THIS IS WAR! END IS NEAR! EPISCOPAL CHURCH APPROVES SAME SEX MARRIAGES

[crossnote]

by Bruce Bawer in his “Stealing Jesus”:

Labels like biblical Christian and Bible-believing Christian, which many conservative Christians attach to themselves, wrongly suggest that there is something unbiblical about the faith of liberal Christians. We might speak of "exclusionists" and "inclusionists," because conservative Christians, unlike liberal Christians, tend to define the word Christian in such a way as to exclude others -- including, in most cases, a large number of their fellow conservative Christians. But it seems to me that the difference between conservative and liberal Christianity may be most succinctly summed up by the difference between two key scriptural concepts: law and love. Simply stated, conservative Christianity focuses primarily on law, doctrine, and authority; liberal Christianity focuses on love, spiritual experience, and what Baptists call the priesthood of the believer. If conservative Christians emphasize the Great Commission -- the resurrected Christ's injunction, at the end of the Gospel according to Matthew, to "go to all nations and make them my disciples" -- liberal Christians place more emphasis on the Great Commandment, which in Luke's Gospel reads as follows: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."

* The Church of Law holds that God loves only the "saved” and that they alone are truly his children; the Church of Love holds that God loves all human beings and that all are his children.

* The Church of Law sees Satan as a real creature, a tempter and deceiver from whom true Christians are defended by their faith but by whom atheists, members of other religions, and "false Christians" are deceived, and whose instruments they can become; for the Church of Love Satan is a metaphor for the potential for evil that exists in each person, Christian or otherwise, and that must be recognized and resisted.

* The Church of Law believes that individuals should be wary of trusting their own minds and emotions, for these can be manipulated by Satan, and that questions and doubts are to be resisted as the work of the Devil; the Church of Love believes that the mind is a gift of God and that God wants us to think for ourselves, to follow our consciences, to ask questions, and to listen for his still, small voice.

* The Church of Law sees "truth" as something established in the Bible and known for sure by true Christians; the Church of Love sees truth as something known wholly only by God toward which the belief statements of religions can only attempt to point the way.

* The Church of Law reads the Bible literally and considers it the ultimate source of truth; the Church of Love insists that the Bible must be read critically, intelligently, and with an understanding of its historical and cultural contexts.

* The Church of Law encourages a suspicion of aesthetic values and a literalistic mentality that tends to thwart spiritual experience; the Church of Love encourages a recognition of mystery and beauty as attributes of the holy.

and the church of liberalism denies or limits miracles, denies God's Word to be truly from God, exalts man's reason above what God has revealed and cloaks the wolf beneath in academic sheepskin while sucking the life blood out of the Church.
JackRT , you are a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Acts 20:28-31 (KJV)
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

 

[Godson13]

Godson13....Didn't you know that where you find four episcopalians, there is always a FIFTH? lol My wife's uncle is a gay episcopalian priest. I am not bragging..I am upset...but...GOD is dealing with this firsthand. IT is NOT your duty or calling to always post the NEGATIVE agendas going on in churches. YOUR CHRISTIAN duty is to go out into the highways and biways and win others over to CHRIST...'bringing in the sheaves", spreading the gospel. Anyone can sit comfortably in their homes and use the internet as a launching pad for their voice to be heard. Frankly, this is not your soap box platform here. YES, each denominational church in AMERICA is not only under attack, but they are full of all kinds of issues...THIS IS OLD NEWS..YOU have not told us anything new. Oh, by the way..guess what...Catholic choir boys have been molested for centuries...including ROck HUDSON, at age 9..and we know how that story ended. If you really want to be effective for CHRIST and not portray yourself as a commander and chief, volunteer at a soup kitchen, Allow the Holy Spirit to use you to be a vessel for others, sharing the gospel and love of JESUS to them. You will develop a more solid relationship with CHRIST, instead of trying to be Little Boy BLUE blowing his horn. We know the sheep are in the meadow and the cows are in the corn. Take your inflated ego elsewhere, like in a political ring or a mercenary to wipe out ISIS.

Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead EXPOSE THEM. And this means that It is MY CHRISTIAN DUTY is to post the NEGATIVE agendas going on in false churches.
And yes i preach on highways and bi ways to win others over to Christ. i have not told you old news, it was only 3 days ago that the Episcopal church committed the abomination of approving same sex marriages. You are wrong when you said that each denominational church in AMERICA is under attack because those churches you claim are under attack are not true churches in the first place. FYI, Catholics, Anglicans and Episcopals don't represent the true church as they are all false churches. but false or not, Catholics, Anglicans and Episcopals have been allowed by true Christians to falsely claim that they are true churches because they haven't really crossed the line yet. for example we all know that the Catholics, Anglicans and Episcopals etc are false churches but we have not fought them because they not crossed the line by doing something extreme. but now that it appears that these false churches starting with the Episcopals then probably Anglicans and then Catholics want to go extreme by permitting same sex marriages then we have to fight them and these false churches can either stop using the name of Jesus in their churches or stop permitting abominations like same sex marriages. What do you mean by saying "Take your inflated ego elsewhere". I am urging Christians to fight evil before it gets to their doorstep and you accuse me of having an inflated ego. you cant possibly be a christian, i am sure you are a false christian that has come to this site to deceive people and you are probably a homosexual.
You Americans should fight the evil satanists in your government first before you fight isis. isis are faraway and isis did not legalize same sex marriages, it was the satanists in your government that did.

 

[ThomistColin]

and the church of liberalism denies or limits miracles, denies God's Word to be truly from God, exalts man's reason above what God has revealed and cloaks the wolf beneath in academic sheepskin while sucking the life blood out of the Church.
JackRT , you are a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Acts 20:28-31 (KJV)
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

My problem crossnote is reading JackRT's statement, I find that the majority of Christians fall in neither camp. Where we would agree with the "Church of Law" on one issue, we would agree with the "Church of Love" on another. Or most mind boggling, agree with both sides at the same time realizing that neither view is exclusive to the other.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Or most mind boggling, agree with both sides at the same time realizing that neither view is exclusive to the other.

 

[crossnote]

My problem crossnote is reading JackRT's statement, I find that the majority of Christians fall in neither camp. Where we would agree with the "Church of Law" on one issue, we would agree with the "Church of Love" on another. Or most mind boggling, agree with both sides at the same time realizing that neither view is exclusive to the other.

I believe Jack is setting up a strawman of sorts by presenting false categories..."The Church of Law vs. the Church of Love. I'll try to impose in red what I mean...
****************************************************

"Labels like biblical Christian and Bible-believing Christian, which many conservative Christians attach to themselves, wrongly suggest that there is something unbiblical about the faith of liberal Christians. We might speak of "exclusionists" and "inclusionists," because conservative Christians, unlike liberal Christians, tend to define the word Christian in such a way as to exclude others -- (It's called differentiating between Truth and nonTruth) including, in most cases, a large number of their fellow conservative Christians. But it seems to me that the difference between conservative and liberal Christianity may be most succinctly summed up by the difference between two key scriptural concepts: law and love.(try Grace and works) Simply stated, conservative Christianity focuses primarily on law, doctrine, and authority; (WRONG, it focuses on the grace found in Jesus Christ) liberal Christianity focuses on love, (mans duty to love) spiritual experience, and what Baptists call the priesthood of the believer. (Please, Conservative Christians tenaciously believe we, individually have access to the Throne of Grace) If conservative Christians emphasize the Great Commission -- the resurrected Christ's injunction, at the end of the Gospel according to Matthew, to "go to all nations and make them my disciples" -- liberal Christians place more emphasis on the Great Commandment, which in Luke's Gospel reads as follows: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." (and this here makes them LAW Christians, the command to love is law...something we do.)

* The Church of Law holds that God loves only the "saved” (LIE. We hold that God loves the world of sinners in sending His Son) and that they alone are truly his children; the Church of Love holds that God loves all human beings and that all are his children. (No where in Scripture are non born again people God's children)

* The Church of Law sees Satan as a real creature, a tempter and deceiver (so should you)from whom true Christians are defended by their faith but by whom atheists, members of other religions, and "false Christians" are deceived, and whose instruments they can become; for the Church of Love Satan is a metaphor for the potential for evil that exists in each person, Christian or otherwise, and that must be recognized and resisted. (that's because satan has blinded your eyes into believing he is a metaphor)

* The Church of Law believes that individuals should be wary of trusting their own minds and emotions, for these can be manipulated by Satan, and that questions and doubts are to be resisted as the work of the Devil; the Church of Love believes that the mind is a gift of God and that God wants us to think for ourselves, to follow our consciences, (we are fallen with a heart desperately wicked apart from Christ's grace) to ask questions, and to listen for his still, small voice.

* The Church of Law sees "truth" as something established in the Bible and known for sure by true Christians; the Church of Love sees truth as something known wholly only by God toward which the belief statements of religions can only attempt to point the way. (So chuck the bible since it is no more truer than other faiths.)
* The Church of Law reads the Bible literally and considers it the ultimate source of truth; (for those who love to spiritualize texts Jack has some fried ice cream he'd love to sell you) the Church of Love insists that the Bible must be read critically, intelligently, and with an understanding of its historical and cultural contexts. (Oh baloney. That's what Conservative scholars do. The liberals are busy in Claremont, Ca. color coding texts deciding which ones are of man and which ones are fakeries of man, too them God did not give us Scripture)

* The Church of Law encourages a suspicion of aesthetic values and a literalistic mentality that tends to thwart spiritual experience;(that's not been my experience, heard a Bach Cantata lately?) the Church of Love encourages a recognition of mystery and beauty as attributes of the holy." (smells and bells why denying God's Word)

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

He's obviously grossly misinformed crossnote and making one false assertion after another. I wonder if he's even interested in the truth or, like most, content to continue being deceived and deceiving.

 

[JackRT]

Is this a fancy way of saying they don't believe the clear and evident reading of the scriptures and reserve the right to change the meaning of scripture to suite themselves? Because that's exactly what I read

A very great deal of scripture is not clear and evident and in fact some scripture read in this way destroys the intended meanings. Some advise to 'read in context' but even reading several verses before and after is not sufficient. A full context would include an understanding of Jewish history and culture, of their religious beliefs and traditions and also of the Jewish literary traditions. An understanding of all of this can lead us into drawing quite different conclusions from some stories than most people are used to.

The idea that the bible was to be read literally actually entered Christian thought sometime early in the second century when the church underwent a transition from its early Jewish roots into a Gentile largely Greek speaking church. With this transition they lost the bility to read scripture "with Jewish eyes" and became literalists. We could call this the Gentile Heresy. This heresy is still alive and well in parts of the church.

 

[SarahM777]

Antinomianism takes a biblical teaching to an unbiblical conclusion. Antinomianism is contrary to everything the Bible teaches. God expects us to live a life of morality, integrity, and love. Jesus Christ freed us from the ceremonial burdens of the Mosaic Law; however, God's HOLY morality is eternal and unchanging. Read John 2:3-6 and 1 John 3:2-10.

In systematic theology, not to be confused with the cherry picking of scripture that you're engaging in, God's holiness cannot be uncoupled from God's love/grace and cast aside. With the arrival of the Messiah (e.g. Jesus Christ) a New Covenant was established and the Old Covenant fulfilled; however, God's HOLY morality did not change as God's HOLY morality is an extension of Himself and God Himself does not change (e.g. immutability see Malachi 3:6).

As 1 Thessalonians 4 states:

"It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality" noting that "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people."

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person-such a person is an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them." -Ephesians 5:3-7.

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." -1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

When people claim to be spiritually regenerated (e.g. born again) (and therefore falling under God's divine love, grace, and forgiveness of sin) but then cast aside God's holiness to live wicked sinful lives marked by immorality such as homosexuality which New Testament biblical authors like John condemn; those same biblical authors state that the very regeneration of those people should be doubted for their life shows that they are still a child of the devil living in an unregenerate state as Jesus taught (see Matthew 7:15-23).

SarahM777, your false argument that people can engage in whatever immoral behaviors they wish to without incurring God's judgment and resulting consequence (e.g. antinomianism) was soundly refuted by biblical authors such as Paul, Jude, Peter, etc... in the HOLY Bible and the false teachers that crept in and taught this heresy were condemned by these biblical authors as I already explained to you in post #28 and #36.

You're teaching heresy and pulling verses out of context from the rest of scripture to try and justify it but you've been soundly refuted. Why don't you give it a rest before I start reporting you to the moderators for wrongly teaching blatant heresy which promotes sexual immorality in violation of this forum's rules.

The very root of what you are speaking of there is OUT OF AGAPE LOVE. One that is living out Agape love will be moral,have integrity and love. Agape love is the root of all of that. One that is living in Agape law will NOT be sexually immoral,steal,murder,commit adultery, take God's name in vain,make idols,have another God before Him,covet or the whole host of any other sin. Agape love is our response to both God and man because He first loved us and transformed our hearts and made us a new creation.

If you had said people use GRACE as a license for sin,I would be in agreement with you. Whatever you are speaking on is NOT AGAPE LOVE but some other form of "love or whatever" it is Agape love that teaches us to say no to UNGODLINESS. Paul is very clear that this is what Agape love does and does not do.

1 Corinthians 13

13 If I speak in the tongues[SUP][a][/SUP] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[SUP][b][/SUP] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
[SUP]4[/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6[/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Does that passage anywhere promote sexual immorality?

Galatians 5

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? [SUP]8 [/SUP]That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. [SUP]9 [/SUP]“A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. [SUP]12 [/SUP]As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
[SUP]13 [/SUP]You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[SUP][a][/SUP]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]15 [/SUP]If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[SUP][c][/SUP] you want. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions [SUP]21 [/SUP]and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

How about this one?


SarahM777, your false argument that people can engage in whatever immoral behaviors they wish to without incurring God's judgment and resulting consequence (e.g. antinomianism) was soundly refuted by biblical authors such as Paul, Jude, Peter, etc... in the HOLY Bible and the false teachers that crept in and taught this heresy were condemned by these biblical authors as I already explained to you in post #28 and #36.

I have NEVER said one can continue in the manner they are living without incurring all the consequences,you are the one that said I said it. And again what I said is that AGAPE LOVE CAN NOT SIN. If one says that Agape love says that one can do whatever they want without the consequences is a lie. It's something else BUT NOT AGAPE LOVE.

 

[Mitspa]

A very great deal of scripture is not clear and evident and in fact some scripture read in this way destroys the intended meanings. Some advise to 'read in context' but even reading several verses before and after is not sufficient. A full context would include an understanding of Jewish history and culture, of their religious beliefs and traditions and also of the Jewish literary traditions. An understanding of all of this can lead us into drawing quite different conclusions from some stories than most people are used to.

The idea that the bible was to be read literally actually entered Christian thought sometime early in the second century when the church underwent a transition from its early Jewish roots into a Gentile largely Greek speaking church. With this transition they lost the bility to read scripture "with Jewish eyes" and became literalists. We could call this the Gentile Heresy. This heresy is still alive and well in parts of the church.

First I agree that some things are not as clear but some things are made very clear and very evident throughout all scripture. Anyone promoting homosexuality has to completely ignore the evident truth of the scriptures. You do understand that the New Testament was written in Greek and was reaching the world in the Greek...so im not sure where you come up with some of your statements ? You seem to just believe whatever you need or want to believe.

 

[SarahM777]

And to take it further you CAN NOT SAY you Agape love Christ and NOT OBEY HIM. Jesus makes that perfectly clear here

John 14

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love me, keep my commands. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— [SUP]17 [/SUP]the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[SUP][c][/SUP] in you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“All this I have spoken while still with you. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. [SUP]29 [/SUP]I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, [SUP]31 [/SUP]but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

Jesus very clearly equates loving Him with obeying Him. You CAN NOT separate the two,they go hand in hand. Agape love will obey Him.

 

[NewWine]

sue the episcopal church for defamation.

1 Corinthians 6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?
When we have saints sitting as Judge in the Courts of the Land on Earth, then eh maybe suing someone will help......Until then, I don't expect everyone else to agree with me, so why would this surprise me, shock me, or scare me into going against the Bible?
Rely on God for your peace, not the Episcopalians (more flawed humans).
Peace!!

 

[kedge]

Chritendom is confusing.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Preach the Word
2 Timothy1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season;REPROVE, REBUKE, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,…

Ephesians 5:11Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

Wonderful quotes, but all are lifted out of context and have no bearing on the issue of "fighting" an apostate church. Apostasy is necessary for Christ to return (2 Thessalonians 2:3), and what we as Christians are to do is to cling to biblical truth and make our churches a beacon for that truth. We will not overcome apostasy by making war on it. We will only overcome apostasy by shining the light of Jesus on it so it can be see for the lie that it is.

 

[kenthomas27]

The following is extracted from Homosexuality and the Bible by the late Walter Wink
Professor of Biblical Interpretation, Auburn Theological Seminary, New York City.

I have to confess that I really struggle with the "acceptance" of homosexuality and especially that of same sex marriage and such, but I will also say that Walter Wink's short essay was really shallow and contradictory (imo) for a guy who's a studied biblical interpreter. I mean, on the one hand Wink chides Paul for ignorance of the "modern psychological understanding" of homosexuality, then goes on to say that "no one really knows" the reason either, then he says it's either "...by genetics or upbringing..." and concludes the reason is immaterial! It kind of reminds me (and I just got finished studying Ecclesiastes) of the vanity of nothing that is new under the sun. Wink has no more understanding of this than Paul did and I think THAT is real tragedy. I don't really know how much study has been involved with homosexuality but it just seems like more should be done? LBGT activities are clearly a perversion, not only by biblical standards, but by most human standards and they're an affront to the dignity of people who engage in them (even when they feel like they can't stop) and the whole reason for this kind of heated debate. Seems like we ought to HELP these people - not just "accept" this behavior and try to reckon it as normal! Do we accept ANY psychological anomaly as normal?

This thing has to be really hard on homosexuals and probably why they fight so hard to find acceptance. I mean, who would choose such an awful existence unless you simply immersed yourself in like-minded people? I'd look for new and different interpretations of the bible my own self if I were in their shoes. They have NO alternative except celibacy! Of course most fail.

i just think we're actually doing then a disservice by suggesting their behavior is acceptable, but we really need to work on finding the physical/psychological - whatever - reason for this.

 

[psalm6819]

by Bruce Bawer in his “Stealing Jesus”:

Labels like biblical Christian and Bible-believing Christian, which many conservative Christians attach to themselves, wrongly suggest that there is something unbiblical about the faith of liberal Christians. We might speak of "exclusionists" and "inclusionists," because conservative Christians, unlike liberal Christians, tend to define the word Christian in such a way as to exclude others -- including, in most cases, a large number of their fellow conservative Christians. But it seems to me that the difference between conservative and liberal Christianity may be most succinctly summed up by the difference between two key scriptural concepts: law and love. Simply stated, conservative Christianity focuses primarily on law, doctrine, and authority; liberal Christianity focuses on love, spiritual experience, and what Baptists call the priesthood of the believer. If conservative Christians emphasize the Great Commission -- the resurrected Christ's injunction, at the end of the Gospel according to Matthew, to "go to all nations and make them my disciples" -- liberal Christians place more emphasis on the Great Commandment, which in Luke's Gospel reads as follows: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."

* The Church of Law holds that God loves only the "saved” and that they alone are truly his children; the Church of Love holds that God loves all human beings and that all are his children.

* The Church of Law sees Satan as a real creature, a tempter and deceiver from whom true Christians are defended by their faith but by whom atheists, members of other religions, and "false Christians" are deceived, and whose instruments they can become; for the Church of Love Satan is a metaphor for the potential for evil that exists in each person, Christian or otherwise, and that must be recognized and resisted.

* The Church of Law believes that individuals should be wary of trusting their own minds and emotions, for these can be manipulated by Satan, and that questions and doubts are to be resisted as the work of the Devil; the Church of Love believes that the mind is a gift of God and that God wants us to think for ourselves, to follow our consciences, to ask questions, and to listen for his still, small voice.

* The Church of Law sees "truth" as something established in the Bible and known for sure by true Christians; the Church of Love sees truth as something known wholly only by God toward which the belief statements of religions can only attempt to point the way.

* The Church of Law reads the Bible literally and considers it the ultimate source of truth; the Church of Love insists that the Bible must be read critically, intelligently, and with an understanding of its historical and cultural contexts.

* The Church of Law encourages a suspicion of aesthetic values and a literalistic mentality that tends to thwart spiritual experience; the Church of Love encourages a recognition of mystery and beauty as attributes of the holy.

Double baloney

 

[psalm6819]

A very great deal of scripture is not clear and evident and in fact some scripture read in this way destroys the intended meanings. Some advise to 'read in context' but even reading several verses before and after is not sufficient. A full context would include an understanding of Jewish history and culture, of their religious beliefs and traditions and also of the Jewish literary traditions. An understanding of all of this can lead us into drawing quite different conclusions from some stories than most people are used to.

The idea that the bible was to be read literally actually entered Christian thought sometime early in the second century when the church underwent a transition from its early Jewish roots into a Gentile largely Greek speaking church. With this transition they lost the bility to read scripture "with Jewish eyes" and became literalists. We could call this the Gentile Heresy. This heresy is still alive and well in parts of the church.[/QUOTE

Wrong, the Holy Spirit helps us to understand and often further study will clarify that which seems comtradictory or unclear.

 

[Mitspa]

I have to confess that I really struggle with the "acceptance" of homosexuality and especially that of same sex marriage and such, but I will also say that Walter Wink's short essay was really shallow and contradictory (imo) for a guy who's a studied biblical interpreter. I mean, on the one hand Wink chides Paul for ignorance of the "modern psychological understanding" of homosexuality, then goes on to say that "no one really knows" the reason either, then he says it's either "...by genetics or upbringing..." and concludes the reason is immaterial! It kind of reminds me (and I just got finished studying Ecclesiastes) of the vanity of nothing that is new under the sun. Wink has no more understanding of this than Paul did and I think THAT is real tragedy. I don't really know how much study has been involved with homosexuality but it just seems like more should be done? LBGT activities are clearly a perversion, not only by biblical standards, but by most human standards and they're an affront to the dignity of people who engage in them (even when they feel like they can't stop) and the whole reason for this kind of heated debate. Seems like we ought to HELP these people - not just "accept" this behavior and try to reckon it as normal! Do we accept ANY psychological anomaly as normal?

This thing has to be really hard on homosexuals and probably why they fight so hard to find acceptance. I mean, who would choose such an awful existence unless you simply immersed yourself in like-minded people? I'd look for new and different interpretations of the bible my own self if I were in their shoes. They have NO alternative except celibacy! Of course most fail.

i just think we're actually doing then a disservice by suggesting their behavior is acceptable, but we really need to work on finding the physical/psychological - whatever - reason for this.

I was born a sinner..a slave to sin...psychology will never accept the truth about sin and why the scriptures tell us we need a Savior from our sin.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I was born a sinner..a slave to sin...psychology will never accept the truth about sin and why the scriptures tell us we need a Savior from our sin.

Depends on who the psychologist is. Dr. Aaron Beck, still alive and kicking at 93, soon to be 94 IJuly 18), is the father of cognitive-behavioral theory. He is also a good ol' Southern Baptist, just like me. He callled his concept "Cognitive-Behavioral Theory" and developed from it Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, because he knew the American Psychological Association would not accept a biblically-based concept of behavior, it's cause, and how to overcome bad behavior.

Yet his concepts and theories are solidly grounded in the Bible. He put on over one the APA when he got the overall thesis accepted by the organization as a valid explanation for behavior, and for therapy geared to correct it. The entire theory rests on the entirety of God's word, but can be summed up by one Bible verse.

Psalm 23, NASB
7(a) For as he thinks within himself, so he is.​

​

 

[Mitspa]

Depends on who the psychologist is. Dr. Aaron Beck, still alive and kicking at 93, soon to be 94 IJuly 18), is the father of cognitive-behavioral theory. He is also a good ol' Southern Baptist, just like me. He callled his concept "Cognitive-Behavioral Theory" and developed from it Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, because he knew the American Psychological Association would not accept a biblically-based concept of behavior, it's cause, and how to overcome bad behavior.

Yet his concepts and theories are solidly grounded in the Bible. He put on over one the APA when he got the overall thesis accepted by the organization as a valid explanation for behavior, and for therapy geared to correct it. The entire theory rests on the entirety of God's word, but can be summed up by one Bible verse.

Psalm 23, NASB
7(a) For as he thinks within himself, so he is.​

​

It sounds good..I would have to know more about it to judge?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

It sounds good..I would have to know more about it to judge?

Hard to find those facts online. You have to read the work by one of his former students, Alexis Trader, Ancient Christian Wisdom and Aaron Beck's Cognitive Therapy: A Meeting of Minds (American University Studies). It examines Beck's journey seeking a biblically based concept of personality and treating disorders through Christian principles that the APA would acknowledge. His peers don't like to mention the truth about his theories.