.......but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities

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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#2
I think it is a big stretch of the imagination to try and make this verse into a universal principle. It was a private epistle written to one person.

I personally cannot and do not drink. I was an alcoholic before I was saved, and it would dishonour God to go back and drink after he delivered me. Plus, my liver is in constant distress from medications I need to take, so I don't need alcohol to push it over the edge.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
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#3
Although resveratrol is a component of red wine, it is also contained in some fruit and nuts. So a bit of sensationalism on the part of the article!

In addition red wine was not used in the study, but the actual resveratrol, so there is no indication of how this compound works in the presence of alcohol.

Here is the link to the abstract of the actual study, done in my home town.

Improvements in skeletal muscle strength and cardiac function induced by resveratrol during exercise training contribute to enhanced exercise performance in rats - Dolinsky - 2012 - The Journal of Physiology - Wiley Online Library
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#4
we need to remember that the water at Ephesus was scarcely drinkable, and caused many stomach infections. Paul's advice must be viewed in that light. The only alternative was wine.
 
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phil112

Guest
#5
I think it is a big stretch of the imagination to try and make this verse into a universal principle. It was a private epistle written to one person..............................
Interesting that God let that get into His inspired gospel if you are correct.
Angela, alcohol put me in the hospital, then in a coma, then in a nursing home for a year. Just because I shouldn't drink it doesn't mean the bible is wrong. And you can say the same thing.
Some people can deal with it, have a drink and go to bed, and others like me, and apparently you too, like to keep drinking. It absolutely has some medicinal value or the bible, and science, wouldn't tell us it does. By the grace of God it has no attraction for me now. I can be around it at restaurants or other public venues and have no desire to have any.
Remember what Paul said "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that."

We're all different and we all have to deal with our own burden. But in so doing we shouldn't tell others they must do as us when the word of God clearly says differently. As long as a brother doesn't set a stumbling block, as long as he exercises some discretion, there is nothing wrong, sinful, or unbiblical about alcohol in moderation.
 
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phil112

Guest
#6
we need to remember that the water at Ephesus was scarcely drinkable, and caused many stomach infections. Paul's advice must be viewed in that light. The only alternative was wine.
And you know this because.......?
That's ridiculous. A silly assumption made by those that hate drink. There is no evidence to support such a statement.
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
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#7
When I worked in hospice, there was a patient 103 years old, and she drank a glass of wine everyday of her adult years. Her family brought a bottle to the private facility she was in, and with every meal she was served a little glass. It intrigued me. The only problem with her was Alzheimers. Pretty healthy in every other place.

I drink a glass with most meals. But then again I have never had a problem with wanting more. And I have never wanted to drink it to "escape" - I just love how it enhances food. And I'm pretty healthy too.

I even use wine when I take communion with my family in our home.

I'm glad to see places in the bible where it was used. And I also appreciate the places where we are told not to get drunk on it. It can be an easy thing to misuse.

Now - chocolate I do have to worry about.:rolleyes:
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#8
1 Timothy 5:23.
I guess man will have to die and face Christ on judgement day before he finally realizes the word is truth. :)

A glass of red wine is the equivalent to an hour at the gym, says new study | JEWSNEWS
24 glasses of wine per day, and I'll have 6-pack abs? :p

Truthfully, I never developed a taste for alcohol. A little late, but I decided, "If I have to develop a taste for it, chances are good, it's not worth acquiring a taste for." (Alas, one vice too late. Had I just thought that before acquiring a taste for tobacco!
:rolleyes:)

But, I do appreciate that verse for another reason. It proves God doesn't miraculously heal everyone over everything. And whatever was wrong with Tim, it was long-term, since Paul wasn't expecting it to go away in time for his letter to get to Tim.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,952
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#9
Interesting that God let that get into His inspired gospel if you are correct.
Angela, alcohol put me in the hospital, then in a coma, then in a nursing home for a year. Just because I shouldn't drink it doesn't mean the bible is wrong. And you can say the same thing.
Some people can deal with it, have a drink and go to bed, and others like me, and apparently you too, like to keep drinking. It absolutely has some medicinal value or the bible, and science, wouldn't tell us it does. By the grace of God it has no attraction for me now. I can be around it at restaurants or other public venues and have no desire to have any.
Remember what Paul said "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that."

We're all different and we all have to deal with our own burden. But in so doing we shouldn't tell others they must do as us when the word of God clearly says differently. As long as a brother doesn't set a stumbling block, as long as he exercises some discretion, there is nothing wrong, sinful, or unbiblical about alcohol in moderation.

I am not tempted to drink, either. Nor do I condemn those who drink in moderation. But I do repeat that this verse was a private epistle to Timothy, and not a universal principle.

Besides, the original article published by the U of A clearly says that Resveratrol, was NOT given as wine, and that it is also contained in nuts and some fruits. You were trying to prove something from a sensationalist article, instead of the originally published study, which was much more instructive as to what was going on - and it was NOT about drinking nor the 1 Tim 5:23 verse.

So why didn't you start this thread with "nuts and fruit are as good for you as exercising" instead of using an exegetically improper use of the Scripture from Timothy?

(Or even, "nuts, fruit and red wine are as good for you as exercise"?)
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#10
I am not tempted to drink, either. Nor do I condemn those who drink in moderation. But I do repeat that this verse was a private epistle to Timothy, and not a universal principle.

Besides, the original article published by the U of A clearly says that Resveratrol, was NOT given as wine, and that it is also contained in nuts and some fruits. You were trying to prove something from a sensationalist article, instead of the originally published study, which was much more instructive as to what was going on - and it was NOT about drinking nor the 1 Tim 5:23 verse.

So why didn't you start this thread with "nuts and fruit are as good for you as exercising" instead of using an exegetically improper use of the Scripture from Timothy?

(Or even, "nuts, fruit and red wine are as good for you as exercise"?)
Okay, so I'm cutting out the whole debate on alcohol use all together, leaving just about 2% of everything you said. I wouldn't even ask this had you not said it twice, so it sounds like this is very important to you. So, here's the question:
Does that verse mean less just because it was private to Tim?

It sounds like you're discounting a Bible verse here, just because it was a little friend-to-friend sentence in a largely important letter. But, if that's true, (which I highly doubt, knowing you enough to know you're not simply dismissing something in the Bible), then how does that fit in with your beliefs on scriptural?

And really really I'm not saying you are dismissing this verse. I can't imagine you doing that. But it really sounds like it since you wrote it's only a private letter twice. So, I'm just asking what you really meant there, knowing that can't possibly be what you really meant.

(Did you really get my intent? Sometimes I overuse the word "really." lol But this seemed to require an abundance of that word.)
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
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#11
Okay, so I'm cutting out the whole debate on alcohol use all together, leaving just about 2% of everything you said. I wouldn't even ask this had you not said it twice, so it sounds like this is very important to you. So, here's the question:
Does that verse mean less just because it was private to Tim?

It sounds like you're discounting a Bible verse here, just because it was a little friend-to-friend sentence in a largely important letter. But, if that's true, (which I highly doubt, knowing you enough to know you're not simply dismissing something in the Bible), then how does that fit in with your beliefs on scriptural?

And really really I'm not saying you are dismissing this verse. I can't imagine you doing that. But it really sounds like it since you wrote it's only a private letter twice. So, I'm just asking what you really meant there, knowing that can't possibly be what you really meant.

(Did you really get my intent? Sometimes I overuse the word "really." lol But this seemed to require an abundance of that word.)

Part of good biblical exegetics requires taking the verse in context. So that means not only in context of the passage and the book, but the time, and who it was written to.

We have absolutely no idea if Paul was just being specific to Timothy or if it was even red wine. There has been a huge amount of breeding of grapes for wine over the centuries, so perhaps this ancient version of wine did not have any of this key component, resveratrol.

Plus, if you really want to take the verse at its meaning, he is not telling Timothy to take some wine to keep in shape, he is actually telling him to take some wine for his stomach. (Not the abs!). Today, alcohol can be very hard on the stomach, so perhaps this was some form of grape juice. The Greek actually is the same word for wine as grape juice. (Hebrew has both words)

So it bugs me to death, that someone takes a sensationalist article, tacks a Bible verse onto it and implies there is a connection. That is a BIG exegetical stretch. Especially when the actual study didn't even use wine, and cites clearly that some fruits and nuts also have resveratrol in them.

So I am meaning that this OP was bad exegetics, bad science and just generally sensationalistic. So really, really! The need for a few posts of correction.

Besides, it is also bad exegetics to make a doctrine out of one verse, always! Really!

And I am not dismissing this Scripture in any way. But to make the jump from "a little wine for your stomach" to getting in shape with wine strains the text, the meaning and the intent of the passage. Esp. since the article in question was just a hook to get people to justify drinking and actually had NO connection to the Bible verse either.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
766
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Australia
#12
we need to remember that the water at Ephesus was scarcely drinkable, and caused many stomach infections. Paul's advice must be viewed in that light. The only alternative was wine.
The water out of the tap here in Australia tastes like it came out of a swimming pool. If they only had water filters back in those days...
Not that I don't believe you (at this point) but what are the sources for the information about the water in Ephesus?
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#13
Part of good biblical exegetics requires taking the verse in context. So that means not only in context of the passage and the book, but the time, and who it was written to.

We have absolutely no idea if Paul was just being specific to Timothy or if it was even red wine. There has been a huge amount of breeding of grapes for wine over the centuries, so perhaps this ancient version of wine did not have any of this key component, resveratrol.

Plus, if you really want to take the verse at its meaning, he is not telling Timothy to take some wine to keep in shape, he is actually telling him to take some wine for his stomach. (Not the abs!). Today, alcohol can be very hard on the stomach, so perhaps this was some form of grape juice. The Greek actually is the same word for wine as grape juice. (Hebrew has both words)

So it bugs me to death, that someone takes a sensationalist article, tacks a Bible verse onto it and implies there is a connection. That is a BIG exegetical stretch. Especially when the actual study didn't even use wine, and cites clearly that some fruits and nuts also have resveratrol in them.

So I am meaning that this OP was bad exegetics, bad science and just generally sensationalistic. So really, really! The need for a few posts of correction.

Besides, it is also bad exegetics to make a doctrine out of one verse, always! Really!

And I am not dismissing this Scripture in any way. But to make the jump from "a little wine for your stomach" to getting in shape with wine strains the text, the meaning and the intent of the passage. Esp. since the article in question was just a hook to get people to justify drinking and actually had NO connection to the Bible verse either.
Not to worry. I was joking about drinking for abs. I don't even like the stuff. Not sweet. lol

But that's okay, you weren't dismissing the verse like it sounded.

I thought it could be used for it's antibacterial benefits. It seems to kill much of the bad bacteria growing in the stomach making the stomach flora back to balanced.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#14
At the end of the day Jesus was clear....It is NOT THOSE THINGS which enter into a man that defiles a man...there is nothing wrong with a glass of wine as moderation is the key word and not causing a weaker brother to stumble.........!
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#15
Ecclesiastes 10:19 (KJV)
A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.


God made wine , so we can be more merry, on his feasts he made for laughter and celebration,

of the creator on his Holy convocation feast days
 
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Bible_Based

Guest
#16
Proverbs 20:1
"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

I was decieved my whole life. I desire a sober and clear mind, especially in the time we are living.

Let us avoid anything that will cloud our thoughts.

God Bless
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#17
I read somewhere that wine was mixed with water to kill bacteria in bible times. If I remember correctly, the wine of that day wasn't fermented for high alcohol content like it is today. Would I believe it if the govt. says it's good for you? Absolutely not, since the FDA covers up the fact that yellow #5 causes cancer. I just learned that today, yet the results have been around for years.

It may sound like I'm rambling, but the point is why believe the world's news & opinions when they tell more lies than the truth?
 
Jun 23, 2015
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#18
I read somewhere that wine was mixed with water to kill bacteria in bible times. If I remember correctly, the wine of that day wasn't fermented for high alcohol content like it is today. Would I believe it if the govt. says it's good for you? Absolutely not, since the FDA covers up the fact that yellow #5 causes cancer. I just learned that today, yet the results have been around for years.

It may sound like I'm rambling, but the point is why believe the world's news & opinions when they tell more lies than the truth?
Yes, it was mixed with water. I did a study on this awhile back but Ill need to find it. Wine today is nothing as it was in biblical days.
 
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bondservant

Guest
#19
Wine is good for cardio and digestive disorders,why is everyone assuming it was fermented?
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#20
Wine is good for cardio and digestive disorders,why is everyone assuming it was fermented?
You haven't been around here very long I see. Lots of people on here that are for drinking wine are for drinking the high alcohol content versions. Their excuse is "wine is wine". But there's a huge difference between the wine of NT days & the wine we drink now. That's not to say they didn't have strong wine back then...... just a lot less of it. Much of the wine we have today would be considered "strong drink".

The wine of those days was fermented just enough to keep it from going bad..... for storage. Good water back then was hard to come by..... that's why in the OT when the patriarchs stopped to settle down (they were nomads), the FIRST thing they would do is dig a well. When wells went dry during bad seasons, they had their wine supply to hold them over. It was a necessity more than a luxury.