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Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes,
and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord,
saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.
25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean:
from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you,
and [cause you to walk] in [my statutes], and ye shall [keep my judgments],
and do them.
- a future time when the spirit is given, and cause or force? them to keep his statues and do them.
28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people,
and I will be your God.
Tit 3:5-7
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
KJV
I suggest you reread verse 7. IMO it does NOT speak of Salvation; it speaks of our inheritance as those who are saved.
It inforns us that upon the resurrection (or the rapture) there is an inheritance which awaits us far beyond what we have already received.
Sparkman you seem very determined to disprove the keeping of Sabbath. Maybe you were hurt by a commandment keeper or you seen that they were trying to work their way to heaven, maybe they made the Sabbath a salvational condition. But be careful that you don't become all consumed by it and forget that we all find our salvation in JESUS not in disproving or proving doctrines. Its good to share our opinions but remember it is the Holy Spirit that converts and convinces us.
And can i ask is there anything wrong with Keeping the Sabbath because you LOVE Jesus?
If i find joy and a blessing in keeping the Sabbath then how can you argue that i don't/ shouldn't /can't have that?
Why do you choose not to kill? If i keep the Sabbath for the same reason then i see no fault in keeping the Sabbath.
And can i ask is there anything wrong with Keeping the Sabbath because you LOVE Jesus?
If i find joy and a blessing in keeping the Sabbath then how can you argue that i don't/ shouldn't /can't have that?
Why do you choose not to kill? If i keep the Sabbath for the same reason then i see no fault in keeping the Sabbath.
If you wish to observe the Sabbath out of love for God, there is nothing wrong with that. But if someone feels that by doing they are somewhat superior, or that others who do not are somewhat inferior, then it becomes a sin.
Speaking to all. Even James and his fellow Jewish Christians did not enjoin the Sabbath on the Gentiles. The Sabbath was enjoined on the physical nation of Israel. It is this only binding on those who see themselves as part of the physical nation of Israel. Nowhere is observance of it enjoined in the New Testament. The position is therefore quite clear. Citing Old Testament statements about physical Israel is therefore pointless.
Speaking to all. Even James and his fellow Jewish Christians did not enjoin the Sabbath on the Gentiles. The Sabbath was enjoined on the physical nation of Israel. It is this only binding on those who see themselves as part of the physical nation of Israel. Nowhere is observance of it enjoined in the New Testament. The position is therefore quite clear. Citing Old Testament statements about physical Israel is therefore pointless.
S
The other nine commandments are moral absolutes, and to violate them is a sin. Sabbathkeeping is not a moral absolute. It is a ceremonial or ritualistic law that was a sign of the Old Covenant.
The two signs of the Old Covenant were circumcision and the Sabbath. Circumcision is the one-time entry sign into the Old Covenant, and Sabbath was the continuing, remembrance sign of the Old Covenant.
The two signs of the New Covenant are baptism and the Lord's Supper. Baptism is the one-time entry sign into the New Covenant, and the Lord's Supper is the continuing, remembrance sing of the New Covenant.
I have no issue with those who keep the Sabbath. My issue is with individuals who claim it is a condition, requirement, or necessary fruit of salvation.
I also think individuals need to follow their own conscience if they believe Sabbath-breaking is a sin. However, they should do so quietly and not try to inflict judgment on others for not keeping it.
The tendency, though, is for such individuals to judge other non-Sabbathkeepers or those who don't observe other elements of the Old Covenant such as the festivals or clean and unclean meats. Colossians 2:16-17 refers to this tendency to judge. I will not go into all the details regarding this, but if you compare these verses to Hebrews 10:1-2, you will see that the same language of "shadows" is used in regards to the Sabbath and holy days as Hebrews uses with regards to animal sacrifices and the entire Old Covenant law.
Since those without a Sabbath or festival keeping history are unable to evaluate the assertions of Sabbathkeepers who are trying to get them to keep these elements as a continuing obligation, I simply present the flawed nature of the arguments.
I was a member of Worldwide Church of God and was a Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat laws observer for over 10 years. I know the typical doctrinal foundation that many Sabbathkeepers have, so I am equipped to deal with the arguments. My experience there was bittersweet; there were some positive aspects and some negative aspects.
At any rate, your remarks indicate that you put Sabbath-breaking on the same level as murder. That is a typical rhetorical point that Sabbathkeepers use. I might ask you why the sin lists to the Gentiles never mention Sabbath-breaking if the Sabbath continued to apply. The conspicuous absence is glaring.
The two signs of the Old Covenant were circumcision and the Sabbath. Circumcision is the one-time entry sign into the Old Covenant, and Sabbath was the continuing, remembrance sign of the Old Covenant.
The two signs of the New Covenant are baptism and the Lord's Supper. Baptism is the one-time entry sign into the New Covenant, and the Lord's Supper is the continuing, remembrance sing of the New Covenant.
I have no issue with those who keep the Sabbath. My issue is with individuals who claim it is a condition, requirement, or necessary fruit of salvation.
I also think individuals need to follow their own conscience if they believe Sabbath-breaking is a sin. However, they should do so quietly and not try to inflict judgment on others for not keeping it.
The tendency, though, is for such individuals to judge other non-Sabbathkeepers or those who don't observe other elements of the Old Covenant such as the festivals or clean and unclean meats. Colossians 2:16-17 refers to this tendency to judge. I will not go into all the details regarding this, but if you compare these verses to Hebrews 10:1-2, you will see that the same language of "shadows" is used in regards to the Sabbath and holy days as Hebrews uses with regards to animal sacrifices and the entire Old Covenant law.
Since those without a Sabbath or festival keeping history are unable to evaluate the assertions of Sabbathkeepers who are trying to get them to keep these elements as a continuing obligation, I simply present the flawed nature of the arguments.
I was a member of Worldwide Church of God and was a Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat laws observer for over 10 years. I know the typical doctrinal foundation that many Sabbathkeepers have, so I am equipped to deal with the arguments. My experience there was bittersweet; there were some positive aspects and some negative aspects.
At any rate, your remarks indicate that you put Sabbath-breaking on the same level as murder. That is a typical rhetorical point that Sabbathkeepers use. I might ask you why the sin lists to the Gentiles never mention Sabbath-breaking if the Sabbath continued to apply. The conspicuous absence is glaring.
S
I already responded to this same argument. You tend to present the same things over and over again.
The Law or Torah defined the details of God's agreement with the nation of Israel. The Law does not apply to New Covenant Christians.
The prophets were used to accuse Israel and to urge them to repentance when they violated the terms of the Old Covenant.
Israel agreed to keep all of the Old Covenant, including the Sabbaths, Holy Days, circumcision, animal sacrifices and clean/unclean meat laws.
They were not faithful in obeying the elements of the Old Covenant. That is why so much of the prophets focus on these topics. They were God's prosecuting attorneys in a sense.
So, any reference that they made to the breaking of these elements of the Old Covenant are irrelevant to Christians, who are under the New Covenant.
In addition, they prophesied a restored relationship between mankind and Israel in a manner that Israelites could understand. They themselves also viewed everything through the spectacles of the Old Covenant. So, they foresaw a restored relationship with God which included the Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meat laws, and even animal sacrifices.
I do not think animal sacrifices will be offered during the Millennium, nor do I think that the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws will apply. At any rate, though, if one tries to use the Millennial practices of the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws as proof that they still apply today, they must also be consistent and maintain that animal sacrifices should be offered today.
Dispensationists disagree with me on this point, and would say that these things do apply in the Millennium but that they don't apply today.
At any rate, the Sabbath and festival keeper must maintain that animal sacrifices apply today if they want to remain consistent with their argumentation concerning millennial practices. In addition, they must deal with the fact that New Covenant Christians are not parties to the Old Covenant that God instituted between Himself and the nation of lsrael.
The Law or Torah defined the details of God's agreement with the nation of Israel. The Law does not apply to New Covenant Christians.
The prophets were used to accuse Israel and to urge them to repentance when they violated the terms of the Old Covenant.
Israel agreed to keep all of the Old Covenant, including the Sabbaths, Holy Days, circumcision, animal sacrifices and clean/unclean meat laws.
They were not faithful in obeying the elements of the Old Covenant. That is why so much of the prophets focus on these topics. They were God's prosecuting attorneys in a sense.
So, any reference that they made to the breaking of these elements of the Old Covenant are irrelevant to Christians, who are under the New Covenant.
In addition, they prophesied a restored relationship between mankind and Israel in a manner that Israelites could understand. They themselves also viewed everything through the spectacles of the Old Covenant. So, they foresaw a restored relationship with God which included the Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meat laws, and even animal sacrifices.
I do not think animal sacrifices will be offered during the Millennium, nor do I think that the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws will apply. At any rate, though, if one tries to use the Millennial practices of the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws as proof that they still apply today, they must also be consistent and maintain that animal sacrifices should be offered today.
Dispensationists disagree with me on this point, and would say that these things do apply in the Millennium but that they don't apply today.
At any rate, the Sabbath and festival keeper must maintain that animal sacrifices apply today if they want to remain consistent with their argumentation concerning millennial practices. In addition, they must deal with the fact that New Covenant Christians are not parties to the Old Covenant that God instituted between Himself and the nation of lsrael.
S
Read the context of that verse.
There is nothing about the Old Covenant Law involved in that verse.
Matthew 24: 32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
No one claims that the teachings of Jesus Christ are done away with. The Old Covenant is done away with.
You are engaging in collapsing the context. You can't simply pluck a verse from one place that has no bearing on teachings regarding the Old Covenant.
There is nothing about the Old Covenant Law involved in that verse.
Matthew 24: 32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
No one claims that the teachings of Jesus Christ are done away with. The Old Covenant is done away with.
You are engaging in collapsing the context. You can't simply pluck a verse from one place that has no bearing on teachings regarding the Old Covenant.
- please show me where you have ever replied to this question?
27And I will put my spirit within you,
and [cause you to walk] in [my statutes],
and ye shall [keep my judgments], and do them.
- a future time when the spirit is given, and cause or force [them to keep his statues] and do them.
28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people,
27And I will put my spirit within you,
and [cause you to walk] in [my statutes],
and ye shall [keep my judgments], and do them.
- a future time when the spirit is given, and cause or force [them to keep his statues] and do them.
28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people,
S
He clearly spoke to the crowds. Matthew 7:28 says the following, after the preaching to the multitude:
Matt 7:28 [SUP]28 [/SUP]When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, [SUP]29 [/SUP]because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
Matt 7:28 [SUP]28 [/SUP]When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, [SUP]29 [/SUP]because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
S
There is a past, present and future tense to salvation. We were saved at conversion, and we are being saved through sanctification, and we will be saved at glorification.
This is a point that many Armstrongites contest. They view their salvation similar to God impregnating a believer. They are gods in embryonic form, like the Mormons believe. They are being perfected through sanctification, and if God doesn't decide to abort them, they will be "born again" at the resurrection, as a full God being, part of the Godhead.
That is the context of this guy's remark, for those of you who don't speak Armstrongese.
The view denies that believers have eternal life now, and also proposes that bellievers will be part of the Godhead in the resurrection. By "believers" they mean themselves, not other "so-called Christians" who do not keep the Sabbath, holy days, and clean/unclean meat laws.
John 5:24 and many other verses deny this view.
This is a point that many Armstrongites contest. They view their salvation similar to God impregnating a believer. They are gods in embryonic form, like the Mormons believe. They are being perfected through sanctification, and if God doesn't decide to abort them, they will be "born again" at the resurrection, as a full God being, part of the Godhead.
That is the context of this guy's remark, for those of you who don't speak Armstrongese.
The view denies that believers have eternal life now, and also proposes that bellievers will be part of the Godhead in the resurrection. By "believers" they mean themselves, not other "so-called Christians" who do not keep the Sabbath, holy days, and clean/unclean meat laws.
John 5:24 and many other verses deny this view.
If the Sabbath or Friday evening was the time God wanted me to have an appointment, just with me, I wouldn´t say "NO" because I had another date with someone else.
If the Saturday or Sunday morning was the time God and his Son Jesus wanted me to be gathered with other believers, to say "hello" or to share a good moment of prayers, I don´t fit enough if that was neglected and, it seems obvious (just for Him) I don´t belong to His kingdom if I don´t follow up what He said.
If Jesus and His disciples did gathered a particular day of the week... Who am I to say "no" to what He said "Yes"?
Mat 12:7 Don't you know what the Scriptures mean when they say, "Instead of offering sacrifices to me, I want you to be merciful to others?" If you knew what this means, you would not condemn these innocent disciples of mine.
Mat 12:8 So the Son of Man is Lord over the Sabbath.
Mat 12:9 Jesus left and went into one of the Jewish meeting places,
If the Saturday or Sunday morning was the time God and his Son Jesus wanted me to be gathered with other believers, to say "hello" or to share a good moment of prayers, I don´t fit enough if that was neglected and, it seems obvious (just for Him) I don´t belong to His kingdom if I don´t follow up what He said.
If Jesus and His disciples did gathered a particular day of the week... Who am I to say "no" to what He said "Yes"?
Mat 12:7 Don't you know what the Scriptures mean when they say, "Instead of offering sacrifices to me, I want you to be merciful to others?" If you knew what this means, you would not condemn these innocent disciples of mine.
Mat 12:8 So the Son of Man is Lord over the Sabbath.
Mat 12:9 Jesus left and went into one of the Jewish meeting places,
S
Luke 4:16 is a mention of Jesus reading the Old Testament in the synagogue. Jesus was a Jew under the Law and did keep
the Old Covenant laws, including the Sabbath.
Luke 23:55-56 relates to two Jewish women who rested on the Sabbath after the crucifixion. Jewish believers did not discontinue keeping elements of the Old Covenant Law even as late as Acts 21 was written. Those elements were not
required of Gentile believers, though. Colossians 2:16-17 and Acts 15 speaks to this issue. I do not deny that Jewish believers, including the apostle Paul, continued to observe elements of the Old Covenant. However, they did not do so for
salvation purposes; they did so for cultural reasons or to further the cause of the Gospel. Requiring such observances of Gentiles was the error of the Judaizers in Galatians, as well as the false teaching of those in Colossians 2 who were trying to force Gentiles to observe them.
Acts 17:1-2 Paul taught in the synagogues on the Sabbath. The synagogues were a fertile mission field for evangelism. In addition, he was a Jew who continued to observe some elements of the Old Covenant, but not for salvation. It was a matter
of his preference and his culture. I would argue that he lived in a different manner when he was amongst Gentiles based on I Cor 9:20ff:
I Cor 9:20-22 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.…
Hebrews 4:9 I have written a thread on Hebrews 4. The summary is that Jesus Christ and placing our faith in him as our spiritual rest is what Hebrews 4 is discussing here. A special word sabbatismos is used here for Sabbath-rest. It is the only place this word is used in Scripture...sabbaton is used elsewhere. I contend that this special use of the word is due to the nature of the rest that it is describing, which is not the weekly Sabbath, but it is the rest in Christ which believers enjoy when they place their faith in Him. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Sabbath:
Matthew 11:28-30 28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115326-hebrews-4-9-real-sabbath-jesus.html
I John 2:6 says whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. The question would be, in what respect? Jesus was a Jew under the Old Covenant. He was also physically circumcised..does that mean I need to become physically circumcised? He died a gruesome death on the Cross to secure the salvation of mankind..does that mean that I need to do the same thing? He wore tassels on his garments as a Torah observer..does that mean that I need to do the same thing?
More importantly, Colossians 2:6-7 calls the Sabbath, New Moon observances, and annual festivals to be shadows and not the Reality, which is Christ. Comparing Colossians 2:6-7 with Hebrews 10:1-2 is very instructive in this regard. Hebews 10:1-2 applies to animal sacrifices, and calls them shadows rather than the Reality, which is in Christ. Colosssians 2:16-17 uses the exact same language in regards to the Sabbath. It is so obvious that the SDAs know this and say that the Greek word for Sabbath in Colossians 2:16-17 doesn't refer to the weekly Sabbath, but they acknowledge that in the other 59 places it's used in the NT, it refers to the weekly Sabbath. Their reasoning is inconsistent, but they know that it would be very clear-cut that the weekly Sabbath no longer applies if they acknowledged this.
In brief, though, I understand your position as it was the fundamental point that convinced me to be a Sabbathkeeper..it's in the Ten Commandments so it still applies. The logic is flawed in that the entire Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments, is done away with. The other nine still apply as they are moral absolutes, but not because they were a part of the Ten Commandments; it's because they are moral absolutes and are reiterated in some way in the apostolic teachings.
One other strong argument concerning the Sabbath is that Sabbath-breaking was never mentioned in any of the sin lists to the Gentiles, although many sins were. The glaring absence of this mention is indicative that it did not carry over into the New Covenant. Also, if slaves with unbelieving masters were added to the church, I am sure this issue would have been important. Unbelieving masters wouldn't have simply allowed them a day off due to their new faith.
Another point of reasoning is how does one observe the Sabbath in climates where it is perpetually dark or perpetually light for long periods of the year? Ellen G. White's solution to this was that no believers were allowed to live in these areas. Or..how would a person who is in a space station orbiting the earth observe the Sabbath? The legalism that is involved in making these sorts of determinations is absurd.
The same is not true of laws that are based on moral absolutes, such as sexual sin. It's a sin no matter where you are at. It is not relative to location.
the Old Covenant laws, including the Sabbath.
Luke 23:55-56 relates to two Jewish women who rested on the Sabbath after the crucifixion. Jewish believers did not discontinue keeping elements of the Old Covenant Law even as late as Acts 21 was written. Those elements were not
required of Gentile believers, though. Colossians 2:16-17 and Acts 15 speaks to this issue. I do not deny that Jewish believers, including the apostle Paul, continued to observe elements of the Old Covenant. However, they did not do so for
salvation purposes; they did so for cultural reasons or to further the cause of the Gospel. Requiring such observances of Gentiles was the error of the Judaizers in Galatians, as well as the false teaching of those in Colossians 2 who were trying to force Gentiles to observe them.
Acts 17:1-2 Paul taught in the synagogues on the Sabbath. The synagogues were a fertile mission field for evangelism. In addition, he was a Jew who continued to observe some elements of the Old Covenant, but not for salvation. It was a matter
of his preference and his culture. I would argue that he lived in a different manner when he was amongst Gentiles based on I Cor 9:20ff:
I Cor 9:20-22 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.…
Hebrews 4:9 I have written a thread on Hebrews 4. The summary is that Jesus Christ and placing our faith in him as our spiritual rest is what Hebrews 4 is discussing here. A special word sabbatismos is used here for Sabbath-rest. It is the only place this word is used in Scripture...sabbaton is used elsewhere. I contend that this special use of the word is due to the nature of the rest that it is describing, which is not the weekly Sabbath, but it is the rest in Christ which believers enjoy when they place their faith in Him. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Sabbath:
Matthew 11:28-30 28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115326-hebrews-4-9-real-sabbath-jesus.html
I John 2:6 says whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. The question would be, in what respect? Jesus was a Jew under the Old Covenant. He was also physically circumcised..does that mean I need to become physically circumcised? He died a gruesome death on the Cross to secure the salvation of mankind..does that mean that I need to do the same thing? He wore tassels on his garments as a Torah observer..does that mean that I need to do the same thing?
More importantly, Colossians 2:6-7 calls the Sabbath, New Moon observances, and annual festivals to be shadows and not the Reality, which is Christ. Comparing Colossians 2:6-7 with Hebrews 10:1-2 is very instructive in this regard. Hebews 10:1-2 applies to animal sacrifices, and calls them shadows rather than the Reality, which is in Christ. Colosssians 2:16-17 uses the exact same language in regards to the Sabbath. It is so obvious that the SDAs know this and say that the Greek word for Sabbath in Colossians 2:16-17 doesn't refer to the weekly Sabbath, but they acknowledge that in the other 59 places it's used in the NT, it refers to the weekly Sabbath. Their reasoning is inconsistent, but they know that it would be very clear-cut that the weekly Sabbath no longer applies if they acknowledged this.
In brief, though, I understand your position as it was the fundamental point that convinced me to be a Sabbathkeeper..it's in the Ten Commandments so it still applies. The logic is flawed in that the entire Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments, is done away with. The other nine still apply as they are moral absolutes, but not because they were a part of the Ten Commandments; it's because they are moral absolutes and are reiterated in some way in the apostolic teachings.
One other strong argument concerning the Sabbath is that Sabbath-breaking was never mentioned in any of the sin lists to the Gentiles, although many sins were. The glaring absence of this mention is indicative that it did not carry over into the New Covenant. Also, if slaves with unbelieving masters were added to the church, I am sure this issue would have been important. Unbelieving masters wouldn't have simply allowed them a day off due to their new faith.
Another point of reasoning is how does one observe the Sabbath in climates where it is perpetually dark or perpetually light for long periods of the year? Ellen G. White's solution to this was that no believers were allowed to live in these areas. Or..how would a person who is in a space station orbiting the earth observe the Sabbath? The legalism that is involved in making these sorts of determinations is absurd.
The same is not true of laws that are based on moral absolutes, such as sexual sin. It's a sin no matter where you are at. It is not relative to location.
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