Rapture= false teaching

[miktre]

CHRIST warned us enough to know that I will be deceived by you if I believe
and to answer you question about how many years have they been preaching about TRIBULATION and RAPTURE
WELL
My Grandfather who was saved thru the ministry of G.T. Haywood at 18 when G.T. was in his 50's
and then my Grandfather became an Pastor and evangelist in 1920
SO take G.T. Haywood
who wrote the song in your hymnals "CRIMSON STREAM OF BLOOD"
He heard it preached when he was saved so that brings us to atleast the past
200 years
and now your new doctrine
IS THE FIRST TIME EVER
I heard it
and I am 41
SO YES
you are fulfilling scripture with false doctrine and ideas based upon your personal views about what you WANT THE SCRIPTURES to say.
IN FACT
you are soo adimant about it
your claiming like they did to JESUS about mine and those who view similar to mine
THAT WE ARE
of SATAN
WOOOOOHOOOOOOO
GO AHEAD
DRIVE THEM NAILS DEEPER BOY
NAIL US TO THE CROSS
YOU RELIGIOUS ZEALOUT

Your doctrine goes against scripture and everything Christ taught. I've seen all of you rapturists ignore scripture after scripture. Pitiful sloppy butchering of the Word at it's worst and those lies only lead God's children to worship the false christ=satan. You will be held accountable.


20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

 

[joint-heir]

Your doctrine goes against scripture and everything Christ taught. I've seen all of you rapturists ignore scripture after scripture. Pitiful sloppy butchering of the Word at it's worst and those lies only lead God's children to worship the false christ=satan. You will be held accountable.


20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

You claim we are butchering
BUT IN FACT
You are putting scripture out of context to add up to your IDEAS
THIS would be ADD/SUBTRACTING GODS WORD
WHICH IS A DIRECT SIN UNTO GOD
WHICH IS SPECIFICLY SPOKEN ABOUT

GO ahead and preach your lies
we will remain to SHOW THE TRUTH
besides I have noticed the only one buying this so-called theory of yours
are the YOUTH
THAT RIGHT THERE
IS A REVELATION UNTO ITSELF
IT IS CALLED
DISOBEDIENT
just like the youth is today they are the most disrespectful, disobedient, arrogant,self-centered
EVER to be in the history of all mankind which tells us we are on the
VERGE of RAPTURE
and the TRIBUATION

 

[miktre]

You claim we are butchering
BUT IN FACT
You are putting scripture out of context to add up to your IDEAS
THIS would be ADD/SUBTRACTING GODS WORD
WHICH IS A DIRECT SIN UNTO GOD
WHICH IS SPECIFICLY SPOKEN ABOUT

GO ahead and preach your lies
we will remain to SHOW THE TRUTH
besides I have noticed the only one buying this so-called theory of yours
are the YOUTH
THAT RIGHT THERE
IS A REVELATION UNTO ITSELF
IT IS CALLED
DISOBEDIENT
just like the youth is today they are the most disrespectful, disobedient, arrogant,self-centered
EVER to be in the history of all mankind which tells us we are on the
VERGE of RAPTURE
and the TRIBUATION

Last trump dude, your lies can't explain it away. To think Paul was talking about 3 trumps is nothing less than pure garbage. When did Paul mention 3 roman army trumps??? Esp. 3 trumps concerning our gathering to Christ? What garbage! You can't even count to 7?
16 'For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first'


51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

 

[VW]

The real trouble with the rapture teaching as it is taught today is that it leaves the believer who subscribes in a place of spiritual complacity. It is the logical extension and result of the formula teaching of salvation and understanding the scriptures. They make everything a formula which is easily understood by the natural mind. Their hope is in escape.

Is there a rapture? Absolutely! Not every Christian will be dead when Christ returns, and those who have slept and await with Him in spirit for the redemption of their flesh will be joined by us who remain alive when He returns. This is scripture, but even more it is the Spirit. There is a resurrection, even at least two resurrections. The first resurrection will see those who are His and still alive changed to be like Him as those who are His are raised from the dead in their flesh. This is the clear teaching of the Spirit, and is written of in the scriptures. If one wishes to deny this, they can.

When will the first resurrection occur? Only the Father knows. I believe that it is before the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth and upon the people who are left here who deserve His wrath.

Is the rapture something to argue about, with the feelings expressed here? Not in this way, not between members of His body. If one is in fault; if, and we can only be absolutely sure in the Spirit that one is at fault, then we should correct in the Spirit, with a heart set on meekness, lest we be tempted to sin. (I am speaking to me as much as to anyone else.)

Let the love of Christ Jesus reign.

 

[Zilla64007]

that's right, joint-heir... 200 years...
that puts us right up to the point to when it was first invented by Edward Irving.

you know, I can go back even further for post-tribulation... i can go back 1500-1700 years with the writings of Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Lactantius, Hippolytus, Victorinus, and even Polycarp, one of the Apostle John's disciples... all taught and were taught that the church would endure at the hands of Antichrist.

You say it's the first time you ever heard it... this is not some new teaching that just sprang up in the middle of nowhere like pre-trib did. Post-tribulation has a history... a long history that goes back to the time of Christ, it can be seen in the Protestant reformers, even the Catholic Church, and even before that.

you call me a religious zealot, and yet I will still call you a brother in Christ... maybe mislead, but you're still my brother, and I love you all the same.
I'd rather you not get your hopes up on something that doesn't exist, and then when it doesn't come, be tempted to fall away when Antichrist reveals himself to the world... I love you too much to see that happen to you. You seem like a devout follower of Chirst... I'd rather you not be tempted to fall away

 

[joint-heir]

Last trump dude, your lies can't explain it away. To think Paul was talking about 3 trumps is nothing less than pure garbage. When did Paul mention 3 roman army trumps??? Esp. 3 trumps concerning our gathering to Christ? What garbage! You can't even count to 7?
16 'For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first'


51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

ILL TELL YOU WHAT I CAN EXPLAIN

AS AN ASSOCIATE PASTOR MYSELF AND AN EVANGELIST I HAVE MORE ISSUES TO DEAL WITH THAN ONE SUBJECT ALTHOUGH I FEEL CONFIDENT IN GOD I UNDERSTAND THE RAPTURE SCENARIO

BUT

HERE IS A SUGGESTION FROM ME TO YOU

IF YOU ARE SOO CERTAIN
THAT YOU ARE MORE THAN JUST CORRECT
BUT ABSOLUTE IN TRUTH
THEN SEEK GOD
BECOME ORDAINED
AND PREACH IT FACE TO FACE AND EXPLAIN
AND STOP
HIDING BEHIND A COMPUTER SCREEN
RAMBLING
LIKE YOU THINK YOU HAVE A CLUE

UNTIL YOU STICK YOUR NECK ON THE LINE FOR REAL FOR GOD
YOU HAVE NOT ACCOMPLISHED A THING

SO FAR
I JUST SEE YOUR IDEAS
NOT
GOD AND HIS HOLY REVELATIONS

 

[miktre]

ILL TELL YOU WHAT I CAN EXPLAIN

AS AN ASSOCIATE PASTOR MYSELF AND AN EVANGELIST I HAVE MORE ISSUES TO DEAL WITH THAN ONE SUBJECT ALTHOUGH I FEEL CONFIDENT IN GOD I UNDERSTAND THE RAPTURE SCENARIO

BUT

HERE IS A SUGGESTION FROM ME TO YOU

IF YOU ARE SOO CERTAIN
THAT YOU ARE MORE THAN JUST CORRECT
BUT ABSOLUTE IN TRUTH
THEN SEEK GOD
BECOME ORDAINED
AND PREACH IT FACE TO FACE AND EXPLAIN
AND STOP
HIDING BEHIND A COMPUTER SCREEN
RAMBLING
LIKE YOU THINK YOU HAVE A CLUE

UNTIL YOU STICK YOUR NECK ON THE LINE FOR REAL FOR GOD
YOU HAVE NOT ACCOMPLISHED A THING

SO FAR
I JUST SEE YOUR IDEAS
NOT
GOD AND HIS HOLY REVELATIONS

Last trump dude, your lies can't explain it away. To think Paul was talking about 3 trumps is nothing less than pure garbage. When did Paul mention 3 roman army trumps??? Esp. 3 trumps concerning our gathering to Christ? What garbage! You can't even count to 7?
16 'For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first'


51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed __________________

 

[joint-heir]

Last trump dude, your lies can't explain it away. To think Paul was talking about 3 trumps is nothing less than pure garbage. When did Paul mention 3 roman army trumps??? Esp. 3 trumps concerning our gathering to Christ? What garbage! You can't even count to 7?
16 'For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first'


51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed __________________

THE 7TH TRUMP
IS ARMAGEDDON AND LEADING INTO MILLENEUM REIGN

THIS IS WHERE JESUS PHYSICALLY APPEARS FOR SECOND TIME ON EARTH
THIS IS
DIFFERENT FROM RAPTURE WHERE HE WILL BE IN THE CLOUDS "TO CATCH US UP"
BUT
AT 7TH TRUMP JESUS AND US THE BRIDE WILL COME DOWN AND BATTLE AT ARMAGEDDON
THEN
AFTERWARDS
NEW JERUSALEM WILL COME DOWN AND THE MILLENEAL REIGN WILL BEGIN

NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT
IT IS AS CLEAR AS LOOKING OUT A BRAND NEW WINDOW
THE SCRIPTURES
CANNOT BE ANY CLEARER

 

[miktre]

THE 7TH TRUMP
IS ARMAGEDDON AND LEADING INTO MILLENEUM REIGN

THIS IS WHERE JESUS PHYSICALLY APPEARS FOR SECOND TIME ON EARTH
THIS IS
DIFFERENT FROM RAPTURE WHERE HE WILL BE IN THE CLOUDS "TO CATCH US UP"
BUT
AT 7TH TRUMP JESUS AND US THE BRIDE WILL COME DOWN AND BATTLE AT ARMAGEDDON
THEN
AFTERWARDS
NEW JERUSALEM WILL COME DOWN AND THE MILLENEAL REIGN WILL BEGIN

NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT
IT IS AS CLEAR AS LOOKING OUT A BRAND NEW WINDOW
THE SCRIPTURES
CANNOT BE ANY CLEARER

You have got to be kidding, I'll post the scripture.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You are really going to tell me these are speaking of separate events???????????????
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

 

[joint-heir]

IF YOUR REFERRING TO
1 THESSALONIAN 5
READ CAREFULLY VERSE 3
5:3...FOR WHEN THEY SHALL SAY PEACE AND SAFETY; THEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMETH UPON THEM.......???
FOR ONE
THIS IS SOOOO CLEAR A BLIND MAN CAN SEE
IF THE ANTICHRIST IS CREATING WAR IN HIS FIRST 3 1/2 YEARS LIKE WE SEE HE DOES SO THAT ISRAEL WILL MAKE A PEACE AGREEMENT WITH HIM
THEN
THE BRIDE IN VERSE 3
WOULD NOT BE SAYING...PEACE AND SAFETY BEFORE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION
THAT WOULD BE IDIOTIC

THIS IS TELLING ME
DURING THE TIMES WHEN WE THINK OF PEACE AND SAFETY WHICH IS BEFORE TRIBULATION
WILL THE RAPTURE TAKE PLACE
AND IT CANNOT BE ANY MORE SPECIFIC THAN THAT

 

[miktre]

IF YOUR REFERRING TO
1 THESSALONIAN 5
READ CAREFULLY VERSE 3
5:3...FOR WHEN THEY SHALL SAY PEACE AND SAFETY; THEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMETH UPON THEM.......???
CAUSE THEY THINK THEY ARE WORSHIPING GOD BUT IT"S THE FAKE!
FOR ONE
THIS IS SOOOO CLEAR A BLIND MAN CAN SEE
Only a blind man could see that!
IF THE ANTICHRIST IS CREATING WAR IN HIS FIRST 3 1/2 YEARS LIKE WE SEE HE DOES SO THAT ISRAEL WILL MAKE A PEACE AGREEMENT WITH HIM
THEN
THE BRIDE IN VERSE 3
WOULD NOT BE SAYING...PEACE AND SAFETY BEFORE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION
THAT WOULD BE IDIOTIC
Doesn't say the bride is the one that says peace and safety.


THIS IS TELLING ME
DURING THE TIMES WHEN WE THINK OF PEACE AND SAFETY WHICH IS BEFORE TRIBULATION
WILL THE RAPTURE TAKE PLACE
AND IT CANNOT BE ANY MORE SPECIFIC THAN THAT
Take a LOOk again
Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
They is not the bride as you suggest, but those the sudden destruction comes upon.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


You didn't address this yet:
You have got to be kidding, I'll post the scripture.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You are really going to tell me these are speaking of separate events???????????????
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

 

[MahogonySnail]

Actually not all will die, those alive when Christ returns will be changed in the twinkling of an eye!

and there where a few that were raptured by God in the OT.

The bible does teach that doesn't it. But this is at the LAST trumpet.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Theres no rapture at the end either, the angels gather us together at the last trump.

Yes that's what the early church believed, and many great protestant theologians too.

"new ideas"
"new teachings"

i find that slightly humorous because pre-tribulation is still relatively a new teaching in retrospect to the teachings in the church starting from the first century to today

Exactly. In fact it was looking back into church history that God used to show me how the pre-trib rapture was false and modern day doctrine of demons and end-times heresy.

Notice the lack of historical support AND biblical references in the pre-tribbers arguments.

The best "scripture" a pre-tribber has come up with yet in SIX MONTHS of debating this topic, is ONLY TWO supposed references to a pre-trib rapture in a NON-CANONICAL writing known as pseudo-Ephraim whose authorship and authenticity is questionable.

The simple fact remains: Pre-tribbers can not believe in sola-scriptura or the testimony of the apostolic and catholic church. Most pre-tribbers believe in successive revelation (i.e. that revelation was not closed with the canon) and that's the lie of man they use to justify their false doctrine.

 

[joint-heir]

FROM MIKTRE
Take a LOOk again
Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
They is not the bride as you suggest, but those the sudden destruction comes upon.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


FROM JOINT-HEIR
GOOD
YOU TOOK THE BAIT
YOU ARE CORRECT
THIS IS NOT THE BRIDE
FOR IN FACT
THE BRIDE WILL NOT EVEN BE THERE AT THIS TIME
THIS IS THOSE IN TRIBULATION
JUST BEFORE ARMAGEDDON
TAKES PLACE
WHICH IS THE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION

I AM GLAD YOU DISCOVERED THIS FOR YOURSELF

SEE
WE WONT EVEN BE HERE
AND YOU JUST POINTED IT OUT
CONGRATULATIONS
YOU ARE A PRE-TRIBBER
YOU JUST NEVER KNEW IT

 

[Zilla64007]

The best "scripture" a pre-tribber has come up with yet in SIX MONTHS of debating this topic, is ONLY TWO supposed references to a pre-trib rapture in a NON-CANONICAL writing known as pseudo-Ephraim whose authorship and authenticity is questionable.

http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/ephraem1.html

 

[miktre]

FROM MIKTRE
Take a LOOk again
Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
They is not the bride as you suggest, but those the sudden destruction comes upon.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


FROM JOINT-HEIR
GOOD
YOU TOOK THE BAIT
YOU ARE CORRECT
THIS IS NOT THE BRIDE
FOR IN FACT
THE BRIDE WILL NOT EVEN BE THERE AT THIS TIME
THIS IS THOSE IN TRIBULATION
JUST BEFORE ARMAGEDDON
TAKES PLACE
WHICH IS THE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION

I AM GLAD YOU DISCOVERED THIS FOR YOURSELF

SEE
WE WONT EVEN BE HERE
AND YOU JUST POINTED IT OUT
CONGRATULATIONS
YOU ARE A PRE-TRIBBER
YOU JUST NEVER KNEW IT

What in those verses says anything about rapture? More bizarre methodology from you.

Anyways are you still dodging the scripture we were talking about by changing the subject?
I'll post it again:

You have got to be kidding, I'll post the scripture.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You are really going to tell me these are speaking of separate events???????????????
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

 

[joint-heir]

FROM MIKTRE

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You are really going to tell me these are speaking of separate events???????????????
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed


FROM JOINT-HEIR

VERSES 16 AND 17
ARE THE FIRST TRUMP
BY WHICH THE DEAD IN CHRIST AND WE THAT ARE ALIVE THE BRIDE WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITH JESUS

VERSE 52
IS RIGHT BEFORE JESUS COMES DOWN TO EARTH FROM ARMAGEDDON
AND NOTICE
THE VERSES BEFORE AND AFTER 52 DO NOT SPEAK ABOUT THE LIVING
BECAUSE
THESE ARE THE DEAD WHO DID NOT TAKE THE 666 MARK

YES
THESE ARE CLEARLY
2 SEPARATE TRUMPS AND RESURRECTIONS OF RAPTURE

 

[MyBagsRPacked]

Acts 1:9-11 (New International Version)



9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

 

[Zilla64007]

notice Christ didn't start to go up, then come back down to the earth, chat with the disciples a little bit, then go into the sky...
nor did Jesus start to go up, hide in a cloud, then stick His head out, say "peek-a-boo, I see you", then head up into heaven...

He went straight up into heaven without stopping, did not pass go/did not collect 200 dollars... He completely ascended.
He will come straight down to earth without stopping, do not pause/do not collect the church up for a pre-trib rapture... He will completely descend.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

descend = καταβαίνω
G2597
καταβαίνω
katabainō
kat-ab-ah'ee-no
From G2596 and the base of G939; to descend (literally or figuratively): - come (get, go, step) down, descend, fall (down).

G2596
κατά
kata
kat-ah'
A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

http://www.biblestudysite.com/prepositions.gif

G939
βάσις
basis
bas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō (to walk); a pace (“base&#8221, that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

#3509 is only used the once though.

If you want to ignore the spiritual meaning of it fine, still doesn't mean anything about it happening before the tribulation. It happens at the last trump, and your lies about the seventh trump not being the last is nothing less than heresy.

#3509-lol that sounds so funny--nephos is only used once, but only in Hebrews and so even if you distiguish it in this way it only applies to the Hebrews passage. So, Matt. 17:5 a bright cloud (nephelee) overshadowed them. Was this a congregation of people? Did the voice of God speak out of the crowd of people? Sorry, no spiritual meaning there. I interpret it in context beginning with the literal and only see it as a metaphor when force to by context.
Do you believe that there will be no trumpets in heaven? Last is always relative. The trumpet of which he speaks may be the trumpets of our usefulness.