see the timeline differently than I; I hope that i, with you, will not forget to see those things about Christ.
C
First, I am not a dispensationalist. Second, there are early pre-tribber, though the majority were not. Finally, noting what is missing is not allegorical. The literal school holds that the meaning of any scripture is the intended meaning. You ask first, what did the human author say to his contemporaries. Then, what is divine Author saying to all who believe. The allegorical school of interpretation says that the original intended meaning is not important, what is important is the hidden Divine meanings which are revealed to each individual as God wills.
S
I never studied under the men that you mentioned nor under that 'crowd' as you refer to them. I am a simple lay person, perhaps like yourself and have come to conclusions and convictions that oppose you and are contrary to your understanding. Don't I have the commandment to work out my own salvation as you do? Don't I have the responsibility through the word and the Holy Spirit to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good (full of grace and truth) as you do? I am not bitter, resentful, nor do I compete and compare myself with others. You are free to believe as you do but to try and convince others of your error through debate is not good. You are the one who has been ripped away from the truth and has been given to change. I am confident in the truth that is in Christ and no man can take me from it. Your doctrine has no edification in the truth and has no power to build up the members of Christ's body. The scriptures tell us not to meddle with those that have swerved from the truth. We can love you and when you are in need give you the help you need, but we have no fellowship with you because your fellowship is not in the truth. Humble yourself, receive grace and go back to the truth.