The Cause of Divisions in the Church and Modern Versions

[Viligant_Warrior]

"Yet The NASB, HCSB and NIV all translate the same word as "heresies" in 2Peter 2:1 which fits in with the context of that passage.

Exactly. thanks for agreeing. Frankly, I'm surprised you do. The difference is that this is actually talking about ideas, teachings -- false ones. The 1 Corinthians 11:19 rendering is in reference to people groups, and therefore "heresies" is not a proper rendering there.

So tell me, if you recognize the context of the word in 2 Peter 2:1, why did you ignore the context in your original post, given that it was important to proper understanding of why the word is rendered differently in the NASB and the other modern versions as compared to the KJV? Or were you simply not going to let facts get in the way of a good KJV Onlyist rant?

 

[atwhatcost]

18 For first of all I hear that when you come together in the church, there are schisms among you. And in part I believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved may be made manifest among you. (1Corinthians 11:18-19 KJV)

The Key phrase here is "For there must be also heresies". Paul was saying here that the reason there were schisms among the Corinthians was because there were also heresies, that is heresies were the underlying cause of divisions in the Church.
But look at what the NIV does:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. (NIV)

It changes heresies to differences and removes the words "for" and "also" effectively removing the underlying cause of divisions in the Church. Here's what the ESV says:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,[SUP]19 [/SUP]for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. (ESV)

Hmm, This says that the reason for the divisions among the Corinthians was factions, but divisions and factions are the same thing. Can the cause of a problem be the problem itself? (The NKJV also says "factions" in verse 19)

The Message Bible is the Most atrocious, it reads:

[SUP]7-19 [/SUP]Regarding this next item, I’m not at all pleased. I am getting the picture that when you meet together it brings out your worst side instead of your best! First, I get this report on your divisiveness, competing with and criticizing each other. I’m reluctant to believe it, but there it is. The best that can be said for it is that the testing process will bring truth into the open and confirm it. (The Message)

Again it only mentions divisiveness without addressing the underlying cause.

I detect an ecumenical agenda in the modern versions which makes it easier to accuse people who point out false doctrines in the Church of divisiveness when in light of the King James Bible they're being the exact opposite of divisive by trying to draw all Christians under the umbrella of the truth of God's word.

Here's some 20th century reality on divisions.

Back in the early 20th century, my denomination was fairly undivided.

A group split off when they felt like a certain university (Princeton) wasn't teaching Bible so much as teaching more modernism. They were right. Is that heresy? IDK. I wasn't born yet, so do't know how off they went from the Bible back then. Today what Princeton teaches as theology is bad enough that it is heresy.

The next split happened over the question of whether God decided Jesus would come to earth to die on the cross before or after creation. That was sheer stupid-schism split that should have never happened.

The next split came in the 70's. Then, not only was it Princeton that was replacing biblical theology for modern liberal theology, but the entire parent-denomination was slipping off to modernism as theology. That was heresy, so that's why my denomination split off from the parent-denomination.

Now, that parent-church branches is debating whether it's okay to have homosexual pastors. Another split is coming... or it already happened. Kind of hard to tell what to call that. Sure, that's heretical, however if it's not really a church about the God of the Bible anymore, does it really matter splitting over modernism interpretation of what's good morals and what isn't? There's no base left other than feel-good, and, as we've come to notice in America, feel-goodism is the new and improved way to live. It also changes at a drop of a hat.

So, I see what Paul means easily. What you're complaining about I don't see too well.

Here's what Strong's Concordance has for that word you picked out of different versions -- the original Greek word:
αἵρεσις
hairesis
hah'ee-res-is
From G138; properly a choice, that is, (specifically) a party or (abstractly) disunion. (“heresy” is the Greek word itself.): - heresy [which is the Greek word itself], sect.

Instead of making it some kind of major conspiracy theory, I find it much easier just to take the word back to the original word and then read it in context. So much easier than thinking anyone translating the Bible is wrong, unless it agrees with my pet theory.

Heresy, faction, differences, divisiveness, disunion, splits? Yup, all basically the same thing for sect-creating. Any word works in context.

 

[atwhatcost]

The word "For" indicates the reason the divisions existed. I'm curious about what your interpretation of the word "For" is in verse 19

Skip "interpretation." Here's the original word complete with original meaning:
γάρ
gar
gar
A primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles): - and, as, because (that), but, even, for indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

So, seriously? This really is a KJVONLY thread? LOL

I didn't know, so I just proved many versions are accurate with Strong's who just happened to use KJV for his concordance. Seriously, this was wasted, since we're basing our points on the Bible versus you trying to prove your pet version only.

Sad day when it doesn't matter so much what God says as it does which version we accept. There is only ONE version -- God's words. Men have spent many years of their lives working hard to preserve those words yet you think only King James got it right? Might want to heck out who James was, because he never wanted it right and yet he had translators working who wouldn't lower their standards to appease him.

 

[atwhatcost]

The NASB is a wicked perversion.

The KJV rendering is right and the one in the NASB is wrong.

There is no need to go to the Greek, now if one wants to, then that is them. But God has given us His perfect and pure word in the English language, therefore one does not need Hebrew or Greek.

And the only thing that is a "dead horse" concerning this issue of the Bible Version Controversy, is as brother Peter Ruckman calls it, is: Dead Duck Otherism (the use and preference of the modern versions in other words).

Stick to the Standard. The PERFECT Standard. Which is the Authorized King James Holy Bible.


How I Know That The King James Bible Is The Word Of God by James Melton

You spelled your user name wrong. Maybe you can talk to an admin about changing it. Here's the proper way to spell it ChosenbyKJV.

I'll be joining VW with adding your name to iggy.

 

[atwhatcost]

I'm a little embarrassed, but I accidentally quoted from the Duoay Rheims Catholic Bible, in my post. Fortunately in this case it says nearly the same thing as the KJV the proper reading is:

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 1Corinthians 11:18-19

And that's what you're embarrassed about?

Kind of like wearing shorts, having my pants pocket stick out of the bottom and a roll of toilet paper trailing behind me, yet only being embarrassed by the pocket sticking out.

 

[Andrew1]

Exactly. thanks for agreeing. Frankly, I'm surprised you do. The difference is that this is actually talking about ideas, teachings -- false ones. The 1 Corinthians 11:19 rendering is in reference to people groups, and therefore "heresies" is not a proper rendering there.

So tell me, if you recognize the context of the word in 2 Peter 2:1, why did you ignore the context in your original post, given that it was important to proper understanding of why the word is rendered differently in the NASB and the other modern versions as compared to the KJV? Or were you simply not going to let facts get in the way of a good KJV Onlyist rant?

I don't recall agreeing with you, I still believe that "heresies" is the correct rendering, according to the context of 1Corinthians 11:19 and the rest of the chapter. The Corinthians were inattentive to the doctrines surrounding the Lords supper which resulted in their misuse of it. They were thus engaged in heresy in this. Paul therefore began to explain the proper doctrine of the Lords supper starting in verse 23. Issues of both division and heresy are involved in the passages in question. If heresy didn't exist in the Corinthian Church the divisions would not have existed either.


I would ask that you not read my post as a rant, it was not intended to be taken that way. Not that I might not consider engaging in a good rant sometime but I'm not trying to rant here.

 

[ember]

LOL! no really...LOL!

at the entire thread...I'm not biased

 

[p_rehbein]

.................

 

[ember]

yeah...cartoons is about the final word here IMO LOL!

 

[Yet]

What version did the first century have? Paul's letters not available to individuals so much, that not withstanding, they leaned heavily on the Holy Spirit within for guidance into all truth. The unity transpired by this dynamic. Ink on paper, no matter the version, is not enough. Spirit filled interaction in an organic gathering of totally surrendered hearts is the path to unity. The written word will verify truth and condemn any error being propagated which noticeably will be absent the Spirit sanction.

Discerning the the spirits is the bulwark against heresy.

 

[ember]

What version did the first century have? Paul's letters not available to individuals so much, that not withstanding, they leaned heavily on the Holy Spirit within for guidance into all truth. The unity transpired by this dynamic. Ink on paper, no matter the version, is not enough. Spirit filled interaction in an organic gathering of totally surrendered hearts is the path to unity. The written word will verify truth and condemn any error being propagated which noticeably will be absent the Spirit sanction.

Discerning the the spirits is the bulwark against heresy.

Let's start with discerning the WRITTEN word in an objective way and leave off the subjective experience of varying levels of discernment with all the normal prejudices attached

Let's submit to the WRITTEN word and alter how we think BY that word as the Bible says...let's not try to find hidden meanings and think we are all clever cause we see something no one else does

BTW? this is just a general response...not beating you up personally

 

[tanach]

Whatever Bible is used I am sure the Holy Spirit can guide the reader into all truth. A person does not have to be an expert in Greek and Hebrew to understand Gods message,although it is a useful skill. What amazes me about this site and many Christians in general is an obvious lack of Bible Study. There is a tendency to take notice of Preachers and Authors rather that
finding out the truth in the scriptures. Because a person can talk well and have a string of paper qualifications does not necessarily make what they say true and scriptural. The tried and tested way of discovering truth in scripture is by comparing verse with verse and passage with passage. Pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in your search for truth. Also accept what is true and biblical and not what is popular in particular when it comes to Prophecy

 

[p_rehbein]

What version did the first century have? Paul's letters not available to individuals so much, that not withstanding, they leaned heavily on the Holy Spirit within for guidance into all truth. The unity transpired by this dynamic. Ink on paper, no matter the version, is not enough. Spirit filled interaction in an organic gathering of totally surrendered hearts is the path to unity. The written word will verify truth and condemn any error being propagated which noticeably will be absent the Spirit sanction.

Discerning the the spirits is the bulwark against heresy.

Yet, yet, were not the Epistles of the Apostles passed around throughout the Regions? Were they not made available to all the congregations? Hmm..........

 

[Yet]

Let's start with discerning the WRITTEN word in an objective way and leave off the subjective experience of varying levels of discernment with all the normal prejudices attached

Let's submit to the WRITTEN word and alter how we think BY that word as the Bible says...let's not try to find hidden meanings and think we are all clever cause we see something no one else does

BTW? this is just a general response...not beating you up personally

One will lean heavily to what they have experienced. If ink on paper is your only recourse minus the Spirit, then that's the way you'll perceive things.
There are theologians that study the word every which way from Tuesday for a life time but are spiritually blind to its full meaning if they are not redeemed.
They are absent the Spirit that reveals to the believer His secrets. They approach the word with their intellectual faculties. Those, who are born from above, have no need of man to teach them.
There are thousands of denominations with their own take on things. They look at the word carnally trying to find hidden meanings thinking they are so clever cause they think they see what others cannot. Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth! Carnal knowledge is acquired by the use of ones intelligence. Spiritual knowledge comes through and by the Holy Spirit to our spirit man then to our intellect.
Adam and Cavah threw their hats into the ring for intellectual knowledge, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They longer wanted one on one fellowship with their creator walking in the cool of the day in the garden!
God said don't go that route, the forbidden tree...so...they went that route in direct rebellion and died spiritually as well as physical death.

Israel did the same. God wanted them to come up unto the mount that He might have a relationship with all of them, not just with Moses. They refused. Without that personal relationship, unity remains aloof.
The impotent condition of the body of Christ is the direct result of trying to obey God in the flesh, and not in and by the indwelling Spirit. Our gatherings are run and controlled by the dictums of man, by preset liturgies, and well packaged religious services that feeds the flesh but does little to alleviate any spiritual malnutrition.
Discouragement and dryness pushes some out in order to start up another church, another denomination somewhere down the block. And the carnal fiasco continues taking another lickin but keeps on kickin, repeating it self over and over again. Denominations gone wild!
Not beating you up either. Smile!

 

[ember]

One will lean heavily to what they have experienced. If ink on paper is your only recourse minus the Spirit, then that's the way you'll perceive things.
There are theologians that study the word every which way from Tuesday for a life time but are spiritually blind to its full meaning if they are not redeemed.
They are absent the Spirit that reveals to the believer His secrets. They approach the word with their intellectual faculties. Those, who are born from above, have no need of man to teach them.
There are thousands of denominations with their own take on things. They look at the word carnally trying to find hidden meanings thinking they are so clever cause they think they see what others cannot. Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth! Carnal knowledge is acquired by the use of ones intelligence. Spiritual knowledge comes through and by the Holy Spirit to our spirit man then to our intellect.
Adam and Cavah threw their hats into the ring for intellectual knowledge, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They longer wanted one on one fellowship with their creator walking in the cool of the day in the garden!
God said don't go that route, the forbidden tree...so...they went that route in direct rebellion and died spiritually as well as physical death.

Israel did the same. God wanted them to come up unto the mount that He might have a relationship with all of them, not just with Moses. They refused. Without that personal relationship, unity remains aloof.
The impotent condition of the body of Christ is the direct result of trying to obey God in the flesh, and not in and by the indwelling Spirit. Our gatherings are run and controlled by the dictums of man, by preset liturgies, and well packaged religious services that feeds the flesh but does little to alleviate any spiritual malnutrition.
Discouragement and dryness pushes some out in order to start up another church, another denomination somewhere down the block. And the carnal fiasco continues taking another lickin but keeps on kickin, repeating it self over and over again. Denominations gone wild!
Not beating you up either. Smile!

LOL!..glad you are not beating me up!

well sure we think our experience is the world to us...until we fall off the edge of the world and swim with the sharks ...

Ink on paper is not my only recourse but that ink on paper is where we learn about the Holy Spirit and that is where I am coming from

There are thousands of denominations with their own take on things. They look at the word carnally trying to find hidden meanings thinking they are so clever cause they think they see what others cannot. Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth! Carnal knowledge is acquired by the use of ones intelligence. Spiritual knowledge comes through and by the Holy Spirit to our spirit man then to our intellect.

This should engender a human spirit with humility and not self righteousness, and certainly not divisions or strife or jealousies and the rest of the list

Adam and Cavah threw their hats into the ring for intellectual knowledge, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They longer wanted one on one fellowship with their creator walking in the cool of the day in the garden!

Cavah?

well. my take there would be they did not know what they were trading in...deception can do that to a person...

Israel did the same. God wanted them to come up unto the mount that He might have a relationship with all of them, not just with Moses. They refused. Without that personal relationship, unity remains aloof.

yes...taken note of that one myself....and yet when God blew past the cave Elijah was hiding in, He made all kinds of noise and then revealed Himself in a very quiet way....we are constantly exposed to ourselves but who all takes notice? That may be one of the hardest things to realize and even try to get a hold of and look at as does God...

The impotent condition of the body of Christ is the direct result of trying to obey God in the flesh, and not in and by the indwelling Spirit. Our gatherings are run and controlled by the dictums of man, by preset liturgies, and well packaged religious services that feeds the flesh but does little to alleviate any spiritual malnutrition.

many many are....but suppose God knows that.....from the moment of its inception, Christianity (meaning the disciples and followers of Christ shall we say in the upper room)...the freedom and revelation found in the Holy Spirit as He does not speak of Himself but reveals the heart of God to us, is jeopardized by the very one that has received

begins to sound like some of Paul's writings, but I guess there is no other conclusion because blaming someone else changes nothing...didn't work for Adam

Discouragement and dryness pushes some out in order to start up another church, another denomination somewhere down the block. And the carnal fiasco continues taking another lickin but keeps on kickin, repeating it self over and over again. Denominations gone wild!

One reason I like coming to Christian forums, is to learn about what people are really thinking...cause you just may not hear all this stuff in church, eh?

I puzzle over alot of things alot of the time.....and ask God plenty of questions ... I even get answers sometimes...but honestly, I think sometimes the answers do not come because of me, myself and I

Would I really believe God if He told me? Would the answer be too hard for me to accept?

We are little beings bascially in a static position on earth with all of the cosmos alive in glorious display over our little noggins and God calls the stars by name and knows every planet

Sometimes that has to be enough