I will complain loudly when you label [Sabbathkeeping as cults] like you just did again
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I will complain loudly when you label [Sabbathkeeping as cults] like you just did again
S
sparkman
Guest
Go ahead. Sabbathkeeping is not a cult. There are Sabbathkeeping cults like Armstrongites. Armstrongism is easily identified as a cult due to its aberrant teachings.
I do not label all Sabbathkeepers as members of a cult. MarcR for example is a Sabbathkeeper and he attends a fellowship much like my own.
I do not label all Sabbathkeepers as members of a cult. MarcR for example is a Sabbathkeeper and he attends a fellowship much like my own.
S
sparkman
Guest
Besides this, do you really think that your complaints will make much difference if you say that we as Protestants are following a counterfeit form of Christianity?
the wording [ Sabbathkeeping cults] I loudly just complained
because you in this statement, like may others you have made offends me.
if you want to call armstrong a colt thats your beef,
but you continue to post the phrase [sabbathkeeping colts] that is my beef.
please reword next time so it does not imply sabbaths keepers all in general.
S
sparkman
Guest
My guess is the moderators won't look too favorably on your references to Protestantism being a counterfeit Christianity.
R
robinriley
Guest
(Robin)
Although you've put me on ignore, I was wondreing if you might still take another look at my continuing efforts to best read these two verses from Colossians ... I've taken all of your critique comments into account, other than our difference of opinion over the conjunction, so please Mr Valiant look this over and get back with me ... thank you
"Therefore, any [one] to you, be him no[t] judging
in a consuming, or in a drinking, or in a part of a festival or new-moon, or of sabbaths,
(which of the [things] intending, a shadow it be, yet the body [it be] of Christ)." (~Robin)
That's how I'm currently reading this, but I've yet to see anyone acknowledge that the word, "χριστοῦ," here, is genitive ... "of Christ" ...that is, it seems that everyone just skips over the linguistic fact tht the word, here, is GSM ...OF Christ,and they then proceed to read the Relitive Eliipsis "[it be]" as if "σῶμα = χριστοῦ" ... (body is Christ)And yes, I do understand the reason ... more than one doctrinal reason ... behind this mental blind spot,this need to read into the verse something that's not really there. And granted, what they are doing doeshave an element of truth to it, but then, as you well know, half-truths are the easiest to sell, and the hardest to dispell. That is, these two verses are, indeed, talking about the very rituals, and shadowthereof, that are mentioned in Hebrews chapter 10 ... that has never been something in dispute, but this isalways the very place or point that any factual reading of the verse 2:17 goes south. So, Mr. Valiant, I'd liketo, indeed, "manipulate" the words of these verses, in order for explainational purposes ... and yes, this isnot the proper way to treat scripture, but I'm just attempting an experiment here, trying to work with those thatrightly know these verses are talking about rituals, but un-logically insist that the verse equates Christ with body.That is, Mr. Valiant, I'm going to purposfully "manipulate" the words, but for the purpose of just avoiding the unnecessary argument about the aformentioned rituals equating to the shadow, and to bring out the fact thatthe verse does not, then, go on to say that the body equates to Christ (Christ = the body) ...
Rituals are of things intending;
that is, a shadow of Christ,
but the body is, also, of Christ;
therefore,
allow no oneto be judging you in these rituals. (~paraphrased)
***
2:16* Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει, ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νουμηνίας ἢ σαββάτων·
Therefore, any [one] to you, be him no[t] judging in a consuming, or in a drinking, or in a part of a festival or new-moon, or of sabbaths,
no[t] {3361 PRT-N} therefore {3767 CONJ} any [one] {5100 X-NSM} to you {1473 P-2AP} be him judging {2919 V-PAM-3S} in {1722 PREP} unto a consuming {1035 N-DSF} or {2228 PRT} in {1722 PREP} unto a drinking {4213 N-DSF} or {2228 PRT} in {1722 PREP} unto a part {3313 N-DSN} of a festival {1859 N-GSF} or {2228 PRT} of a new-moon {3561 N-GSF} or {2228 PRT} of sabbaths/ of weeks {4521 N-GPN}
2:17* ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα χριστοῦ.
(which of the [things] intending, a shadow it be, yet the body [it be] of Christ).
which [things] {3739 R-NPN} it be {1510 V-PAI-3S} a shadow {4639 N-NSF} of the [things] {3588 T-GPN} of intending {3195 V-PAP-GPN} the [thing] {3588 T-NSN} yet {1161 CONJ} a body {4983 N-NSN} of Anointed/ of Christ {5547 N-GSM}
If they or you have a problem with bible verses I posted,
and want to kick me out of cc, then that be our fathers will so be it.
so go run and tell on me again if you want, not my call.
R
robinriley
Guest
Rituals are of things intending;
that is, a shadow of Christ,
but the body is, also, of Christ;
therefore,
allow no oneto be judging you,
the body of Christ,
in these rituals. (~paraphrased)
that is, a shadow of Christ,
but the body is, also, of Christ;
therefore,
allow no oneto be judging you,
the body of Christ,
in these rituals. (~paraphrased)
R
robinriley
Guest
(Robin)
I, personally, no longer honor any holy days ... yearly or weekly ... and I allow no one to judge me by this;
so, if you or others do keep certain days (weekly or yearly ones) holy (set apart and sanctified) that's really
none of my business, and I certainly would not be judging you over something like that ...
So, with that said, resolved, take yet another look at Colossians 2:16-17 ... and my "manipulative" paraphrase,
and tell me if this, the way I've rephrased it, isn't something that Paul is really intending, because it sounds like
this is, also, what you are attempting to get across ... whlle all along, the conversations just keep getting more
and more ... judgmental ...
Judgemental, one way or the other ... and yet this is the very thing ... I believe the VERY POINT of what Paul
was really attempting to get across to people ...Therefore, any [one] ...TO YOU ... be him no[t] judging
Rituals are of things intending;
that is, a shadow of Christ,
but the body is, also, of Christ;
therefore,
allow no oneto be judging you,
the body of Christ,
in these rituals. (~paraphrased)
S
sparkman
Guest
This is an interesting rendering..I would like to discuss this with you further sometime.
R
robinriley
Guest
(Robin)
...Promises, promises ...
That is, I've been talking about this since June 19th, all I've been talking about,
attempting to engage anyone, anyone, in a real honest to goodness discussion ...
not a discussion about what people want to make the verses say, but simply
about what they actually say, factually say ...but noooooo, everyone wants to talk
doctrine, and be judgemental about this and that. When in fact the MAIN point
of Paul's, here, has little to do, specifically about this or that ritual, but really
about the fact that we are Christ's ... of Christ ... and therefore, being Christ's,
that no one ... no one ...has any right .... any right ...to be judgemental of us,
especially over a minor matter as rituals, which in all reality are only a shadow.
S
sparkman
Guest
S
sparkman
Guest
Isn't it ironic that you are so offended by being called a cult, yet you and others like you refer to the Protestant faith as "counterfeit Christianity"?
By the way, I distinguish between Sabbathkeepers and Sabbathkeeping cults. Armstrongism is a Sabbathkeeping cult. There are many Sabbathkeepers who are not part of cults.
By the way, I distinguish between Sabbathkeepers and Sabbathkeeping cults. Armstrongism is a Sabbathkeeping cult. There are many Sabbathkeepers who are not part of cults.
S
sparkman
Guest
An additional point I'd like to make with regards to Colossians 2:16-17..this point involves considering three different Scriptures (not of necessity but for support):
Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Hebrews 9:10-12 [SUP]10 [/SUP]but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,[SUP][a][/SUP] then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) [SUP]12 [/SUP]he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Galatians 3:16-25 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Here is the reasoning:
1. Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together.
2. Food and drink offerings were imposed until the time of Reformation..which was when Christ came and died for our sins
per Hebrews 9:10-12.
3. Galatians 3:16-25 provides further support that the Old Covenant was only in effect until Christ came and died for our
sins. It is no longer in effect.
4. Since Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together, they are under the
same level of applicability to the New Covenant believer.
5. Additionally, Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same language of "shadows of things to come" in reference to animal sacrifices that
is applied to the Sabbath and Holy Days, placing them in this same category of inapplicable things.
As indicated on other posts, an additional point is that Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same reference of "shadow of things to come" in reference to the animal sacrifices as Colossians 2:16-17 uses in regards to the Sabbath, Holy Days, food and drink offerings.
Hebrews 10:1-2 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?
The reasoning that the Sabbath and Holy Days do not apply to New Covenant Christians is inescapable. If someone wants to observe them, fine, but don't accuse other non-observant individuals of being false Christians or being in sin.
Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Hebrews 9:10-12 [SUP]10 [/SUP]but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,[SUP][a][/SUP] then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) [SUP]12 [/SUP]he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Galatians 3:16-25 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Here is the reasoning:
1. Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together.
2. Food and drink offerings were imposed until the time of Reformation..which was when Christ came and died for our sins
per Hebrews 9:10-12.
3. Galatians 3:16-25 provides further support that the Old Covenant was only in effect until Christ came and died for our
sins. It is no longer in effect.
4. Since Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together, they are under the
same level of applicability to the New Covenant believer.
5. Additionally, Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same language of "shadows of things to come" in reference to animal sacrifices that
is applied to the Sabbath and Holy Days, placing them in this same category of inapplicable things.
As indicated on other posts, an additional point is that Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same reference of "shadow of things to come" in reference to the animal sacrifices as Colossians 2:16-17 uses in regards to the Sabbath, Holy Days, food and drink offerings.
Hebrews 10:1-2 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?
The reasoning that the Sabbath and Holy Days do not apply to New Covenant Christians is inescapable. If someone wants to observe them, fine, but don't accuse other non-observant individuals of being false Christians or being in sin.
Come to Me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I
will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28)
What did He mean? The burden of the law was upon the people,
indeed, it was a heavy burden for them. The Pharisees gave more than two
thousand interpretations to the law of Moses, and said: “The law of Moses
does not mean that you have only to keep ten commandments; it means
that you have to keep two thousand.” There was not a point in all their
human life where this law was not applied and made their lives difficult.
And all this was gathered up into the Sabbath: “You must not make your
bed on the Sabbath! You must not carry your bed on the Sabbath! You
must not poke your fire on the Sabbath! You must do nothing on the
Sabbath – you may not even walk more than three miles.” Two thousand
regulations for their lives! The one thing that they were meeting every day,
and especially on the Sabbath, was “You may not.”
“Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give
you rest” (Matthew 11:28). What has happened? Jesus has appropriated the
Sabbath to Himself. It is no longer a day of the week – it is a Divine Person.
(If the Seventh Day Adventists saw that, the whole of their system would
go in five minutes!) No, Jesus is God‟s Sabbath. He is the end of God‟s
works, and in Him God has entered into His rest. This is the “rest which
remaineth for the children of God” – not a day of the week or on the
calendar, but a Divine Person, the Son of God. In Him we come to rest, and
that which was our bondage is now our servant. In Him, that against which
we were always struggling is now our victory. Oh yes, Jesus is the Sabbath,
and if we live in Him we shall not spoil the Sabbath. Every day should be a
day of rest to our souls. Oh, this is a mighty thing that the Lord Jesus has
done!
From: Discipleship In The School Of Christ - Chapter 5, by T. Austin Sparks
Austin-Sparks.Net - Chapter 5 - Divine Life and Deliverance from Bondage to Sin and Death
will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28)
What did He mean? The burden of the law was upon the people,
indeed, it was a heavy burden for them. The Pharisees gave more than two
thousand interpretations to the law of Moses, and said: “The law of Moses
does not mean that you have only to keep ten commandments; it means
that you have to keep two thousand.” There was not a point in all their
human life where this law was not applied and made their lives difficult.
And all this was gathered up into the Sabbath: “You must not make your
bed on the Sabbath! You must not carry your bed on the Sabbath! You
must not poke your fire on the Sabbath! You must do nothing on the
Sabbath – you may not even walk more than three miles.” Two thousand
regulations for their lives! The one thing that they were meeting every day,
and especially on the Sabbath, was “You may not.”
“Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give
you rest” (Matthew 11:28). What has happened? Jesus has appropriated the
Sabbath to Himself. It is no longer a day of the week – it is a Divine Person.
(If the Seventh Day Adventists saw that, the whole of their system would
go in five minutes!) No, Jesus is God‟s Sabbath. He is the end of God‟s
works, and in Him God has entered into His rest. This is the “rest which
remaineth for the children of God” – not a day of the week or on the
calendar, but a Divine Person, the Son of God. In Him we come to rest, and
that which was our bondage is now our servant. In Him, that against which
we were always struggling is now our victory. Oh yes, Jesus is the Sabbath,
and if we live in Him we shall not spoil the Sabbath. Every day should be a
day of rest to our souls. Oh, this is a mighty thing that the Lord Jesus has
done!
From: Discipleship In The School Of Christ - Chapter 5, by T. Austin Sparks
Austin-Sparks.Net - Chapter 5 - Divine Life and Deliverance from Bondage to Sin and Death
T
Thomas1961
Guest
What did Jesus say?
Jesus answered, “Have you never read what David did that time when he and his men were hungry? [SUP]4 [/SUP]He went into the house of God, and he and his men ate the bread offered to God, even though it was against the Law for them to eat it—only the priests were allowed to eat that bread. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Or have you not read in the Law of Moses that every Sabbath the priests in the Temple actually break the Sabbath law, yet they are not guilty?" - Matthew 12:3-5
Jesus answered, “Have you never read what David did that time when he and his men were hungry? [SUP]4 [/SUP]He went into the house of God, and he and his men ate the bread offered to God, even though it was against the Law for them to eat it—only the priests were allowed to eat that bread. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Or have you not read in the Law of Moses that every Sabbath the priests in the Temple actually break the Sabbath law, yet they are not guilty?" - Matthew 12:3-5
T
Thomas1961
Guest
Paul tells us that God cancelled "the written code with it's regulations.
Col 2:13-17 (NIV) When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
These "shadow laws" are NOT to be enforced on Christians as they were shadows of things that were to come and the reality found their fulfillment in Christ. Why live in the shadows of the old covenant and deny the fulfillment of Christ that is found in the new covenant?
Do not let anyone judge you on these
Unclean Meat
Col 2:13-17 (NIV) When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
These "shadow laws" are NOT to be enforced on Christians as they were shadows of things that were to come and the reality found their fulfillment in Christ. Why live in the shadows of the old covenant and deny the fulfillment of Christ that is found in the new covenant?
Do not let anyone judge you on these
- JEWISH DIETARY LAWS
- ANNUAL FEAST DAYS
- MONTHLY FEAST DAYS
- WEEKLY SABBATHS
Unclean Meat