Is there a break in Daniel's 70 weeks? (Daniel 9:26)

[GaryA]

Re: PRETERISM CANNOT HANDLE THE GENERATION SIGNS

"This generation shall not pass" refers to the generation that sees the signs He announced.

Please see post #98.

The signs are signs of Christ's return & of the consummation of the Age, not of the Temple destruction in that context.

The "signs" are spread out over a time span that started before 70 A.D. and continues until some point in our future.

And He also proclaimed that
NO SIGN (but of Jonah) would be given to "this generation," in reference to those standing there.

You are taking this a bit out of context. Jesus was giving an answer to some men who were asking Him for a sign pertaining to the fact that He was the Christ. It was not about "signs of His coming" or "the end of the world"...

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus is talking about events that would come to pass. Yes, this included some "signs"; however, the overall discourse was not about "signs" -- it was about 'events'. As I said before, Jesus gave more information than they asked for.

They cannot be the same generation!

Sure they can -- IF you understand what is actually being said...

 

[GaryA]

None of it pertains to the Church { of course it does }, which is never mentioned { of course it is - as a matter of context - not by any name given } -- nor the Rapture.

You don't think this verse is referring to the rapture? :

Matthew 24:

[SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[GaryA]

Gary, if you will closely compare Luke with the other 2 gospels for the Olivet Discourse, you will see that Luke has a section that the other 2 gospels do not have.

If you will look closely at the 'Olivet Discourse' web page linked to in my signature, you may yet discover a few interesting things of your own... ( Pay close attention to the 'Comments' column. )

Consider that while the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple does have parallel to the outbreak of persecution & martyrdom which follows the setting up of an idol in the Temple (abomination) parallel to the 5th Seal of Rev 6 & 2 Thes 2; the destruction of Jeru with the armies there, is quite distinct from the outbreak of persecution that necessitates flight in the middle of Daniels' 70th week (Seal 5).

The association you have made here between the 'flight' and Daniel's 70th week and Seal 5 is not substantive. There is little connection between any two of the three, except that the 'flight' may be associated with the [ 70 A.D. time period ] martyrdom of some of the souls under the alter.

 

[GaryA]

Olivet Disc Luke21

Luke addresses the Jewish War vs Rome & the Destruction of the Jerusalem where Mat & Mk are silent on this. Here is Luke's special passage:

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. 21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. 22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars;

Note how with very broad brush the period for AD 70 - the signs of the 2nd Coming are painted.

Captive into all the nations = at AD 70 & its aftermath.

Jeru trodden down of the Gentiles:
covers the entire rest of the Church Age, though the Church is not mentioned. This down-trodding continues to this very day & has not yet ended. The Times of the Gentile Kingdoms ends with the stone in Dan 2 whacking the feet of the 4-metal image & the Kingdom of God established on earth.

flee unto the mountains is a bit parallel to the flight of Israel at the 5th Seal following the abomination in the Temple (2 Th 2). See also Revelation 12. But the flight of those who knew this prophecy at the Roman attack on Jerusalem (c. 66-70 AC), is different from the flight at the setup of the abomination yet to come in the midst of Dan's 70th week.

signs in sun and moon and stars is way in the future to AD 70. These happen near the end of the Times of the Gentiles and are yet to come. The generation standing there did not see these signs & could not because the Lord told them they would not be getting any sign.


At any rate, you may compare Luke to confirm for yourself how this material is unique to Luke (not in Mat or Mark).

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here - but not all.

I believe that your understanding of what the 5th seal represents is a little skewed.

The details of the three different accounts of the Olivet Discourse vary from account to account; however, they are all three STILL accounts of the SAME discourse.

 

[GaryA]

What indicates a worldwide scope?

context

...

 

[birdie]

The flood mentioned in Daniel 9:26 (And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined) points us to the same symbolism as Noah's flood, the tribulation period. Noah's flood Jesus told us is a picture of the end times. So does all of the other terminology in Daniel 9 point us to that time. Remember how Matthew 24 talks about the abomination that causes desolation. That's the desolation mentioned here. That desolation is the lack of Christ in the congregations as the tribulation period ensues. The tribulation period that comes towards the end of the church age. The prince that shall come is Satan who is allowed to destroy the congregations of the church age spiritually, so that salvation is lacking there. When Daniel talks about the sacrifice being done away with, it is parable language for there not being any more salvation (Christ's sacrifice) left in the congregations at the time. Remember how Abraham pleaded with the Lord to not destroy Sodom if there were still a few saved (righteous) persons left therein. But in the end God got Lot and his family out of there, and spiritual destruction was the result (no more salvation there).

 

[birdie]

Also, "this generation" means 'this wicked generation' (typified by the Pharisees of Jesus time who were religious but rejected Christ). This wicked generation or type of religious person rejecting Christ goes right on through the church age until all the tribulation period events are fulfilled, according to Matthew 24:34. It is not a generation in the sense of being a person's lifespan is a generation, but rather a generation, meaning a type of person or group of persons who are spiritually similar as described above - religious but rejecting the true believers and Christ.

 

[Timeline]

Matthew 16:28
“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Matthew 24:30
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Mark 13:26
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Hebrews 8:1
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

Hebrews 10:12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Colossians 3:1
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

 

[GaryA]

They ask 3 things:

1) "when will these things be?"

2) "And what will be the sign of Your coming,"

3) "and of the end of the age?"

In 'time and event' terms, your #2 and #3 actually go together.

This is the post I actually meant to quote...

Read the following 3 accounts of the same discourse very carefully.

Matthew 24:

[SUP]3[/SUP] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:

[SUP]3[/SUP] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, [SUP]4[/SUP] Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:

[SUP]7[/SUP] And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Grammatically speaking, there are actually only two questions present in the Matthew account. The phrases 'what shall be the sign of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' do not indicate two separate questions; rather, the phrase 'of the end of the world' is an "extension" of / to the phrase 'of thy coming' - giving definition to the sentence in the way of:

"What shall be the sign of thy coming - which is at the time of the end of the world."

The same 'sign' marks both 'of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' -- both phrases are references of / to the same 'event'.

In all three accounts - the 'sign' is singular ( i.e. - one sign, not multiple signs ) - and points to the "these things" as a collective whole.

In all three accounts - the same two [essential] questions are asked:

1. "When shall these things be?"
2. "What 'sign' (singular) will there be to indicate that the 'these things' are about to happen?"

Only, the Matthew account adds more definition into the 'these things' than the other two accounts.

This is what they are asking. Jesus actually gave them more information than what they were asking for.

 

[GaryA]

The association you have made here between the 'flight' and Daniel's 70th week and Seal 5 is not substantive. There is little connection between any two of the three, except that the 'flight' may be associated with the [ 70 A.D. time period ] martyrdom of some of the souls under the alter.

I believe that [ at least the vast majority of ] the souls under the alter are the 'dark ages' martyred saints.

 

[GaryA]

Ken, and many others deny the 70th week prophecy about Messiah being cut off in the midst of the 70th week. They say it is yet to be fulfilled somewhere in the future. This is heresy because it is rejecting the prophecy of Messiah being crucified in that week, as they also reject the covenant confirmed by the Lord in the last week of Daniels 70 week prophecy.

I generally agree with what is presented in this image; however, the 'data' is not all entirely correct. Perhaps I may create a graphic illustration of my perspective on this issue.

The following graphic - taken from the first quoted post above and modified - illustrates my perspective on the 490 year span of the '70 weeks of Daniel':

 

[GaryA]

The following graphic - taken from the first quoted post above and modified - illustrates my perspective on the 490 year span of the '70 weeks of Daniel':

"In other words..."

457 B.C.	The decree went forth to rebuild the city.
445 B.C.	The wall of the city is built in 52 days.
405 B.C.	The rebuilding of the city ends 52 years after the decree went forth.
3 B.C.	Christ is born in Bethlehem.
	( Remember that there is no year 0. )
30 A.D.	Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends.
	( NOT 434 years after the end of the 7th week - look carefully at Daniel 9:25-26 )
34 A.D.	Daniel's 70 weeks end 70 x 7 = 490 years after the decree went forth. ( Continued next row. )
34 A.D.	'Times of the Jews' ends; 'Times of the Gentiles' begins

.
.
.

 

[flob]

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]30 A.D.[/TD]
[TD]Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]( NOT 434 years after the end of the 7th week - look carefully at Daniel 9:25-26 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

AD 30 Christ is crucified (7+62) x 7 = 483 years after the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.
'After the 62 weeks, Messiah will be cut off.'

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]34 A.D.[/TD]
[TD]Daniel's 70 weeks end 70 x 7 = 490 years after the decree went forth.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

AD ? Daniel's 70 weeks end (69 x 7) + z + 7 years after the decree went forth.

'cut off...And the people of the prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end of it...And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week.'

My 'z' representing the undefined time from the conjunction 'And' up until the clearly defined beginning of the last seven.
Which itself will not only be the last 7 years of 'Jewish history,' but also of 'world history.' This is clear because the Roman
prince's breaking of his own 7-year covenant halfway through marks the beginning of The Tribulation which in Revelation and Daniel and Matthew and Thessalonians and Zechariah constitutes the last 3 1/2 years of this age

 

[valiant]

Whether you are a preterist that believes Daniel's 70th 'seven' (week of 7 years) was fulfilled in 70 AD or a futurist that believes Daniel's 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, you must place a break in Daniel 9:26, between the end of the 69th week in 33 AD (when Jesus Christ was cut off) and the beginning of the 70th.

If you do not accept a break, where do you place the beginning and end of Daniel's 70 weeks?

It is quite clear that Daniel himself did not consider there to be a break between the sixty ninth seven and the seventieth seven. He saw the seventy sevens as patterned on the seventy years of Jeremiah. No one would have dreamed of putting a break in the seventy year of Daniel.

If we put a break it indicates that our interpretation is wrong.

The truth is that there is not a single piece of reliable evidence that makes 'a seven' indicate seven years. Such an idea is based on false utilisation of other Scriptures. It is called 'the numbers game'.

If we take the prophecy at face value, and allow it to interpret itself, without trying to fit it into our schemes, it is fairly straightforward.

The 'going forth of the word' to rebuild Jerusalem is the same 'going forth of the word' in verse 23. In other words it refers to the date when Daniel received the prophecy. But that won't do because it cancels out seven meaning years. So we all then pick out a date that suits our theory based on man made decrees.

'Sevens' are periods in which God works out His purposes. How long they are is not indicated. Thus at the end of 69 'sevens' the 'Anointed One' is cut off. Then follows the destruction of city and sanctuary. This only requires a break if we are falsely calling 'sevens' seven years. Using normal methods of interpretation it takes place in the midst of the seventieth seven when sacrifices and offerings cease. There is no justification, apart from theories, for denying it. Thus that 'half a seven' is forty year. The final half of the seven then allows for the rest of time to the end of time when the goals are fulfilled. The covenant made is made between God and His people in consequence of the death of the Messiah. It is the new covenant. In Daniel 'covenant' always means God's covenant, and the fact that it is 'confirmed' not initially made confirms this. Other agreements, alliances and treaties are described in those words.

Of course the problem is that I am taking it LITERALLY, something which 'the literalists' cannot do.

 

[GaryA]

AD 30 Christ is crucified (7+62) x 7 = 483 years after the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.
'After the 62 weeks, Messiah will be cut off.'









AD ? Daniel's 70 weeks end (69 x 7) + z + 7 years after the decree went forth.

'cut off...And the people of the prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end of it...And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week.'

My 'z' representing the undefined time from the conjunction 'And' up until the clearly defined beginning of the last seven.
Which itself will not only be the last 7 years of 'Jewish history,' but also of 'world history.' This is clear because the Roman
prince's breaking of his own 7-year covenant halfway through marks the beginning of The Tribulation which in Revelation and Daniel and Matthew and Thessalonians and Zechariah constitutes the last 3 1/2 years of this age

No.
.....
.....

 

[flob]

yes. It's laughable to think it says the 70th 7th ever began, much less is finished.

 

[GaryA]

Thus at the end of 69 'sevens' the 'Anointed One' is cut off.

No - that is not what it says. Please read verse 25 again. At the end of 69 'sevens' is when He "shows up"...

( "arrives on the scene" / "enters the picture" / etc. )

( Please understand the prophetic context of the passage. )

 

[GaryA]

Daniel 9:

[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


A correct interpretation of this passage requires a sufficient understanding of the following...

According to the 'grammar of the language':

~ The phrase "seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" cannot be "disassembled" in such a way that the end of the first seven weeks becomes a reference point to which 62 weeks can be added ( in verse 26 ). It is only properly interpreted collectively ( in week-counting terms ) as 69 weeks.

~ This phrase is very significant. In week-counting terms, it refers to the end of the rebuilding of Jerusalem. It is from this point that the 62 weeks are added. ( The words "And after" in verse 26 refer back to this phrase. )

~ This part of the verse is an 'aside'; it is a "look-ahead" reference to events ( ~70 A.D. ) that do not even take place within the 70 weeks, and has absolutely no connection what-so-ever with the "counting" of weeks or the events that are associated with those weeks.

~ There is no reference to the word 'prince' ( in verse 26 ) anywhere in the passage. All three of the words 'he' in verse 27 refer back to the word 'Messiah' in verse 26.

~ This is also a "look-ahead" reference, and has no direct connection with the 70 weeks.


"If you do not understand all of these things very clearly --- 'keep studying' until you do..."

 

[flob]

This part of the verse is an 'aside'; it is a "look-ahead" reference to events ( ~70 A.D. ) that do not even take place within the 70 weeks, and has absolutely no connection what-so-ever with the "counting" of weeks or the events that are associated with those weeks.

'Look ahead...events (70 A.D.) that do not...take place within the 70...no connection what-so-ever with the...counting...of weeks or the events that are...with those week'----------YES. That IS absolutely the point. The nail on the head: That is a break in the 70 weeks. Specifically, and Only (and grammatically, numerically, countingly, textually, plainly, prophetically)
a break between the end of the 69th seven and the 70th seven. Which, as of now, stands at about 1,985 years (AD 30 to present).

There is no reference to the word 'prince' ( in verse 26 ) anywhere in the passage. All three of the words 'he' in verse 27 refer back to the word 'Messiah' in verse 26.

This plainly contradicts not only English (the translation), but the manner All language in literature and in speaking works.
I means it's so........silly, especially baldly stated as it is, with no proffer of a reason even attempted...

The Messiah is mentioned first in 9:26. His crucifixion. Marking the end of the 62 sevens (434 years)---which also happens to be the end of the (7+62=69) sevens (483 years), since the 7 sevens came BEFORE the 62 sevens.
After the word 'Messiah' appears, who 'will have nothing' (= nothing of worldly success, having been executed as a criminal by the Romans for the Jews, His own people), the 'prince who will come [and] destroy [Jerusalem] and the [temple]' is mentioned. Plainly not Messiah. Not Jesus. But, in fact, rather (as the earlier poster Correctly identifies) came and destroyed
Jerusalem and its temple in AD 70. Titus the Roman general. A relief of his victory and the spoils like the lampstand from Jerusalem's temple in AD 70, still stands in Rome. The Lord Jesus prophesied of Titus' war in Matthew 24:2, among other places. Since they rejected their true Messiah, in favor of their own continuing religious and political clout (as pathetic as it was), God gave them up to following all kinds of self-declared 'Christs' and zealots and revolutionaries, such as Bar-Kochba, I believe, is one. Leading to Rome being fed up and destroying the nation 40 years after it 'destroyed' Jesus. (Actually, this was in Jesus' plan: to accomplish redemption both for them, and Romans, and for the entire planet of people; and to fall into the earth as a grain of wheat and die... It is so fitting that Daniel be a rare ---only?---OT book to explicitly teach the term 'resurrection' (in chapter 12)).

But back to the grammar-point: the antecedent (the precedent, the precursor) of the pronoun 'he' in Daniel 9:27 is the last-mentioned person-noun. The 'prince of the people who will come.' Titus, the Roman prince of the Roman empire, in AD 70.
Not Jesus Christ. This is confirmed (as if such 'needed' confirmation), by the description of what the 'he' does in Daniel 9:27 which Jesus did not do directly and physically; and even more: Jesus Christ is the OPPOSITE of the desolator with the desolator's abomination of desolation. (Of which the Lord also prophesied....in relation to Daniel 9:27...which had of course not yet transpired at Jesus Christ's time----the abomination of desolation spoken of through Daniel the prophet, in Matthew 24:15.)

 

[valiant]

No - that is not what it says. Please read verse 25 again. At the end of 69 'sevens' is when He "shows up"...

( "arrives on the scene" / "enters the picture" / etc. )

( Please understand the prophetic context of the passage. )

seems clear to me. 'after the sixty two seven the anointed one will be cut off'