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Dec 12, 2013
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#41
I agree and will add.....it goes right along with the picture of Moses, Aaron and Joshua.......

Moses and Aaron represented the law and the Levitical priesthood which sacrificed under the law....both committed one sin under the law and were not allowed to enter the Land of Promise, which represents the rest and freedom from sin and the bondage of sin...the Law took them all the way to the land, pointed to the land and allowed them to see the land, yet both died without mercy under the law....It took a savior (Joshua) to deliver the people into the place of rest, the freedom from sin and the bondage of sin (represented by Egypt)....

The law is a school master...it takes us by the hand to the point where the savior (Jesus) can TRANSLATE us into the KINGDOM of the dear Son, give us rest and freedom from our sin and the bondage of SIN............

The LAW came by MOSES...GRACE and TRUTH came by JESUS!

And for the record....Moses and Aaron were saved children of God...yet under the law there were very few examples of mercy!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#42
For everyone who erronously thinks that grace suddenly started when Jesus died, I would recommend you read the book,
The Gospel According to Moses by Dan Block.

He is a Old Testament and Hebrew scholar, and this book is a deep study of Deuteronomy and how God's grace did work during Old Testament times.

It's really odd to think that suddenly, one day, God suddenly became a God of grace, and changed his character. When in fact, God was always a God of grace! And God does not change!

Thinking that grace didn't appear until Jesus is really a kind of shallow thinking, and shows a total lack of understanding of the Old Testament and the nature of God.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#43
For everyone who erronously thinks that grace suddenly started when Jesus died, I would recommend you read the book,
The Gospel According to Moses by Dan Block.

He is a Old Testament and Hebrew scholar, and this book is a deep study of Deuteronomy and how God's grace did work during Old Testament times.

It's really odd to think that suddenly, one day, God suddenly became a God of grace, and changed his character. When in fact, God was always a God of grace! And God does not change!

Thinking that grace didn't appear until Jesus is really a kind of shallow thinking, and shows a total lack of understanding of the Old Testament and the nature of God.
I doubt anyone who has read the Bible wouldn't know this.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#45
For everyone who erronously thinks that grace suddenly started when Jesus died, I would recommend you read the book,
The Gospel According to Moses by Dan Block.

He is a Old Testament and Hebrew scholar, and this book is a deep study of Deuteronomy and how God's grace did work during Old Testament times.

It's really odd to think that suddenly, one day, God suddenly became a God of grace, and changed his character. When in fact, God was always a God of grace! And God does not change!

Thinking that grace didn't appear until Jesus is really a kind of shallow thinking, and shows a total lack of understanding of the Old Testament and the nature of God.
John 1:17...................<--------What does that say about the law and grace and who gave and brought what!
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#46

Hey Willie-T I'm so glad you got a steak dinner from your wife out of this!!! :D It's obvious you were once a teacher because you have more patience than most on these crazy forums. :D
And your inventive ways of bringing out the truth of Scripture has the marks of a good teacher too!

Below is a list of the differences of the old and new covenants. Look familiar?? Just like you said, the law is also described as the ministry of death...
2 Cor.3:7-8-9 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,8- how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9- For if the MINISTRY OF CONDEMNATION has glory, much more does the MINISTRY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS abound in glory.10- For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory on account of the glory that surpasses it.

The law is not permanent 3:14-15 Removed in Christ... 16. Whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY.


OLD-God demanded righteousness from man. NEW-God imparts righteousness to man through the finished work of Jesus. Rom.4:5-7 OLD-God will visit your sins to the 3rd 4th generations. Ex.20:5 NEW-God will by no means remember your sins. Heb. 8:12;10:17

OLD- The children of Israel were blessed only if they obeyed God's commandments perfectly inwardly and outwardly Duet.28:13-14 NEW-Beleivers don't have to depend on their self-efforts to receive God's blessings, because Jesus fullfilled every one of the requirements of the law on their behalf. Col. 2:14
OLD-
They were cursed of they did not obey God's commandments perfectly Duet.28:15-16,18,20
NEW- Believers can enjoy God's blessings and undeserved favor because Christ became a curse for them on the cross. Gal.3:13

OLD- Depending on self-effort produces behavior modification without heart transformation. NEW- Beholding the loveliness of Jesus and His finished work brings about inner transformation, which produces good works that are motivated by God's love. 2 Cor.3:18

OLD-The blood sacrifices of animals covered the sins of the children of Israel for only one year, and the process had to be repeated every year Heb.10:3
NEW- The blood of Jesus has removed the sins--past,present and future of believers completely and perfectly, once and for all. Heb.10:11-12

OLD-Obeying the law could not and did not give the children of Israel the power to stop sin in their lives. The law has no power to make anyone holy, just and good. NEW-Sin has no dominion over believers Rom.6:14 as the power of Jesus to overcome temptation kicks in when they are conscience that they are righteous in Christ apart from their works Rom. 4:6

OLD- The children of Israel were robbed of their confidence in the goodness of God because they were always looking at themselves to see how well or poorly they performed (i.e. self-conscience) NEW-Believers can have a tremendous sense of confidence and security in Christ because they are now looking to Jesus and not themselves (i.e. Christ-conscience)

OLD-The Children of Israel could not have an intimate relationship with God because their unrighteousness put distance between them and God. NEW-Beleivers can enjoy close,intimate relationship with God as their Father because they are made righteous by faith in Jesus.
2 Cor.5:17; Rom.5:7-9 Heb.10:10

OLD-The Children of Israel could not enter the holy of holies (where the presence of God was) Only the high priest could, ant that only once a year, on the Day of Atonement. Lev.16:2, 14 NEW-Not only can believers enter God's holy presence, they can also come boldly to His throne of grace in their time of need because Jesus perfect atonement. Heb.4:16

OLD-The children of Israel were under the ministry of death. 2 Cor. 3:17
NEW- Believers are under the ministry of Jesus' abundant life. 2 Cor.3:6; John 10:10

I always love "Compare & Contrast studies.... Thank you for that.

Actually, just about my whole family on my mother's side were teachers and professors. Nine of them, as I recall. And I "taught" criminals and ex-cons for 24 years, although it wasn't exactly a "normal' classroom setting. Some people wouldn't agree with you about me having patience because I put up with very little BS and lying, but yeah.... after a career like that, this playground name-calling really seems kind of boring in its sameness.

The steak dinner was kind of funny.

I typed that, and my wife happened to walk by and read it. She commented that that seemed like a very pleasant subject that would elicit a lot of logical dialogue. You can imagine my surprise, and what I answered. I listed the people who would go off the deep end over it, some, just because the post contained the word, "grace." (only missed one... but they may yet post)

So, anyway, she told me I didn't give people enough credit.... and that's when it escalated into a friendly bet on a dinner. She said you could have knocked her over with a feather when she saw the tenor of negativity in so many posts. I reminded her there is a whole world of people out there who are not like the people we hang out with.

Long story, short... I don't think I will be able to entice her into such a bet in the future.
 
I

Is

Guest
#47
John 1:17...................<--------What does that say about the law and grace and who gave and brought what!
Yet the OT does show that God was gracious. Gen.6:8; Ex.34:6
 
L

ladylynn

Guest
#49
For everyone who erronously thinks that grace suddenly started when Jesus died, I would recommend you read the book,
The Gospel According to Moses by Dan Block.

He is a Old Testament and Hebrew scholar, and this book is a deep study of Deuteronomy and how God's grace did work during Old Testament times.

It's really odd to think that suddenly, one day, God suddenly became a God of grace, and changed his character. When in fact, God was always a God of grace! And God does not change!

Thinking that grace didn't appear until Jesus is really a kind of shallow thinking, and shows a total lack of understanding of the Old Testament and the nature of God.
OLD-The children of Israel were under the ministry of death. 2 Cor. 3:17
NEW- Believers are under the ministry of Jesus' abundant life. 2 Cor.3:6; John 10:10

Aint nothing "erroneous" about living under the new covenant. No matter what Mr. Block says. It's not odd at all because Jesus coming was foretold all through the OT so it wasn't "suddenly" The OT saints LONGED for and things into which angels LONG to see what we have now under grace. Eph.

1 Peter 1:9-12 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls,
10.As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the GRACE THAT WOULD COME TO YOU made careful search and inquiry. 11. Seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to FOLLOW.
12. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven---things into which angels long to look. :D

Colossians 1:26-27 that is the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations; but has now been manifested to His saints.
to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. ;) Amen!!
 
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ladylynn

Guest
#50
I know "dispensations" is sort of a bad word to some, but it does help us to rightly divide the Word of Truth knowing that God stays the same but He dealt with people differently in times past. Different covenants, different promises. Same God.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#51
one of my favorite stories is when the philistines took the ark home with em, they tried to put it in their temple but all their idols kept falling over and getting smashed and everyone in town got sick. finally they sent it back on a cart with a cow.
"we dont want it, please take your ark back before we all die!!" lol
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#52
Yet the OT does show that God was gracious. Gen.6:8; Ex.34:6
You guys are pointing at the wrong person as no where have I said you cannot find grace and mercy in the O.T.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#53
John 1:17...................<--------What does that say about the law and grace and who gave and brought what!
You need to read the rest of the book of John. Jesus has always been!

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58
 
I

Is

Guest
#54
You guys are pointing at the wrong person as no where have I said you cannot find grace and mercy in the O.T.
When you replied to Angela with

"John 1:17...................<--------What does that say about the law and grace and who gave and brought what!"

when she said God was grace in the OT, that looked like you were making the point it was only Jesus that had grace.


verse 16 mentions "fullness" and that is what Jesus was, he was the fullness of Gods Grace and He was the "rock" in the OT..
 
E

EdisonTrent

Guest
#55
In our times we can't see or know where the original commandments are but still can honor them by being self aware. Try to keep them and by not bolstering to others about breaking them. As far as hanging them in ones home, hard to say it probably helps people to abide by them daily
 
B

bondservant

Guest
#56
Ok here is where I have a senior moment, l keep hearing that the law has changed in the new testament, or Jesus had changed it or destroyed it or it does not apply, so possessed tell me how and if the law changed and why.
 
Jun 21, 2015
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#57
Amen- having seen a heart that was true, He saved. He revealed. He blessed.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,735
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#59
You guys are pointing at the wrong person as no where have I said you cannot find grace and mercy in the O.T.
Hey DC, slip me a couple hundred and I'll help you ward off these sharp female theologians..HAHAHAHA
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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#60
Ok here is where I have a senior moment, l keep hearing that the law has changed in the new testament, or Jesus had changed it or destroyed it or it does not apply, so possessed tell me how and if the law changed and why.
The Law has not changed; it's been rendered obsolete by the Work of Christ and His Perfect and Permanent High Priesthood.

If one is in Christ, one is in the New Covenant, having died to the Law (Romans 7:4-6).

Anything that God still cares about from the Old Covenant is fulfilled by love - if one is loving others one is not murdering, stealing, committing adultery, etc.

Superior in every way to the Old Covenant, in the New isn't just about not doing harm to one's neighbor, but finding ways to love in works of service and finding ways to share the Gospel with others.

-JGIG