When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
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K
The thing is with those who believe in a pretrib rapture is they continue to either deny or work around what Apostle Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
Apostle Paul says do not be deceived, for the man of sin has to be revealed first before any gathering of us to the Lord takes place. Those who teach the rapture/gathering has already happened or is happening now are teaching against the word of God and deceiving those who are listening to them.
Apostle Paul says do not be deceived, for the man of sin has to be revealed first before any gathering of us to the Lord takes place. Those who teach the rapture/gathering has already happened or is happening now are teaching against the word of God and deceiving those who are listening to them.
F
Ok.............so 'they,' including you Ken, get a 7-year tribulation period by equating Mt 24:9-14
= Dan 9:27a; and Mt 24:15-44 or so = Dan 9:27b.
And by finding the words 'tribulation' in 24:9; and 'great tribulation' in 24:21.
Thanks! I wondered where that *7-yr-tribulation*3 1/2-yr-great-tribulation* teaching came from!
Or maybe you sometimes call it *3 1/2-yr-trib*3 1/2-yr-great-trib*?
Either way, i'm forced to reject 7-yr-tribulation because I always read (and still read) Mt 24:2-3a (the disciples' first question) to refer to AD 70 when Titus the Roman destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Just like Dan 9:26 does.
Meaning that Mt 24:3b-14 refers to a much longer time: from the time of the Lord's ascension, or AD 70.........until the great tribulation (24:21), the last 3 1/2 years (24:15-31). All of church history!
In regard to the word 'tribulation' in 24:9, it looks like that usage of it is not referring to either special times: the last 7 Or the last 3 1/2 years. But rather it's used the same as 'tribulation' in Acts 14:22; Rom 5:3; Rev 1:9; 2:9. Meaning the entire Christian history, from the time of the Lord to the church in Jerusalem to Nero to the middle ages to the Reformation to Red China and ISIS and the present, has been a time of tribulation, and persecution, of Christians. This is indicated by Mt 24:13-14.
But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole inhabited earth, for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. The 'end' being the great tribulation of the last 3 1/2 years.
Further indication that 24:2-14 does not refer to Dan 9:27a, does not refer to the first 3 1/2 years of the last 7 years,
are the warnings about false prophets and false christs (Mt 24:5, 11). That has been the history of the past 2000 years. As have the constant wars, famines, and earthquakes (24:2, 6-7). That is not the first 3 1/2 of the last 7. That is the history of the world for the past 2000 years. (Matching, by the way, the first 4 seals of Revelation---those are not the end of the age---those are now!) The Lord Himself, in Mt 24, began prophesying from a time 40 years after His ascension. Namely the destruction by Titus.
In other words, Why would there be many false-christs when Satan's Antichrist is persecuting..........somebody....during the first 3 1/2 years of his covenant?
Seriously, don't feel obligated to labour this point anymore. (But go for it if you want.) Following your particular 7-yr-trib idea,
I would be forced to ask: Who do you feel Antichrist persecutes during his first 3 1/2 years? Certainly not Jews. Christians only? I would like to learn, and nail down, your particular thought exactly.
Thanks!
= Dan 9:27a; and Mt 24:15-44 or so = Dan 9:27b.
And by finding the words 'tribulation' in 24:9; and 'great tribulation' in 24:21.
Thanks! I wondered where that *7-yr-tribulation*3 1/2-yr-great-tribulation* teaching came from!
Or maybe you sometimes call it *3 1/2-yr-trib*3 1/2-yr-great-trib*?
Either way, i'm forced to reject 7-yr-tribulation because I always read (and still read) Mt 24:2-3a (the disciples' first question) to refer to AD 70 when Titus the Roman destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Just like Dan 9:26 does.
Meaning that Mt 24:3b-14 refers to a much longer time: from the time of the Lord's ascension, or AD 70.........until the great tribulation (24:21), the last 3 1/2 years (24:15-31). All of church history!
In regard to the word 'tribulation' in 24:9, it looks like that usage of it is not referring to either special times: the last 7 Or the last 3 1/2 years. But rather it's used the same as 'tribulation' in Acts 14:22; Rom 5:3; Rev 1:9; 2:9. Meaning the entire Christian history, from the time of the Lord to the church in Jerusalem to Nero to the middle ages to the Reformation to Red China and ISIS and the present, has been a time of tribulation, and persecution, of Christians. This is indicated by Mt 24:13-14.
But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole inhabited earth, for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. The 'end' being the great tribulation of the last 3 1/2 years.
Further indication that 24:2-14 does not refer to Dan 9:27a, does not refer to the first 3 1/2 years of the last 7 years,
are the warnings about false prophets and false christs (Mt 24:5, 11). That has been the history of the past 2000 years. As have the constant wars, famines, and earthquakes (24:2, 6-7). That is not the first 3 1/2 of the last 7. That is the history of the world for the past 2000 years. (Matching, by the way, the first 4 seals of Revelation---those are not the end of the age---those are now!) The Lord Himself, in Mt 24, began prophesying from a time 40 years after His ascension. Namely the destruction by Titus.
In other words, Why would there be many false-christs when Satan's Antichrist is persecuting..........somebody....during the first 3 1/2 years of his covenant?
Seriously, don't feel obligated to labour this point anymore. (But go for it if you want.) Following your particular 7-yr-trib idea,
I would be forced to ask: Who do you feel Antichrist persecutes during his first 3 1/2 years? Certainly not Jews. Christians only? I would like to learn, and nail down, your particular thought exactly.
Thanks!
Nope. Mystery Babylon is just Islam, not all false religions. Mystery Babylon is said to be the "Mother of all Harlots" meaning the "Mother of all False Religions/Faiths." Christianity will be completely purged from the regions that the Harlot controls. Then the Beast will turn on the Harlot and destroy her. We are seeing this happening right before our eyes.
P
1)all saints are beheaded by the AC,DURING THE GT.....making postrib rapture an impossibility..
2) Mat 25 ;1 only fits pretrib.
3) both noah and lot are used to describe the season of his coming/rapture gathering.. NEITHER ARE POSTRIB PLAYERS,NOR IS THEIR DELIVERANCE.
4) harvest is 4 parts. Postrib adherents can NOT in anyway touch this dimension,or the bride/groom dimension.
2) Mat 25 ;1 only fits pretrib.
3) both noah and lot are used to describe the season of his coming/rapture gathering.. NEITHER ARE POSTRIB PLAYERS,NOR IS THEIR DELIVERANCE.
4) harvest is 4 parts. Postrib adherents can NOT in anyway touch this dimension,or the bride/groom dimension.
B
Rapture is simply an heavenly process of transportation of humans by God unto the other side for their reward irrespectively of the life they lived on earth. And this action comes to play immediately that human drops dead. It is what we commonly know as SPIRIT or SOUL that is being RAPTURE up into space to meet the Lord or to meet his torment. Anyone involve in this process, (Rapture) is given a small time to see things on earth without the heathen sees him cuz he has been given another form of body. There are lots of mysteries to be reveal but step by step we shall arrive there. Thanks!
Last edited by a moderator:
B
Rapture is simply an heavenly process of transportation of humans by God unto the other side for their reward irrespectively of the life they lived on earth. And this action comes to play immediately that human drops dead. It is what we commonly know as SPIRIT or SOUL that is being RAPTURE up into space to meet the Lord or to meet his torment. Anyone involve in this process, (Rapture) is given a small time to see things on earth without the heathen sees him cuz he has been given another form of body. There are lots of mysteries to be reveal but step by step we shall arrive there. Thanks!
Are you familiar with OPEC? Here are some of the top oil exporters in the world.
#1 Saudi Arabia 7,635,000 BB/day
#3 Iran 2,523,000 BB/day
#4 United Arab Emirates 2,395,000 BB/day
#6 Iraq 2,170,000 BB/day
#7 Kuwait 2,127,000 BB/day
#8 Nigeria 2,102,000 BB/day
[h=2]Saudi billionaires[/h] [TABLE="class: sortable wikitable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TH="class: headerSort"]Name[/TH]
[TH="class: headerSort"]Estimated wealth (USD)[/TH]
[TH="class: headerSort"]Source[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$21.6 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Investments[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Sheikh Ahmed bin Abdullah Al Juffali[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$19.8 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Investments, Diversified[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Mohammed Al Amoudi[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$9 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Oil[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Sulaiman Al Rajhi[SUP][3][/SUP][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$8.4 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Banking[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Maan Al-Sanea[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$8.1 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Construction, finance[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Mohamed Bin Issa Al Jaber[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$5.3 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Real estate, hotels[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Saleh Kamel[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$5 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Diversified[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Saleh Al Rajhi[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$4.7 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Banking[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Saad Hariri[SUP][4][/SUP][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$3.3 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Construction, investments[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Abdullah Al Rajhi[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$3.2 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Banking[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Sulaiman Algosaibi[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$3 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Diversified[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Khalid Bin Mahfouz & family[SUP][5][/SUP][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$2.8 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Banking[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Aymin Hariri[SUP][6][/SUP][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$2.3 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Inheritance[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Mohammed Al Rajhi[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$1.6 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Banking[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Here's a story about Mecca and her wealth:
[h=1]Mecca (Makkah) The Holy City Of Muslims Saudi Arabia[/h]
Mecca also known as Makkah is the center of the world of Islam. The place is situated in the Sirat Mountains at the center of Saudi Arabia which is like 45 miles inside the Red Sea Port of Jeddah. It used to be an oasis and the place for the old caravan trade route that connected the Saudi Arabia with the Mediterranean, South Asia and East Africa. Since the Byzantine times and Roman Emperor it had developed as an important religious trade center. It was more popularly known as Macroba.
The sacred boundary of Mecca and Medina is called Hijaz. It is at the west of Arabian Peninsula: a narrow portion of piece of land nearly 875 miles long at the eastern part of Red Sea. The place was the birthplace of Holy Prophet (PBUH) and also the religion Islam.
The major tourist attraction is the richness and fruitfulness of the Mecca. Thousands of Muslims visit Saudi each year. It is considered as an important spiritual journey visiting this place. All Muslims with health and wealth are required to undertake this pilgrimage at least once in a lifetime.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication...
Who are the Kings of the Earth? They are literally kings, Muslim kings. To "commit fornication" means to idol worship or worship a false god. Do Muslim kings worship a false god????
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness (or desert)...
Which religious city is located in the wilderness or desert???? John did not identify the city. He would have recognized Rome or Jerusalem but not Mecca as he had never been there and it wasn't the HQ of Islam until the 600s.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’
Do Muslims weep in this way? Do Catholics??
Where does the oil from Islamic countries go?
[h=2]4. Strait of Hormuz
[/h]
Think again my friend.
#1 Saudi Arabia 7,635,000 BB/day
#3 Iran 2,523,000 BB/day
#4 United Arab Emirates 2,395,000 BB/day
#6 Iraq 2,170,000 BB/day
#7 Kuwait 2,127,000 BB/day
#8 Nigeria 2,102,000 BB/day
[h=2]Saudi billionaires[/h] [TABLE="class: sortable wikitable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TH="class: headerSort"]Name[/TH]
[TH="class: headerSort"]Estimated wealth (USD)[/TH]
[TH="class: headerSort"]Source[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$21.6 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Investments[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Sheikh Ahmed bin Abdullah Al Juffali[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$19.8 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Investments, Diversified[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Mohammed Al Amoudi[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$9 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Oil[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Sulaiman Al Rajhi[SUP][3][/SUP][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$8.4 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Banking[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Maan Al-Sanea[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$8.1 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Construction, finance[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Mohamed Bin Issa Al Jaber[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$5.3 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Real estate, hotels[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Saleh Kamel[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$5 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Diversified[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Saleh Al Rajhi[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$4.7 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Banking[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Saad Hariri[SUP][4][/SUP][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$3.3 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Construction, investments[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Abdullah Al Rajhi[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$3.2 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Banking[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Sulaiman Algosaibi[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$3 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Diversified[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Khalid Bin Mahfouz & family[SUP][5][/SUP][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$2.8 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Banking[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Aymin Hariri[SUP][6][/SUP][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$2.3 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Inheritance[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Mohammed Al Rajhi[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$1.6 billion[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Banking[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Here's a story about Mecca and her wealth:
[h=1]Mecca (Makkah) The Holy City Of Muslims Saudi Arabia[/h]
Mecca also known as Makkah is the center of the world of Islam. The place is situated in the Sirat Mountains at the center of Saudi Arabia which is like 45 miles inside the Red Sea Port of Jeddah. It used to be an oasis and the place for the old caravan trade route that connected the Saudi Arabia with the Mediterranean, South Asia and East Africa. Since the Byzantine times and Roman Emperor it had developed as an important religious trade center. It was more popularly known as Macroba.
The sacred boundary of Mecca and Medina is called Hijaz. It is at the west of Arabian Peninsula: a narrow portion of piece of land nearly 875 miles long at the eastern part of Red Sea. The place was the birthplace of Holy Prophet (PBUH) and also the religion Islam.
The major tourist attraction is the richness and fruitfulness of the Mecca. Thousands of Muslims visit Saudi each year. It is considered as an important spiritual journey visiting this place. All Muslims with health and wealth are required to undertake this pilgrimage at least once in a lifetime.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication...
Who are the Kings of the Earth? They are literally kings, Muslim kings. To "commit fornication" means to idol worship or worship a false god. Do Muslim kings worship a false god????
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness (or desert)...
Which religious city is located in the wilderness or desert???? John did not identify the city. He would have recognized Rome or Jerusalem but not Mecca as he had never been there and it wasn't the HQ of Islam until the 600s.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’
Do Muslims weep in this way? Do Catholics??
Where does the oil from Islamic countries go?
[h=2]4. Strait of Hormuz
[/h]
The Strait of Hormuz is not only one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, it is also one of the most essential ones, due to the amount of oil tankers that navigate these waters on a daily basis. Around one third of the world’s oil is transported through this strait, making it essential not only for trade, but for the global economy as a whole.
Think again my friend.
K
Christians and Jews are already being persecuted and killed around the world right now, and especially in the middle east so us being killed during the first 3 1/2 years would not be something different then what is taking place now. Once the man of sin reveals himself at the A.O.D. that persecution and killing will hit an all time high, hince why it will be called the great tribulation.
Because there will be no time in history to ever have as many Jews and Christians killed as will be killed during this time period.
The start of those 7 years have nothing to do with the persecuting and killing, but more of the rise to power by the man of sin and the making of his covenant to allow the Jews to return to doing their temple laws do to a new temple will be in place.
The word tribulation is used in the passage because believers are not appointed to escape the persecution of the world, as we are only told by God's word that we are not appointed to face His wrath. Revelation 15 and 16 tell us when God's wrath is poured out !!!
K
The escaping in Luke 21:36 is about escaping before God's wrath is poured out, as notice how verse 25 switches to God's wrath being poured out. Revelation 3:10 is also about not facing God's wrath !!!
Revelation 7:9-17 do not escape the GT persecution and killing, as verse 14 says they come out of the GT not before it.
And the other scriptures make it clear those believers in the GT will be persecuted and killed by the man of sin, not raptured....
Revelation 12:6 is about the Jews in Judea who are told by Jesus to flee to the mountains, and are protected there from the man of sin for the final 3 1/2 years of the GT. Not a rapture........
Revelation 14:1-5 is speaking on the return of our Lord, and mentions the 144,000 who once again will be in the GT.
There is no scripture to say they have been raptured during this period, and Revelation 7 says only that they were sealed so that no harm will come to them. They are also called the first fruits in Rev. 14 because they are the first Jews during the tribulation to turn their belief to the Lord.
Jesus makes this more clear that we are not greater then Him, so we also will face persecution just as He did;
John 15:20
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
I liked your post because of what you said about a killing spree of Jews and Christians. But there is no real scriptural support for a third man-made temple in Jerusalem before the Man of Sin is revealed.
Ezekiel 40-48 describes the new city, Holy Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven. The "temple" described here is really the "House of God" and not a third temple build by the Temple Institute. It would be interesting to see the plans for the Temple as planned by the institute as I bet their temple is nowhere near the size of Ezekiel's temple. Ezekiel's temple is massive and likely so big that it may not fit on the current Temple Mount. (I need to do some research on this). I've been on the Temple Mount and it's area is not that big. Consider the below visual comparison:
Look at the size of this thing. It's huge!!
If you study Ezek 40 and Rev 21 you see that both John and Ezekiel were taken to a "high" mountain and shown a future city. Both were in spirit. This means they were taken through time and shown the future city. The time they were taken to was after the Man of Sin was defeated and past the start of the new dispensation. We know this from the context of both passages. But also consider Ezek 48 and Rev 21 both tell us that the city gates are named after the 12 tribes of Israel. This would be the first and only time that the gates are named after the 12 tribes and this has not happened yet nor will it happen until evil has been defeated.
Yes, the Third Temple is future but I am not even sure that it is literal as the temple is laid out into the shape of a cross. I didn't draw this but I wish I had as I really like it.
As for the Temple being spiritual (both men saw it in spirit) we have many teachings that we are the temple of God:
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
As for the resumption of sacrifices Peter gives us this teaching:
1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
So we have a spiritual house, a holy priesthood and we are to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God. We are also living stones. This is hugely important as He is the chief corner stone and we are the stones upon which the temple is built.
Rev 2: ...And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’
I'm not saying that the third temple isn't real. It's very real but it is spiritual which is a difficult concept for most and I struggle with it at times. Remember, the Kingdom of God comes without observation and remember we struggle in the spirit.
Ezekiel 40-48 describes the new city, Holy Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven. The "temple" described here is really the "House of God" and not a third temple build by the Temple Institute. It would be interesting to see the plans for the Temple as planned by the institute as I bet their temple is nowhere near the size of Ezekiel's temple. Ezekiel's temple is massive and likely so big that it may not fit on the current Temple Mount. (I need to do some research on this). I've been on the Temple Mount and it's area is not that big. Consider the below visual comparison:
Look at the size of this thing. It's huge!!
If you study Ezek 40 and Rev 21 you see that both John and Ezekiel were taken to a "high" mountain and shown a future city. Both were in spirit. This means they were taken through time and shown the future city. The time they were taken to was after the Man of Sin was defeated and past the start of the new dispensation. We know this from the context of both passages. But also consider Ezek 48 and Rev 21 both tell us that the city gates are named after the 12 tribes of Israel. This would be the first and only time that the gates are named after the 12 tribes and this has not happened yet nor will it happen until evil has been defeated.
Yes, the Third Temple is future but I am not even sure that it is literal as the temple is laid out into the shape of a cross. I didn't draw this but I wish I had as I really like it.
As for the Temple being spiritual (both men saw it in spirit) we have many teachings that we are the temple of God:
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
As for the resumption of sacrifices Peter gives us this teaching:
1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
So we have a spiritual house, a holy priesthood and we are to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God. We are also living stones. This is hugely important as He is the chief corner stone and we are the stones upon which the temple is built.
Rev 2: ...And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’
I'm not saying that the third temple isn't real. It's very real but it is spiritual which is a difficult concept for most and I struggle with it at times. Remember, the Kingdom of God comes without observation and remember we struggle in the spirit.
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K
Well I would have to disagree with that because Revelation 11 does show a new temple on the mount !!!
That vision of the temple is not a spiritual one or up in heaven, as John is told clearly to leave off the outer court because that area has been given over to the Gentiles to trample that area of the holy city Jerusalem for the 3 1/2 years/ 42 months of the GT. There will be another temple during the this period, and the Jews will return to animal sacrifices that the man of sin will put and end to.
In your last part you are using scriptures that refer to believers in Christ, not Jewish unbelievers who will rebuild the temple and return to animal sacrifices......
That vision of the temple is not a spiritual one or up in heaven, as John is told clearly to leave off the outer court because that area has been given over to the Gentiles to trample that area of the holy city Jerusalem for the 3 1/2 years/ 42 months of the GT. There will be another temple during the this period, and the Jews will return to animal sacrifices that the man of sin will put and end to.
In your last part you are using scriptures that refer to believers in Christ, not Jewish unbelievers who will rebuild the temple and return to animal sacrifices......
I liked your post because of what you said about a killing spree of Jews and Christians. But there is no real scriptural support for a third man-made temple in Jerusalem before the Man of Sin is revealed.
Ezekiel 40-48 describes the new city, Holy Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven. The "temple" described here is really the "House of God" and not a third temple build by the Temple Institute. It would be interesting to see the plans for the Temple as planned by the institute as I bet their temple is nowhere near the size of Ezekiel's temple. Ezekiel's temple is massive and likely so big that it may not fit on the current Temple Mount. (I need to do some research on this). I've been on the Temple Mount and it's area is not that big. Consider the below visual comparison:
View attachment 124783
Look at the size of this thing. It's huge!!
If you study Ezek 40 and Rev 21 you see that both John and Ezekiel were taken to a "high" mountain and shown a future city. Both were in spirit. This means they were taken through time and shown the future city. The time they were taken to was after the Man of Sin was defeated and past the start of the new dispensation. We know this from the context of both passages. But also consider Ezek 48 and Rev 21 both tell us that the city gates are named after the 12 tribes of Israel. This would be the first and only time that the gates are named after the 12 tribes and this has not happened yet nor will it happen until evil has been defeated.
Yes, the Third Temple is future but I am not even sure that it is literal as the temple is laid out into the shape of a cross. I didn't draw this but I wish I had as I really like it.
As for the Temple being spiritual (both men saw it in spirit) we have many teachings that we are the temple of God:
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.As for the resumption of sacrifices Peter gives us this teaching:
1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
So we have a spiritual house, a holy priesthood and we are to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God. We are also living stones. This is hugely important as He is the chief corner stone and we are the stones upon which the temple is built.
Rev 2: ...And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’
I'm not saying that the third temple isn't real. It's very real but it is spiritual which is a difficult concept for most.
Ezekiel 40-48 describes the new city, Holy Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven. The "temple" described here is really the "House of God" and not a third temple build by the Temple Institute. It would be interesting to see the plans for the Temple as planned by the institute as I bet their temple is nowhere near the size of Ezekiel's temple. Ezekiel's temple is massive and likely so big that it may not fit on the current Temple Mount. (I need to do some research on this). I've been on the Temple Mount and it's area is not that big. Consider the below visual comparison:
View attachment 124783
Look at the size of this thing. It's huge!!
If you study Ezek 40 and Rev 21 you see that both John and Ezekiel were taken to a "high" mountain and shown a future city. Both were in spirit. This means they were taken through time and shown the future city. The time they were taken to was after the Man of Sin was defeated and past the start of the new dispensation. We know this from the context of both passages. But also consider Ezek 48 and Rev 21 both tell us that the city gates are named after the 12 tribes of Israel. This would be the first and only time that the gates are named after the 12 tribes and this has not happened yet nor will it happen until evil has been defeated.
Yes, the Third Temple is future but I am not even sure that it is literal as the temple is laid out into the shape of a cross. I didn't draw this but I wish I had as I really like it.
As for the Temple being spiritual (both men saw it in spirit) we have many teachings that we are the temple of God:
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.As for the resumption of sacrifices Peter gives us this teaching:
1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
So we have a spiritual house, a holy priesthood and we are to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God. We are also living stones. This is hugely important as He is the chief corner stone and we are the stones upon which the temple is built.
Rev 2: ...And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’
I'm not saying that the third temple isn't real. It's very real but it is spiritual which is a difficult concept for most.
K
Also I would like to add this is a common miss-conception when it comes to the temples, as Solomon's temple was 861 sq. feet in size and Ezekiel's temple is 875 sq. feet in size.
The picture given by you Plainword is only showing Herod's temple area compared to Ezekiel's whole dimensional size including the outer court.
If you take into consideration the outer court and the expansion to the temple mount that Herod did you would have such for the dimensions of Herod's temple and the temple mount that exceed enough space for the Ezekiel temple. People see the mount where the dome of the rock sits and think that spot right there is all there is to the temple mount area, but in reality the area of the temple mount extends well beyond that spot.
The picture given by you Plainword is only showing Herod's temple area compared to Ezekiel's whole dimensional size including the outer court.
If you take into consideration the outer court and the expansion to the temple mount that Herod did you would have such for the dimensions of Herod's temple and the temple mount that exceed enough space for the Ezekiel temple. People see the mount where the dome of the rock sits and think that spot right there is all there is to the temple mount area, but in reality the area of the temple mount extends well beyond that spot.
There is no mention of a "Temple Mount" in Rev 11 but I understand why you think the way you do. We are not told where this "Temple of God" is located in Rev 11:1 but we are told in other places, which I will explain. We aren't given any context for when Rev 11 takes place or how long the events take to unfold. Here are some less-than-simple questions concerning the Rev 11 Temple that we must answer to fully understand Rev 11.
1. What is the time frame for the "Temple of God" mentioned in Rev 11?
2. Who are the Gentiles who "tread the Holy City for 42 months?
3. Who/What are the two witnesses?
The last earthly "Temple of God" was destroyed in AD 70. The phrase "Temple of God" appears just 7 times in the NT. The only time where it refers to the earthly (2nd) temple is right here:
Matthew 21:12
Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.
From this point forward, the "Temple of God" is a spiritual term applying to all those who are God's and God's dwelling among them. Notice the lesson Jesus gives concerning the next temple to be built in the below passages. He is not discussing rebuilding an earthly temple.
Matthew 26:61
and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’”
Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”
There is no concrete teaching that a 3rd earthly temple will be rebuilt by man regardless of those who want to build it. Jesus says nothing of building a new earthly temple to replace the one He knows will be destroyed. The only teaching of a future temple involves the Kingdom Jesus established on the cross and those of us who are apart of it. Paul's teaching is clear:
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”
The above passage about God dwelling with them and they shall be (HIS) people is made again in many places but look at this next verse as it is critical:
Acts 17:24
“God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
Please keep this rule in mind - GOD DOES NOT DWELL IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS. Now let's look at Rev 11:
Revelation 11:1
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
Where is John when he was told to measure the "Temple of God?" Keep in mind the 2nd temple was already destroyed by this time. So was John to measure a third earthly temple for which there is no teaching or was he to measure a heavenly temple for which there is teaching?
So where was John?
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”
John was in heaven. So what Temple did John see? John tells us exactly where the temple is in the same Chapter 11
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.
BOOM, there you have it. The TEMPLE OF GOD IS IN HEAVEN. I know what you are thinking, "NO WAY" because of the Gentiles, right? Are they good or bad Gentiles?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
John mentions the term "Holy City" four times in Revelation. The first time is in 11:2. First, where is the Holy City?
Revelation 21:2
Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 22:19
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Clearly 3 of the 4 times the Holy City is heavenly. I still haven't answered the issue about the Gentiles. Here you go:
Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Thus we have a spiritual Temple of God and blindness will continue to happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles have entered the "temple of God" in the Holy City.
Back to Ezekiel's temple and city. Who is residing there? From the last verse:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]All the way around shall be eighteen thousand cubits; and the name of the city from that day shall be: THE LORD IS THERE.”
Remember, the Lord does not dwell in a temple made with hands? What does Zechariah teach?
I will bring the one–third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
Here is the Lord establishing His reign on earth with His saints.
Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You....[SUP]8 [/SUP]And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord shall be King over all the earth....Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]The people shall dwell in it...[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Sorry for the long post.
1. What is the time frame for the "Temple of God" mentioned in Rev 11?
2. Who are the Gentiles who "tread the Holy City for 42 months?
3. Who/What are the two witnesses?
The last earthly "Temple of God" was destroyed in AD 70. The phrase "Temple of God" appears just 7 times in the NT. The only time where it refers to the earthly (2nd) temple is right here:
Matthew 21:12
Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.
From this point forward, the "Temple of God" is a spiritual term applying to all those who are God's and God's dwelling among them. Notice the lesson Jesus gives concerning the next temple to be built in the below passages. He is not discussing rebuilding an earthly temple.
Matthew 26:61
and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’”
Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”
There is no concrete teaching that a 3rd earthly temple will be rebuilt by man regardless of those who want to build it. Jesus says nothing of building a new earthly temple to replace the one He knows will be destroyed. The only teaching of a future temple involves the Kingdom Jesus established on the cross and those of us who are apart of it. Paul's teaching is clear:
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”
The above passage about God dwelling with them and they shall be (HIS) people is made again in many places but look at this next verse as it is critical:
Acts 17:24
“God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
Please keep this rule in mind - GOD DOES NOT DWELL IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS. Now let's look at Rev 11:
Revelation 11:1
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
Where is John when he was told to measure the "Temple of God?" Keep in mind the 2nd temple was already destroyed by this time. So was John to measure a third earthly temple for which there is no teaching or was he to measure a heavenly temple for which there is teaching?
So where was John?
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”
John was in heaven. So what Temple did John see? John tells us exactly where the temple is in the same Chapter 11
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.
BOOM, there you have it. The TEMPLE OF GOD IS IN HEAVEN. I know what you are thinking, "NO WAY" because of the Gentiles, right? Are they good or bad Gentiles?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
John mentions the term "Holy City" four times in Revelation. The first time is in 11:2. First, where is the Holy City?
Revelation 21:2
Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 22:19
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Clearly 3 of the 4 times the Holy City is heavenly. I still haven't answered the issue about the Gentiles. Here you go:
Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Thus we have a spiritual Temple of God and blindness will continue to happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles have entered the "temple of God" in the Holy City.
Back to Ezekiel's temple and city. Who is residing there? From the last verse:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]All the way around shall be eighteen thousand cubits; and the name of the city from that day shall be: THE LORD IS THERE.”
Remember, the Lord does not dwell in a temple made with hands? What does Zechariah teach?
I will bring the one–third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
Here is the Lord establishing His reign on earth with His saints.
Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You....[SUP]8 [/SUP]And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord shall be King over all the earth....Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]The people shall dwell in it...[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Sorry for the long post.
Question for you Kenneth. You are a smart guy and we agree on Islam being the Harlot.
What caused the war in heaven to break out?
Revelation 12:7
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
As I showed before and repeat here, Paul identifies what the Temple of God is and Paul also tells us the consequences of defiling the Temple of God.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
Thus God will destroy anyone who defiles His temple. So when Paul speaks of the Temple below, what is Paul really saying?
...and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.... And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
If Satan or whatever the Man of Sin is were to sit as God in the temple of God showing himself to be God, do you suppose that would cause a war to break out in heaven and for that defilement to cause God to throw Satan and his cohorts out of heaven then consume him when he returns to earth? I tend to think so.
Would God bless a third man-made temple (should one be built) when Israel has rejected His Son? Would God even allow them to build it and start animal sacrifices again? I'm not so sure.
What caused the war in heaven to break out?
Revelation 12:7
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
As I showed before and repeat here, Paul identifies what the Temple of God is and Paul also tells us the consequences of defiling the Temple of God.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
Thus God will destroy anyone who defiles His temple. So when Paul speaks of the Temple below, what is Paul really saying?
...and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.... And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
If Satan or whatever the Man of Sin is were to sit as God in the temple of God showing himself to be God, do you suppose that would cause a war to break out in heaven and for that defilement to cause God to throw Satan and his cohorts out of heaven then consume him when he returns to earth? I tend to think so.
Would God bless a third man-made temple (should one be built) when Israel has rejected His Son? Would God even allow them to build it and start animal sacrifices again? I'm not so sure.
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