When does the rapture occur?

PlainWord · Jul 3, 2015

I think many people confuse the Abomination of Desolation with the Man of Sin. They are not the same thing!! The King of the North places the Abomination of Desolation

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

So not only does Paul talk about the Temple of God and what it is, Paul also talks about a defiling of the Temple as does Daniel. The word, "sacrifice" is not in the original text. It was placed there by the translators. Really what you have is the "daily" being taken away. In Daniel's case the "daily" was his prayer, his quiet time with God.

So what is the "sanctuary fortress?" The below tells us who our fortress is:

2 Samuel 22:2

And he said: “The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer.

Psalm 31:2
Bow down Your ear to me, Deliver me speedily; Be my rock of refuge, A fortress of defense to save me.

Psalm 71:3
Be my strong refuge, To which I may resort continually; You have given the commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

Psalm 91:2
I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust.”

A sanctuary and a refuge are the same concepts. I believe that in the latter days our ability to worship our God will be taken away. God is our fortress and our refuge. Our ability to pray and worship Him will be replaced and instead we will be forced to worship Satan and/or his false god(s). We already know that Islam is Satan's false religion of choice and we know this:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The Church will be killed in a spiritual battle involving Islam and Gay Rights. The world will celebrate when they see this. They are seeing more of it all the time. Prayer is banned in schools. Christmas trees and manger scenes are banned in the public square. God is being removed from everywhere. It's hip to be Muslim and its hip to be gay. It is not cool to be a Christian.

cerialis · Jul 3, 2015

Pumicestone said:

There is only one understanding for Revelation which is confirmed by the fact that this understanding is completely in harmony with the rest of the scriptures, along with the fact that the Bible is confirmed by its own internal evidence and in complete harmony with itself. The one feature which distiguishes the Bible from all other venerated books is accurate prophecy.

Alexander

cerialis · Jul 3, 2015

PlainWord said:

Well my friend, Babylon the Great actually includes all of Christendom, Islam and all other pagan religions in the world today. The Pope himself leads the entourage and like many churches in Christendom is in close connection with the political powers of the world as it also increases its already sumptuous fortune on the Stock Exchange; rather like those whom Jesus condemned two thousand years ago!

As the churches get more richer and the politcal powers get more in debt, this will seal the fate of all religion. Only the followers of The Way who are separate from all this; will escape her downfall.

Even now, we are very close to the dawn of the Sabbath Millennium as I post this.

Alexander

cerialis · Jul 3, 2015

Just a small point here, the size of the respective Temples in Jerusalem, bear no relation to their function. Like the Temple which was originally completed by Solomon, the important thing was that while Israel remained under the favour and protection of Almighty God; the shekinah light was therefore always present in the Most Hlyy. But when God removed his favour and protection in 607 B.C.E. the shekinah light disappeared and the nation was taken into captivity into Babylon.

The shekinah light never appeared again, even when the nation was restored to its land after the new Temple was built. This is why when later, Jesus pointed to the Temple and declared: "Look! Your house is abandoned to you!" (Matthew 23:38) the Pharisees and Sadducees became angry because he had let the cat out of the bag which they had been hiding from the people.

Jesus however declared that as the greater Shekinah which had been foreshadowed by that in the Most Holy, was indeed himself when he declared: "I am the light of the world." (John 8:12)

Alexander

PlainWord · Jul 3, 2015

cerialis said:

Nope, sorry friend. A false religion is a Harlot. The Mother of all Harlots is therefore Islam. Not only is Islam by far the largest false religion it is also located all around Israel surrounding her in a Sea of Muslims/Islamic worship. Islam is the only religion beheading Christians. Islam is the only religion who vows to kill all others who will not follow their false god and prophet. Islam has by far the most kings following her and getting rich off her. Islam is the only religion whose headquarters can be found in the wilderness. Islam and only Islam fits every clue. The fact that Babylon is still a mystery to you and many others baffles me. She is hiding right out in plain sight and you can't see her for what she is, the filthy Mother of all Harlots and the Abomination of the Earth.

pwrnJC · Jul 3, 2015

Correction..at this time in America..as long as CHRISTIANS play nice, speak nice, do not 'judge", be politically correct at all times...keep to themselves and not try to convert, help the homeless, open up their church doors as a shelter, give out free food and materials (as long as it is not a BIBLE, gospel track, or anything that has to do with CHRIST), is ok. Preachers are NOT to hold back from performing a same sex wedding, since gays are now protected by law and have a right, guaranteed by the U.S Supreme Court. "Yes, Christians should be expected to face public scrutiny and harrassment just like they dish out to the world! How dare them tell me my child is going to hell just because they were born gay!"

TMS · Jul 3, 2015

PlainWord said:

do you think the children would resemble the mother? The Islamic teachings are unique to them and don't even recognise Christ as the saviour. The devil is a lot smarter then that and we know he will deceive the very elect (if it were possible), so i know Islam is just a detraction to lead us away from the mother church which is making friends with the world.

tanach · Jul 4, 2015

to Biblicaltruth. Try living up to your nickname.

tanach · Jul 4, 2015

The Pre Tribulation position is wrong. It is wrong because it is based on an assumption that the whole of the last week in Daniel and the Tribulation are the same thing. They are not. In Matthew 24 Jesus replies to his Disciples questions regarding the second coming and the end of the age. His detailed description closely follows the events found
in the first six seals in Revelation. The tribulation is the period that happens after the Abomination of desolation is set up in the temple. It is then that Christians are persecuted by the Antichrist who makes Jerusalem his capital. At the fifth seal John
saw the souls of those killed under the altar. The Rapture happens at the same time as the opening of the sixth seal when
the Moon Turns to Blood, The Sun darkens and the Stars fall from heaven. This is the start of the Day of the Lord when the
wrath of God is unleashed on unbelievers. The Trumpet and Bowl judgements are aimed at the unbelieving world. The rapture takes believers out of the way so that the trumpet and Bowl judgements can take place. In the Bible we are told we would suffer tribulation in the world, but we are not appointed to Gods wrath. The Tribulation represents Satans wrath not Gods. At the sixth seal Christs Kingdom reign begins and he defeats the Antichrist and his armies at Armaggedon.

flob · Jul 4, 2015

About escaping before God's wrath.........................How? I'd like to follow your train of thought.

It will come in upon all those dwelling on the face of the earth. But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man.
21:36 is not limited to 'escaping God's wrath.' Instead, 36 explicitly points out escaping: 'all these things which are about to happen.'
The last 'times, time, and half a time' (Rv 12:14; 11:2) contain both Satan's wrath (12:12, 17) and God's wrath (6:16-17).

Just as in Luke 21:36, that is irrelevant. Your distinction between God's wrath and man's wrath, or Satan's wrath, is
not relevant to these verses. Instead: Rv 3:10's deliverance is from the hour of trial, the entire time of trial.

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth.

To the contrary:
7:9-17 escape the great tribulation of the last 3 1/2 years (Mt 24:21; Mk 13:19) because of the sequence of Rv 6:1--11:19 (chapters 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11) on the 7 seals and 7 trumpets with inserted visions. The great tribulation of the last 3 1/2 years
begins after 7:9-17, with the 7th seal (Rv 8:1). The vision of the raptured overcomers who went through and came out of the great tribulation in their Christians lives and history (7:14) are previously seen in the 5th seal, 6:9-11, unresurrected and unraptured.

And when He opened the fifth seal. I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the testimony which they had. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will you not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed.

There's not much greater tribulation than being slain. As believers have been by Lions, fire, execution, torture, etc, from government and religion in the past 2000 years. 7:9-17 corresponds, in the sequence and context of seals, with 6:9-11
(as well as with 2:10-11, 13, 17; 3:10; 12:5, 11).

You're accurate that 12:6 is not a rapture.
But you're inaccurate that it's about Jews.
It's about Christians who are left behind (3:3). Since, this woman's child are overcomers among God's people from the beginning until the last 3 1/2 years.
Many Christians will be martyred during the end (15:2-4; 20:4). But many will protected on earth. Which goes to my point about 'varying degrees of escape.'

To the contrary:
Israel as a whole and as a nation will see and believe into the Lord Jesus together at the end of the Great Tribulation only.
Zechariah 11--14; Rom 11; Dan 9:27; Mt 8:14-15 as a sign; Rv 12:17.
There are no 'firstfruits of Israel' during the last 3 1/2 years.
Israel's deliverance at the end is what Rv 7:1-8 pertains to.

The Scripture that says 14:1-5 are raptured is 14:1-5.
(As well as Lk 21:36; Rv 3:3, 10; Mt 24:40-44.)
Rv 14:1-5 is in the heavens (Heb 12:22). Not Mount Zion in Jerusalem on earth.
1-5 is first in the sequence of chapter 14 which is its own, sequential discourse on the reapings.
If you read chapter 14, you should be able to see both the sequence and the distinct, various reapings.
I encourage you to do that.
14:3 is particularly clear on rapture: ...the 144,000 who have been purchased from the earth. Not 'from the world,'
but purchased 'from the earth.' 14:4's word 'firstfruits' is also clear on rapture. Since they are taken from the field, from God's farm (1 Cor 3:9), just like the wheat left behind is eventually taken too (Rv 14:14-16), before Armageddon.
These are not new converts like 144,000 Jews. These are they who follow the Lamb
wherever He may go (Mt 16:24-27). They are not martyred or deceased (12:5, 11; 6:9-11). They are without blemish (Eph 5:27). They 'are not defiled with women, for they are virgins.' A very mysterious phrase!
Rv 14:1-5's 144,000 are not the 144,000 of 7:1-8 for the above reasons.
Your suggestion that chapters 7 and 14 might be the same 144,000 seems to me to contradict your idea that Christians must or should suffer persecution, since you say 7:1-8's are 'sealed so that no harm comes to them.'

I'm not familiar with anyone who acknowledges a pre-trib rapture claiming that she or he is 'greater than Jesus.'
Nor does any saint taken pre-trib 'escape' persecution or tribulation. Since, as both of us pointed out, that's the definition of the Christian life. In fact, the slain saints who are resurrected and raptured pre-trib, are often so because they died for the Lord (Rv 2:10-11, 13; 6:9-11; 12:5, 11).
The pre-trib rapture of overcomers is for God's sake, God's purpose, God's need (Gen 1:26-27; Rv 12:7-11). Not primarily 'for' the living, overcoming believers. Just like the Lord is Lord of the Sabbath, He is also Lord of 'tribulation or escape' (Lk 21:36; Rv 3:3, 10; Lk 17:32-37), and of end-times and all time leading up to the end

TMS · Jul 4, 2015

Could it be possible that these signs have already been given by God?
The dark Day
It was not an eclipse. Timothy Dwight says, "The 19th of May, 1780, was a remarkable dark day. Candles were lighted in many houses; the birds were silent and disappeared, and the fowls retired to roost. ... A very general opinion prevailed, that the day of judgment was at hand." Quoted in Connecticut Historical Collections, compiled by John Warner Barber (2nd ed.; New Haven: Durrie & Peck and J.W. Barber, 1836) p. 403. For further commentary on this event please continue reading.

"Almost if not altogether alone as the most mysterious and as yet unexplained phenomenon of its kind, . . . stands the dark day of May 19, 1780,--a most unaccountable darkening of the whole visible heavens and atmosphere in New England." That the darkness was not due to an eclipse is evident from the fact that the moon was then nearly full. It was not caused by clouds, or the thickness of the atmosphere, for in some localities where the darkness extended, the sky was so clear that the stars could be seen. Concerning the inability of science to assign a satisfactory cause for this manifestation, Herschel the astronomer declares: "The dark day in North America was one of those wonderful phenomena of nature which philosophy is at a loss to explain."

Moon turned to Blood
May 19, 1780, stands in history as "The Dark Day." Since the time of Moses, no period of darkness of equal density, extent, and duration has ever been recorded. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come." Joel 2:31.

The moon became as red as blood on the night of the "dark day," May 19, 1780. Milo Bostick in Stone's History of Massachusetts says, "The moon which was at its full, had the appearance of blood."

Falling stars
The great star shower took place on the night of November 13, 1833. It was so bright that a newspaper could be read on the street. One writer says, "For nearly four hours the sky was literally ablaze." Men thought the end of the world had come. Look into this. It is most fascinating, and a sign of Christ's coming.
*Peter A. Millman, "The Falling of the Stars," The Telescope, 7 (May-June, 1940) 57.

They may all happen again i don't know but they have happened???? Research it yourself because it fits perfectly with prophesy and the beginning of the "Time of the End."
"In those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light." Mark 13:24. The 1260 days, or years, terminated in 1798. (Dan 7:25, 1260 years ended in 1798, Dan 8:13,14 2300 years ended in 1844.)

mwc68 · Jul 4, 2015

cerialis said:

There is only one understanding for Revelation which is confirmed by the fact that this understanding is completely in harmony with the rest of the scriptures, along with the fact that the Bible is confirmed by its own internal evidence and in complete harmony with itself. The one feature which distiguishes the Bible from all other venerated books is accurate prophecy.

Alexander

Which understanding is that?

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2015

TMS said:

Indeed, but the daughters of Babylon do resemble their mother. How and what did the original Babylonians worship?

Dan 3: “To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, [SUP]5 [/SUP]that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up; [SUP]6 [/SUP]and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.”

When they hear "all kinds of music" in symphony, they were to fall down and worship the image that Nebuchadnezzar set up. Anyone who didn't would be killed - RIGHT? We have the same thing coming.

Rev 13: [SUP]15 [/SUP]He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Once Babylon is destroyed (by its own followers I might add) we are told that the music stops, the same type of music that they listened to in Daniel's day.

Rev 18: “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. [SUP]22 [/SUP]The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore.

Have you ever heard the Muslim Call to Prayer music? I have been to Bahrain, Syria, Egypt, UAE, and Lebanon. I have heard their music and seen how they "as captives" to their faith bow down to pray. But I have not been to Saudi Arabia (the new Babylon) and I have not been to Mecca to see this "SEA OF PEOPLE" swirling around their idol:

Revelation 17:15
Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

But I suspect it looks very much like it did in Daniel's day. They hear their music, their call to worship, and they bow down and "worship an image that has fallen from the sky." This "image" is the Kaaba Stone. Many think it was the same stone they worshiped in Ephesus under Diana spoken of here.

Acts 19:35

And when the city clerk had quieted the crowd, he said: “Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple guardian of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Zeus?

What is the first, and most important, commandment?

Exo 20:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“You shall have no other gods before Me.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [SUP]5 [/SUP]you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me...

Again, what are Muslim's doing? Exactly what God commanded them not to do. They bow down and worship an image which has fallen from the sky, the meteor Kaaba Stone. They worship it and they serve it. The punishment will be visited upon the children for multiple generations. Only Islam is the daughter of the original Babylon. They are descendants of the same peoples. But we don't have to guess. We are told who daughter Babylon is right here:

Jer 51:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:“The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor When it is time to thresh her;[SUP]47 [/SUP]Therefore behold, the days are coming That I will bring judgment on the carved images of Babylon; Her whole land shall be ashamed, And all her slain shall fall in her midst.[SUP]48 [/SUP]Then the heavens and the earth and all that is in them Shall sing joyously over Babylon; For the plunderers shall come to her from the north,” says the Lord. [SUP]49 [/SUP]As Babylon has caused the slain of Israel to fall, So at Babylon the slain of all the earth shall fall. Jer 25: [SUP]24 [/SUP]all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed multitude who dwell in the desert; [SUP]33 [/SUP]And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth.

Not just Arabia, but ALL THE MUSLIMS OF THE EARTH will be slain. The word, "Arab" means "Mixed Peoples" This is the 6th trumpet when God kills 1/3 of mankind.

As for Islam being a distraction, they are right out in the open as Mother Babylon but you fail to see it.

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2015

pwrnJC said:

Satan has been attempting to destroy mankind since the Garden of Eden. Since the beginning of time Satan has perverted God's laws, commandments and natural order. The very existence of mankind depends upon the union of a man and woman to procreate. If the whole world became gay, mankind would die out.

Being a practicing gay person is a sin. But so is adultery and so is fornication and so are many other things. Paul lists many things as sins that will keep you out of the Kingdom of God. But Paul also makes clear that we can repent from those sins and be saved. There is only one sin that cannot be pardoned and that is rejecting Him. Being gay is NOT an unpardonable sin.

1 Cor 6: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Satan is the master deceiver. He blinds everyone with one kind of sin or another. Sin is sin and being gay is no worse than cheating on your wife or stealing from your neighbor. So be of good cheer. I will pray with you for your child that he or she will come to Christ, repent and sin no more. God loves us all and sent His Son to die on the cross so that we may be saved. All we have to do is accept Him, repent and turn away from our sins the best we mere mortals can.

May God bless you and your child!!

tanach · Jul 4, 2015

Yes there is only one way of understanding Revelation and that is by comparing verse with verse and not reading into a passage things that are just not there. That is what I did with Matthew 24 and Revelation 6.

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2015

tanach said:

You are correct in comparing Mat 24 to Rev 6. The Great Tribulation is the 4th and 5th Seals and Christ is revealed from Heaven at the 6th Seal. He doesn't return at the 6th seal, He is just revealed there then His wrath is about to be poured out.

Luke 17: [SUP]29 [/SUP]but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

When Christ is revealed, the wicked will be slain. The "wicked" will be gathered at Armageddon and the Lord will kill 1/3 of mankind there which we see at the 6th trumpet. One will be taken, one will be left. Contrary to popular belief, we don't want to be the ones taken, we want to be left. Those taken are killed, not raptured. This point is missed in Mat 24 and Mrk 13 but Luke 17 makes it clear where those taken are going.

[SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.” [SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

They are being taken to "the Body" where the eagles have gathered. Who or what is "the Body?"

The King of Tyre

Ezek 28: [SUP]8 [/SUP]They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’”

So where the above body is, those gathered will be likewise killed:

Rev 16: [SUP]16 [/SUP]And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Rev 19: “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, [SUP]18 [/SUP]that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[SUP][/SUP] and slave, both small and great.”

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

KennethC · Jul 4, 2015

Actually Revelation 11:3 shows exactly where the temple will be located at, and it says the holy city, which is Jerusalem !!!

PlainWord said:

There is no mention of a "Temple Mount" in Rev 11 but I understand why you think the way you do. We are not told where this "Temple of God" is located in Rev 11:1 but we are told in other places, which I will explain. We aren't given any context for when Rev 11 takes place or how long the events take to unfold. Here are some less-than-simple questions concerning the Rev 11 Temple that we must answer to fully understand Rev 11.

1. What is the time frame for the "Temple of God" mentioned in Rev 11?

2. Who are the Gentiles who "tread the Holy City for 42 months?

3. Who/What are the two witnesses?

The last earthly "Temple of God" was destroyed in AD 70. The phrase "Temple of God" appears just 7 times in the NT. The only time where it refers to the earthly (2nd) temple is right here:

Matthew 21:12
Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.

From this point forward, the "Temple of God" is a spiritual term applying to all those who are God's and God's dwelling among them. Notice the lesson Jesus gives concerning the next temple to be built in the below passages. He is not discussing rebuilding an earthly temple.

Matthew 26:61
and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’”

Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

There is no concrete teaching that a 3rd earthly temple will be rebuilt by man regardless of those who want to build it. Jesus says nothing of building a new earthly temple to replace the one He knows will be destroyed. The only teaching of a future temple involves the Kingdom Jesus established on the cross and those of us who are apart of it. Paul's teaching is clear:

1 Corinthians 3:16

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”

The above passage about God dwelling with them and they shall be (HIS) people is made again in many places but look at this next verse as it is critical:

Acts 17:24

“God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.

Please keep this rule in mind - GOD DOES NOT DWELL IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS. Now let's look at Rev 11:

Revelation 11:1

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

Where is John when he was told to measure the "Temple of God?" Keep in mind the 2nd temple was already destroyed by this time. So was John to measure a third earthly temple for which there is no teaching or was he to measure a heavenly temple for which there is teaching?

So where was John?

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

John was in heaven. So what Temple did John see? John tells us exactly where the temple is in the same Chapter 11

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.

BOOM, there you have it. The TEMPLE OF GOD IS IN HEAVEN. I know what you are thinking, "NO WAY" because of the Gentiles, right? Are they good or bad Gentiles?

[SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

John mentions the term "Holy City" four times in Revelation. The first time is in 11:2. First, where is the Holy City?

Revelation 21:2

Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 22:19
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Clearly 3 of the 4 times the Holy City is heavenly. I still haven't answered the issue about the Gentiles. Here you go:

Romans 11:25

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Thus we have a spiritual Temple of God and blindness will continue to happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles have entered the "temple of God" in the Holy City.

Back to Ezekiel's temple and city. Who is residing there? From the last verse:

[SUP]35 [/SUP]All the way around shall be eighteen thousand cubits; and the name of the city from that day shall be: THE LORD IS THERE.”

Remember, the Lord does not dwell in a temple made with hands? What does Zechariah teach?

I will bring the one–third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

Here is the Lord establishing His reign on earth with His saints.

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You....[SUP]8 [/SUP]And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord shall be King over all the earth....Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]The people shall dwell in it...[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Sorry for the long post.

KennethC · Jul 4, 2015

PlainWord said:

The Jews have always disobeyed God and thus were punished by Him for doing so, but were also then brought back to Him and given promises. One of those promises is the land and the Jews will before they come to accept Christ for who He is, they will continue to live by their laws and the rebuilding of the temple so that they can return to observing their temple laws will be done.

The bible says and shows it will be done, so just because you may think God would not approve of it does not mean it won't be done. Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians is not talking about a spiritual temple there, he is talking about an actual rebuilt temple that the man of sin will stand in. A man can not stand inside another person, so the scriptures speaking of us being the temple is the spiritual sense of Christian born again believers and does not apply to the unbelieving Jews at this time.

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2015

KennethC said:

This Holy City???

Revelation 21:2
Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 22:19
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Exactly!! Thank you!!

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2015

Theory.

There is one place, and one place only, where the Bible discusses the Man of Sin standing in a temple and that's in 2 Thes 2. There is no context in this passage about which temple or where it is located. There is no passage that tells us a third man-made temple will be built in Jerusalem. The only future temple we are told about is the Holy City coming down from Heaven.

Paul tells us where Christ is when He is revealed, just one chapter earlier.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]...and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels...

So Christ is revealed from heaven. Why can't the Man of Sin also be revealed from heaven?

We know Satan is up there when the war in heaven breaks out. I'm not talking about a spiritual temple (well I am in a way), I am talking about the Temple in Heaven. The one mentioned throughout Revelation and the one which later comes down to earth.

This temple is in heaven:

Revelation 11:19

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

This temple is in heaven:

Revelation 15:8

The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

This temple is in heaven:

Revelation 16:1

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

Don't we have people worshiping God in heaven here in His temple?

Revelation 7:15
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

So, why can't this temple be in heaven too?

Revelation 11:1

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

When does the rapture occur?

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