The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, you must know a whole different group of Believers than I do.

he has been using that excuse since he has been here, and has never been able to show us WHO these people are when confronted.

it is there (skinski and others like them) fall back argument when they have no other answer for their self righteousness. It is like the pharisee who would look at the sinner, and refuse to see his own sin.

 

[jonl]

Yes, "confess" it, as in recognizing it and owning up to God to our responsibility to knock it off. But is that running to a priest or standing up in front of the congregation after doing "the walk of shame", baring your soul to all and sundry?

hi W-T: I'm a closet prayer: (Matthew 6:6)

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

I'd be lost in any ritual type church. But if that was the way they were brought up, I can understand their way of worship. I'm an outsider even in informal churches. Hopefully, things change when I get to heaven.

 

[Magenta]

I'm new here...

Welcome to Christian Chat, Jonl!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, Jason, your mixing eternal judgement/death with physical, earthly death.

16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.

There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. (from 1 Jn. 5)​

The Greek for death in 1 John 5:16 is primarily death of the body - physical death. We know that that is the correct meaning because we know that sin - any sin - even just eating from the wrong tree - resulted in spiritual death/separation from God.

There are not some sins that result in spiritual death and some that don't.

1 John 5:17 and Romans 6:23 cannot both be true if 1 John 5:17 is talking about spiritual/eternal death:

17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. (from 1 Jn. 5)

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (from Rom. 6)​

Examples of sin not unto death [of the body] would be backbiting or slander; lying, cheating on one's taxes, etc. We're told to pray for them - let the Holy Spirit work His work in them.

Examples of sin unto death [of the body] for the believer would be drunk or impaired driving. The beating or abuse of a spouse and/or children. They might kill themselves or someone else. In those cases, just praying for them won't cut it - "I am not saying that you should pray about that" - we must step in to avoid the physical death of someone.

The 1 Jn. 5:16 passage is a pastoral passage to help keep the local Body safe in THIS life.

Again, you are not understanding the difference between earthly consequences and eternal judgement.

-JGIG

Jason must have some new gift of the spirit. where he can actually see people die spiritually.

He does not understand, that this passage tells us if we see a brother or sister commitsa sin, and that sin could have caused their death, but God spared their lives, we should confront them, and pray like mad they learn and do not make that same mistake again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm new here and read just a few posts, but I tend to agree with I John 1:9 and this post -- "one still has to confess and forsake sin if it arises in one's life."

so you think a person born of God. Spanked by God because he does a certain sin (we can not hide sin from God like we can from our parent, where we may get away with it, God sees everything)

would never forsake sin or confess it?

 

[flob]

'forsake'------------does that mean to some: try harder to fulfill the law next time?

 

[Willie-T]

hi W-T: I'm a closet prayer: (Matthew 6:6)

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

I'd be lost in any ritual type church. But if that was the way they were brought up, I can understand their way of worship. I'm an outsider even in informal churches. Hopefully, things change when I get to heaven.

I think I like you already!

 

[vic1980]

John 15:22 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

 

[senzi]

Jesus also said his words are spirit and they are life. Jesus also said man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word of God (Which is a reference to OT Scriptures that says we shall live by every Word of God that proceeds out of our mouth). Jesus also said, "if a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Jesus also said, "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Do you know that all who sin and do iniquity in Christ's Kingdom will be removed from His Kingdom? Read Matthew 13:41.

Also, read the end of Matthew chapter 7 on obeying the words of Jesus and the parable that is associated with it. What is better? To obey Jesus or not to obey Jesus?

Do you obey ALL of Jesus commands (matt chs5-7 for example)

Quoting scriptures without understanding the whole message is following the letter not the spirit.
You see I can quote a few scriptures also:

The work of God is this to believe in the one he has sent john 6:29

It does not therefore depend on mans desire or effort but on Gods mercy Rom 16:9

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who has sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he had crossed over from death to life. John 5:24

If you quote some more select verses, I can easily do the same















Do you obey
of christs teaching or do you commit sin?

 

[convallaria]

But Peter DID still discriminate against Gentile Believers some forty years later.

Thank you!

 

[jonl]

so you think a person born of God. Spanked by God because he does a certain sin (we can not hide sin from God like we can from our parent, where we may get away with it, God sees everything)

would never forsake sin or confess it?

I think it’s important to try to forsake sin, especially as the antichrist power seems to be getting stronger for his 3 ½ years (?) of rule. But we have an advocate to help us through: (I John 2)

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[SUP]2[/SUP]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[SUP]3[/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason must have some new gift of the spirit. where he can actually see people die spiritually.

He does not understand, that this passage tells us if we see a brother or sister commitsa sin, and that sin could have caused their death, but God spared their lives, we should confront them, and pray like mad they learn and do not make that same mistake again.

What is 1 John 5:16-18 talking about? Well, this passage is talking about two different types of sin. One type of sin that is forgiven and one type of sin that is not forgiven. Granted, the passage is primarily focused on praying for those who are struggling with a particular sin that they are confessing. This is the "sin that does NOT lead unto spiritual death" (i.e. the Second Death or the Lake of Fire). For the Tax Collector who cried out to God to have mercy on him was justified. The point of why they are praying for him is so that he may stop sinning. For they want him to be healed spiritually and walk uprightly with the LORD and contribute to the body of Christ in righteousness to his fullest potential so as to glorify GOD. While John did not stress before about praying for those believers who have backslidden into sin (and became unsaved and fallen away outside the body because they are refusing to confess and forsake sin that leads unto spiritual death), he does want to point out to the brethren (by way of this epistle) that praying for them is not forbidden of them to do.

See the New Language Translation and the KJV when reading 1 John 5:16-18.

 

[JGIG]

Those parts that I added were to make them say what YOU say they say, not what they actually say.

Wow.

You just cannot see it, can you . . .

Jesus cleanses us from HOW MUCH unrighteousness?

The Blood of Christ cleanses us from HOW MUCH sin?

Confession and the turning away from sin gets you what? Mercy under the Old Covenant or salvation under the New Covenant?

Answer those questions . . . maybe it will help you see . . .

-JGIG

Uh, no. John says we are to sin not. Then he says if we do sin we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ. For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

Jason. HOW MANY sins were forgiven at the Cross?

Please answer the question.

How many?

Confessing sin is not a one time event whereby you can then sin all you want afterwards. John says to .... "sin not." But if you do... there is an advocate. Why? To confess your sin so as to be forgiven of sin. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

Repeated confession to God of sins after salvation is found NO WHERE in the New Covenant Scriptures. Confession of sins for the believer is a GOOD thing, but we are to confess our sins one to another, so that we may pray for one another. NO WHERE in the New Covenant are sins to be continually confessed to God for FORGIVENESS.

Forgiveness is a ONE TIME, COMPLETE GIFT (Heb. 7:25, 10:10,18).

This again, is not a one time event (if you sin again). One still has to confess and forsake sin if it arises again in one's life.

Forgiveness of sins IS a one time event. The 'event' was the Cross. We enter into the forgiveness that was provided at the Cross when we put our faith in Christ.

At that point we HAVE the forgiveness of sinS (Col. 1:13-14, Eph. 1:7-10).

Confess sin = Forgive us of our sin.

No, Jason, the Blood of Christ = Forgiveness of our sin.

Hebrews 9:22 says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

So you're saying one really big false thing:

1. That with confession there is forgiveness of sins

If that were true, Christ need never have done the Work of the Cross.

On top of that, you are putting Christ to open shame, because for there to be more forgiveness, according to the Scriptures, there MUST be more shedding of blood.

You are saying that believers need MORE forgiveness when they sin.

More forgiveness requires MORE BLOOD.

You are saying that what Jesus did on the Cross WAS NOT ENOUGH.

That is contrary to soooo much New Covenant Scripture.

By preaching that belief you are putting Christ's sacrifice on the SAME LEVEL AS BULLS AND GOATS - sacrifices which were required to be made over and over again.

I'm exhorting you, Jason, you really need to look very closely at what you're teaching here - it is demonstrably FALSE.

That is what 1 John 1:9 says. The cleansing of all unrighteousness is past tense and it does not include any future sin that you might plan on doing. For how can you confess future sin? You can't. So 1 John 1:9 is in view to present or past sin that needs to be confessed only.

Again, Jason, you're teaching that confession = forgiveness. It does not. There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood.

I've posted this here before, but it's always a good reminder:

Has God dealt with the sins of the world?​

Yes.
How many times did He deal with it?
Once.
Have your sins been judged?
Yes.
Where were they judged?
At the Cross.
What was the verdict?
Guilty.
What was the punishment?
Death.
Who took it?
Jesus.
How much of it?
All of it.
How much is left for you?
None.

(Quoted from Bob George, The New Covenant Explained http://bobgeorge.net/?ddownload=1833)​

The New Covenant says that if you are in Christ, God is not holding your sins against you and that He remembers your sins no more (2 Cor. 5:18-19, Is. 43:25, Heb. 8:12, Heb. 10:17).

Why are you asking for forgiveness for sins that God is a) not holding against you, b) chooses to not remember, and c) have been COMPLETELY washed away by Christ's Blood at the Cross?

The TRUTH is that ALL of your sins were forgiven BEFORE you committed even ONE of them! ALL sins were dealt with at the Cross 2000 years ago \o/! When you received Christ, you entered into the forgiveness already provided for you.

That's Good News!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I'm new here and read just a few posts, but I tend to agree with I John 1:9 and this post -- "one still has to confess and forsake sin if it arises in one's life."

For forgiveness?

Forgiveness requires the shedding of blood.

Confession is a good thing for believers to do, but not required for forgiveness. The New Covenant Scriptures tell us to confess our sins one to another so that we may pray for one another, but continued confession of sins to God is NOT required.
On the contrary, we're told that where our sins are concerned, God is not holding them against us, He has chosen to remember them no more, and that Christ has saved us completely with one sacrifice for all (2 Cor. 5:18-19, Is. 43:25, Heb. 7:25, Heb. 10:10, 18).

Yes, "confess" it, as in recognizing it and owning up to God to our responsibility to knock it off. But is that running to a priest or standing up in front of the congregation after doing "the walk of shame", baring your soul to all and sundry?

Yes, Willie-T, sooooo much damage has been done in the Body by 'public confession'. Yuk. Most of us don't need to know some of that stuff, ya know?!

Again, we are to confess our sins ONE to ANOTHER, not one to an assembly! One or two trusted, mature believers to whom we can rely on for prayer and support and accountability.

We had a young adult in our fellowship confess openly (not common practice in our fellowship) during a sharing time that he was struggling with pornography. He meant well and thought he was doing the right thing, but later those of us with young children were asked, "What's pornography?" Add onto that the embarrassment he brought to his family who also attend there . . . no - these things are not meant to be confessed publicly, but ONE to ANOTHER!

-JGIG

 

[Willie-T]

For forgiveness?

Forgiveness requires the shedding of blood.

Confession is a good thing for believers to do, but not required for forgiveness. The New Covenant Scriptures tell us to confess our sins one to another so that we may pray for one another, but continued confession of sins to God is NOT required.
On the contrary, we're told that where our sins are concerned, God is not holding them against us, He has chosen to remember them no more, and that Christ has saved us completely with one sacrifice for all (2 Cor. 5:18-19, Is. 43:25, Heb. 7:25, Heb. 10:10, 18).



Yes, Willie-T, sooooo much damage has been done in the Body by 'public confession'. Yuk. Most of us don't need to know some of that stuff, ya know?!

Again, we are to confess our sins ONE to ANOTHER, not one to an assembly! One or two trusted, mature believers to whom we can rely on for prayer and support and accountability.

We had a young adult in our fellowship confess openly (not common practice in our fellowship) during a sharing time that he was struggling with pornography. He meant well and thought he was doing the right thing, but later those of us with young children were asked, "What's pornography?" Add onto that the embarrassment he brought to his family who also attend there . . . no - these things are not meant to be confessed publicly, but ONE to ANOTHER!

-JGIG

I understand you, but I have to say that if we were face-to-face, you and I might have to sit down and have us a long, serious talk about that last paragraph.

 

[JGIG]

What is 1 John 5:16-18 talking about? Well, this passage is talking about two different types of sin. One type of sin that is forgiven and one type of sin that is not forgiven.

No, Jason, not a type of sin that is forgiven and one type of sin that is not forgiven. No place in that passage can one reach that conclusion, and that interpretation completely contradicts Romans 6:23 -

The wages of sin is death.​

This passage has nothing to do with forgiveness, but about EARTHLY CONSEQUENCES. Some sins lead to death - physical death on this Earth, like driving drunk, some sins don't, like cheating on your taxes.

The wages of all sin is death for the UNBELIEVER, but for the BELIEVER (to whom this passage is written), there are sins which lead to physical death on this Earth and some that don't.

Granted, the passage is primarily focused on praying for those who are struggling with a particular sin that they are confessing.

No it's not. There is not ONE WORD about this passage being about folks who are struggling with a particular sin they are confessing:

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death. (from 1 Jn. 5)​

You are COMPLETELY misreading this passage, Jason.

This is the "sin that does NOT lead unto spiritual death" (i.e. the Second Death or the Lake of Fire). For the Tax Collector who cried out to God to have mercy on him was justified. The point of why they are praying for him is so that he may stop sinning. For they want him to be healed spiritually and walk uprightly with the LORD and contribute to the body of Christ in righteousness to his fullest potential so as to glorify GOD. While John did not stress before about praying for those believers who have backslidden into sin (and became unsaved and fallen away outside the body because they are refusing to confess and forsake sin that leads unto spiritual death), he does want to point out to the brethren (by way of this epistle) that praying for them is not forbidden of them to do.

You simply made all of that up.

That passage indicates NONE of that.

And refusing to confess and forsake sin is not what leads to spiritual death; UNBELIEF in Christ is what leads to spiritual death.

Believe in Christ and receive the FREE gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and New Life in Him. Become a New Creation and experience the new desires that God works into the believer.

Jason - challenge for you: Go through the NT and see how many of the people that Jesus forgave in His ministry confessed and repented beforehand.

Let us know what you find .

See the New Language Translation and the KJV when reading 1 John 5:16-18.

Those versions do not remotely support your interpretation, either.

-JGIG

 

[Jason0047]

The moment one says you do not have to lift a finger for God is the moment one just agreed to doing evil. For with no morals or righteousness to obey, you are free to obey all those unrighteous deeds as you please and still be saved. However, that is not the love of God (that should be showing forth in your life if God truly lives in you). For James talks about this. He says it is not correct when a believer tells a poor person be ye well but yet they do not actually do anything to help them. Love is not just a feeling in and of itself. God is love and the Lord will do the good work in you and help you to stop in your sins. This is not by your own power but by God's power. God transforms you spiritualy. For the new man does not continue in the old man's ways. It is an oxymoron. Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not do what I say? The book of Titus says in works they deny HIm. Hebrews says that Jesus is the author of our eternal salvation to all who obey Him. James says faith without works is dead. Jesus said you will know a good tree by it's fruit. Paul said if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing.

 

[PennEd]

For forgiveness?

Forgiveness requires the shedding of blood.

Confession is a good thing for believers to do, but not required for forgiveness. The New Covenant Scriptures tell us to confess our sins one to another so that we may pray for one another, but continued confession of sins to God is NOT required.
On the contrary, we're told that where our sins are concerned, God is not holding them against us, He has chosen to remember them no more, and that Christ has saved us completely with one sacrifice for all (2 Cor. 5:18-19, Is. 43:25, Heb. 7:25, Heb. 10:10, 18).



Yes, Willie-T, sooooo much damage has been done in the Body by 'public confession'. Yuk. Most of us don't need to know some of that stuff, ya know?!

Again, we are to confess our sins ONE to ANOTHER, not one to an assembly! One or two trusted, mature believers to whom we can rely on for prayer and support and accountability.

We had a young adult in our fellowship confess openly (not common practice in our fellowship) during a sharing time that he was struggling with pornography. He meant well and thought he was doing the right thing, but later those of us with young children were asked, "What's pornography?" Add onto that the embarrassment he brought to his family who also attend there . . . no - these things are not meant to be confessed publicly, but ONE to ANOTHER!

-JGIG

What's your thoughts on talking about the sins in a testimony setting to Glorify what God has done in your life? Grace to you.

 

[JGIG]

I understand you, but I have to say that if we were face-to-face, you and I might have to sit down and have us a long, serious talk about that last paragraph.

I'm not saying that all public confession is bad - for someone to confess that they're struggling with receiving God's forgiveness or love or with bitterness, etc. is fine, but sins that, if confessed publicly, do harm to another or bring shame to another, or bring up questions from young children who are innocent and don't need to know certain things yet - those things need to be confessed one to another in a private setting.

Now if someone is confessing to a deviancy of some sort that puts the local Body at risk, then leadership needs to be aware and steps taken for the protection of the Body.

But as a general rule, public confession has become more of a church cultural thing rather than a directed-by-Scripture thing and has done much harm in the Body.

-JGIG

 

[PennEd]

What's your thoughts on talking about the sins in a testimony setting to Glorify what God has done in your life? Grace to you.

I should add that I agree with you, a setting with children, or some others, is not appropriate to get into specific sins.