Pre-tribulation raptiure or post-tribulation rapture?

[Elin]

But we do not 'go out to meet the LORD'. We are 'caught up to meet Him in the air; so that we shall ever be with Him. It is a totally different concept.

Can there be any going out to meet him in the clouds/air without being caught up?

 

[valiant]

Can there be any going out to meet him in the clouds/air without being caught up?

going out to meet Him is voluntary. Being caught up is not. It is a different scenario.

but don't worry. if Christians want to make it fit their speculations they won't worry too much about a verb

 

[Elin]

I haven't read all of the posts, but if it hasn't been mentioned yet there is an interesting site where
the author has been able to match up all of the prophecies so far, in order in Revelation and Daniel 11. If interested the site is daniel11truth.com. He's
a pre trib. guy. Looks like he may be on to something.

However, his uncertain interpretation of those prophetic riddles would not be in agreement with the certain NT teaching which locates the rapture at the end of time, presented here.

 

[Elin]

Saints, as we well know this discussion has no resolve because we lack solid proof on both views.

The certain teaching of the NT, as distinct from uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
clearly locates the rapture at the end of time.

 

[Elin]

going out to meet Him is voluntary. Being caught up is not. It is a different scenario.

but don't worry. if Christians want to make it fit their speculations they won't worry too much about a verb

A distinction without a difference. . .are you splitting hairs?

Who can "voluntarily" rise in the air?

Do you think any will rise who do not do so voluntarily?

 

[valiant]

A distinction without a difference. . .are you splitting hairs?

Who can "voluntarily" rise in the air?

Do you think any will rise who do not do so voluntarily?

I don't think the choice will be given to anyone. it will happen in accordance with His will. The Rapture is not people voluntarily going to meet the Lord so as to escort Him back. It is His sovereign activity in taking His people to be with Himslf.

you are missing the point. people were trying to use the custom of going out to meet a ruler in order to bring him back to the city in order to suggest the false teaching that after the Rapture Jesus would come to earth. But as I have stated the situation is wholly different. No one will return to earth after the Rapture. They will go to be with Him for ever.

but don't worry. if Christians want to make it fit their speculations they won't worry too much about a verb. When have prophetic students worried about manipulating Scripture to suit their theories?

 

[Elin]

I don't think the choice will be given to anyone. it will happen in accordance with His will. The Rapture is not people voluntarily going to meet the Lord so as to escort Him back. It is His sovereign activity in taking His people to be with Himslf.

So all who go will definitely be going voluntarily.

you are missing the point. people were trying to use the custom of going out to meet a ruler in order to bring him back to the city in order to suggest the false teaching that after the Rapture Jesus would come to earth. But as I have stated the situation is wholly different. No one will return to earth after the Rapture. They will go to be with Him for ever.

The text doesn't state "go to" be with him forever.

The text states "will be with him forever," which does not preclude descending to earth with him, judging mankind with him, and the last things, including eternity with him.

 

[Elin]

I don't think the choice will be given to anyone. it will happen in accordance with His will. The Rapture is not people voluntarily going to meet the Lord so as to escort Him back. It is His sovereign activity in taking His people to be with Himself.

So all who go will definitely be going voluntarily.

you are missing the point. people were trying to use the custom of going out to meet a ruler in order to bring him back to the city in order to suggest the false teaching that after the Rapture Jesus would come to earth. But as I have stated the situation is wholly different. No one will return to earth after the Rapture. They will go to be with Him for ever.

The text doesn't state "go to" be with him forever.

The text states "will be with him forever," which does not preclude the rapture at the end of time, descending to earth with him, judging mankind with him, and the last things, including eternity with him.

 

[bondservant]

So their is no thousand yr. Reign? Please saints lets put this away.

 

[Elin]

So their is no thousand yr. Reign? Please saints lets put this away.

Many in the body of Christ interpret that prophetic riddle to mean something entirely different.

 

[bondservant]

I think it best to agree to disagree as I stated earlier it will not be a walk in the park and if you don't understand pre-trib ill explain on the way up lol. Peace saint

 

[flob]

If post tribulationists are Arian heretics then every notable Christian back from the days of Polycarp to Wesley are heretics as well. There are now four major positions on this subject. I resent being called a Heretic for not buying in to this 19th Century fantasy.

Lol, the 'Arian' reference was in regard to someone's words in defending their strange concept (if I correctly decipher their
incoherencies on this subject) that Christ and His saints will not rule on earth in eternity nor in the Millenium. (In fact he denies that there will be a Millenium of 1000 years as described in Revelation 20.) If my humble attempts to decipher are correct, his teaching denies that Christ will ever physically step on earth again:

And His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east. - Strictly speaking the 'His' refers to YHWH not to Jesus, nevertheless Jesus feet did stand on the Mount of Olives. The point is that He is ready to go out in triumph to the nations to bring them under His Kingly Rule...

His peculiar fallacious interpretation (of Zechariah 14, among other places) appears to be over-spiritualization. As if the fact that the Lord Jesus lives in and lives through His saints as His Body necessarily means that any talk of visible, physical rule over the world (Lk 19:17, 19; 1 Cor 6:3-4; Heb 2:5, 8; Rv 2:26-27; 5:10; 12:5; 17:14; 19:14; 20:1-9) dilutes the New Testament good news, and is sordid, unworthy of Christ; pure 'fantasy' or lust on the part of its interpreters, like me.

But what's more concerning and even dreadful on that poster's part was his comment here and above:
"to YHWH not to Jesus." As if Jesus Christ is not Jehovah (YHWH). Or as if They are separate (cf Jn 8:58; Acts 1:9-12; Zech 14:1-5; Micah 5:2; Heb 7:3; Jn 1:1-2; Col 2:9; Jn 14:20; 10:38; Rv 1:8; 22:12-16; etc).

In regard to Mr Tanach's comment "19th Century fantasy," that to me if of much lesser importance then the matter of Jesus' Person, divinity, absolute Deity, and faith into Him, the eternal Son of God. If there is no pretrib rapture of mature Christians, or Christians who walk with God (Gen 5:25; Heb 11:5-6), then from our perspective..............'big whoop.'
They too will then find themselves here with all the immature or soulish left-behind Christians (like me). Likewise, concerning the predominant Christianity pretrib rapture teaching: if the whole church finds itself left-behind, then they will quickly adapt. It's not like it's the 'end of the world.'

 

[dcontroversal]

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thess. 4:18

The body of Christ should not be looking for tribulation and anquish - we are not to be looking for the son of perdition - we are not to be looking for seasons and times . . . but we are to be Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

You do understand that one of the reasons Paul wrote the Thessalonian letters was because they had been taught that they had missed the resurrection/change and Paul writes to tell them that TRIBULATION is a sure sign that they had not missed it....Do not make the mistake of confusing tribulation with wrath.........

 

[Elin]

I think it best to agree to disagree as I stated earlier it will not be a walk in the park and
if you don't understand pre-trib ill explain on the way up lol. Peace saint

"Understanding" is not the issue. . .

 

[bondservant]

The issue is deaf ears on wisdom.

 

[Elin]

The issue is deaf ears on wisdom.

Agreed. . .

 

[KennethC]

Nowhere does the bible say we will not endure tribulation and persecution, as the bible only says we are not appointed to face God's wrath. Even Jesus said this about us;

John 15:20

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

 

[popeye]

Hmm! Neither ESV nor the Greek say "dispensation." KJV wrongly translates the word οἰκονομίαν or oikonomian as "dispensation" when in fact it means "household management, administration" from the root word οἰκος which means "house or household." No mention of times, or dispensations, unless the KJ English is far, far from modern English. Strange how Darby and Scofield could focus an entire wrong interpretation on the bible on such a bad translation - I guess they probably didn't know Greek!

"as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." Eph. 1:10 ESV

"εἰς οἰκονομίαν τοῦ πληρώματος τῶν καιρῶν, ἀνακεφαλαιώσασθαι τὰ πάντα ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ, τὰ ἐπὶ τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς· ἐν αὐτῷ," Eph. 1:10 Greek


Let me re-explain what 1 Thess 4:17 says in the Greek, lest you be fooled into thinking your imaginary rapture is correct.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 KJV

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 ESV

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

The word ἀπάντησιν or apantesin means "meeting". It is actually not a verb, as in both ESV and KJV, but a noun. However, it is a word used only three times in the New Testament. So Paul has a special use for it here, the one which a Greek speaking person would understand. The word apantesin had a tehnical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation, who went out from the city, and then would be ceremonially escorted the visitor BACK TO THE CITY.

In other words, we will not be returning with Jesus back to heaven, but rather he will be escorted by us, as he is the dignitary as he comes to the new earth. We are the ones going back not Jesus! He is the one arriving for his people!
And we will escort him back to earth.

The other two uses of this word are Matt. 25:6 and Acts 28:15.

"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’" Matt. 25:6

The virgins come out to meet the bridegroom and escort him BACK to the chamber.

"And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage.16 And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who guarded him." Acts 28:15

In the third Scripture, the people come out from Rome to meet with Paul and escort him BACK to Rome. The people always return to the place from which they have come, the dignitary coming with them.

So simple! I would suggest you to get a copy of The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament by Cleon L Rogers Jr, and Cleon L. Rogers III, both scholars of Greek and exegetical studies to further your study, and for you to see for yourself how FALSE this rapture nonsense is!

In other words, we will not be returning with Jesus back to heaven, but rather he will be escorted by us, as he is the dignitary as he comes to the new earth. We are the ones going back not Jesus! He is the one arriving for his people!
And we will escort him back to earth.

The other two uses of this word are Matt. 25:6 and Acts 28:15.

"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’" Matt. 25:6

The virgins come out to meet the bridegroom and escort him BACK to the chamber.

What ever your purpose is for flipping this around you need to stop.

THE GROOM CAME FROM THE CHAMBER. Not the other way around. Your scenario is a grand canyon leap with zero basis.

You do not know what you are talking about.

BTW ,the ACT of dispensing and administering are one in the same. You have not made a case for anything.

 

[konroh]

Actually the idea that apantesis is a technical term when Paul used it has been debunked. This term does not guarantee a post-trib Rapture. It simply means "meeting." It doesn't have the technical term of meeting incoming dignitaries. It did have that meaning centuries after Paul uses the term, but not in koine Greek.
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVu4K7KVVDEMAK4gnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTE0djZoZWprBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDRkZYVUkyOF8xBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1436966026/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.raptureready.com%2ffeatured%2fice%2fSky.doc/RK=0/RS=RrKPzjxyBEokUKCW34wDC6d4xhk-

 

[valiant]

So all who go will definitely be going voluntarily.

Only in the sense that they 'volunteered' when they first came to Christ. At the Rapture no one will be asked. It will all happen too quickly.

The text doesn't state "go to" be with him forever.

LOL if they will be with Him for ever, and they go, they clearly go to be with Him for ever.

The text states "will be with him forever," which does not preclude the rapture at the end of time, descending to earth with him, judging mankind with him, and the last things, including eternity with him.

the rapture will be at the end of time. at the same time this earth will be destroyed by fire, and the last judgment will take place. There is in the New Testament nowhere any suggestion that Jesus descends to earth.