The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[Willie-T]

Did they alter the coarse of sinful natures control over them? Or any of mankind? Did they repent of the position of relying on the law as a means to and end with God, when John was sent with the message of repentance as a red carpet to the eventual answer, the Spirit baptism vs. the water baptism? What is the point of noticing anything they did in relationship to the goodness they wanted to show?? I notice the work ethic of Mormons, I notice the work ethic of Catholics, which i can appreciate, but I do not believe the beliefs they hold make a difference to my Salvation. So what's the point? The point to me is there is a difference between the law of man, as a means to an end, and the laws of God, which are ordained by God and are worked out by Christ in us. One is a means to an end, one is a response to the giver of the already accomplished request. Not a comparison that is equal in comparison at all. I serve a full powered God, not a half-powered one.

I didn't make one single reference to their standing with Jesus.

They were Jews! They believed and acted like Jews in the most sincere understanding of their interpretation of the Scriptures.

To their way of thinking, they were being totally faithful to God, and followed the religion they had grown up knowing.

Jesus even said on the crosss.... "They do not understand what they are doing."

 

[Jason0047]

lol @ this whole debacle.

whacha gonna do, say "um, meet me behind the dumpsters in 2 hrs and i'll do a good deed but don't tell anyone"

Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to act.
Do not say to your neighbor, "Come back tomorrow and I'll give it to you" -
- when you already have it with you.
(Proverbs 3:27-28)
​

Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say,
‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’
And suppose the one inside answers,
‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’
(Luke 11:5-7)



​

First, the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament as far as teachings are concerned. Second, the passage in Proverbs is not in conflict with giving in secret, either. A person can tell them to follow them to a place where people are not paying attention or to a place where there are no people are around. Third, the passage in Luke is focusing on the person who is like Christ. Because if a person truly is born again and following Christ for real, then they will ask and God will help them because he is their friend. And who are the friends of Jesus? Those wbo disobey His Commands? No. The Scriptures say the friends of Jesus are those who obey His Commands. Besides, nothing is said of how this man was giving in front of a crowd of people, either.

 

[senzi]

The primary command is to love; Which fulfills even the Old moral that has been carried over into the New Testament (See Romans 13). However, to whom much is given, much is required. However, the teachings of Jesus in the gospels were primarily New Testament and not Old Testament. This is important to understand because Paul says if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Are you saying we can disobey the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness?

Also, what is your answer as to WHO Jesus was talking to in Matthew 6:15?

Was Jesus talking to the believer or the unbeliever?

You have two choices. Either you look to the literal letter of all of christs commands and strive to obey them all, or you can believe Jesus teaching can be summed up as examples of love God and love your neighbour. I know which way Paul viewed it:
Carry each others burdens(love) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2

Don't cherry pick certain commands. If you believe we must look to the literal letter of christs commandments, do you obey them all? If you do not are you wilfully sonning against God or just a babe in the faith?

 

[slave]

lol @ this whole debacle.

whacha gonna do, say "um, meet me behind the dumpsters in 2 hrs and i'll do a good deed but don't tell anyone"

Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to act.
Do not say to your neighbor, "Come back tomorrow and I'll give it to you" -
- when you already have it with you.
(Proverbs 3:27-28)
​

Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say,
‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’
And suppose the one inside answers,
‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’
(Luke 11:5-7)



​

Could it be that Jason simply meant it is beneficial to come from a position of humility? Not to mean a specific judgmental act is required?

"But when you are invited take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, "Friend, move up to a better place." Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests." Luke 14:10.

 

[slave]

You have two choices. Either you look to the literal letter of all of christs commands and strive to obey them all, or you can believe Jesus teaching can be summed up as examples of love God and love your neighbour. I know which way Paul viewed it:
Carry each others burdens(love) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2

Don't cherry pick certain commands. If you believe we must look to the literal letter of christs commandments, do you obey them all? If you do not are you wilfully sonning against God or just a babe in the faith?

Does Christ come to you and say a command, later to walk away and say, "Oops, I didn't mean that literally, just do it the best you can?" The focus here is on us, and on the Law and our relationship to it. Where is Christ's focus in His ability to finish what He asks? I don't think it is silly to look at what God says and to take it literally, For He mentions that too, Let your "Yes" be yes and your "No" be no....integrity from God is as important to us as integrity to God is to Him.

 

[KennethC]

here's something about the "final stage of our salvation"

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
(Romans 8:23-25)
​

hmm, says here we were saved - saved in hope of the redemption of our bodies, and that is what we patiently wait for.
doesn't say that we are not saved until our bodies are redeemed and free of all sin & unholy lust.
says salvation is a past-tense thing we passively received, the Spirit a present-tense thing we also received, and the "perfection" of our bodies a future hope we passively await.

so what do we all think that means about this idea of present-time sinless perfectionism, or redemption of our flesh as pre-requisite to our hope?

who hopes for what they already have? ​

actually Paul talks about salvation mostly in the past tense - a thing already given to us. he talks about us as those who "have been saved" - not as those who "might be saved if they perfect themselves"

the Perfector - it is Christ, not me. the completion of His work in me is what i hope for - with assurance, because it has begun - and when that work is finished, i will no longer need His mercy, because of His mercy. on that day, we will be with Him, and fully made like Him.
as for now, i stand continually in a time of need, always requiring His mercy, and always standing only because of it.

the weightier matters - justice, faith, mercy -- the Father has justified me, it is His faithfulness towards me that my faith is in, and it is His mercy i look toward and try to emulate.
these three things, that i love, none of them are found in me except He put them there and does them in and through me.

that salvation that we hope for in the future is the completion and culmination of the thing God is doing in us presently -- see my post above
i have no doubt He is able to finish what He started. i don't care to be fooled into thinking it is already accomplished though - isn't my existence here on this earth right now proof that He's still working on me?
but to think this Master Carpenter will put His tools down and leave me on the workbench unfinished, or toss me into a scrap pile like a failed project - that is no faith at all.
we have assurance, because we know He is able, and faithful, and we know He has begun this thing in us.

No Apostle Paul does not speak as salvation as a past-tense receiving, and the confusion comes from placing saved and salvation as one and the same. Here is Apostle Paul and each time shows we hope to receive and seek for salvation/eternal life, and even your scripture above from Romans 8:23-25 shows that we wait patiently to receive it;

All of these from Paul show salvation/eternal life is a future possession:

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.




Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:




1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is (physical life), and of that which is to come.(eternal life)




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




Colossians 1:22-23
In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[slave]

I didn't make one single reference to their standing with Jesus.

They were Jews! They believed and acted like Jews in the most sincere understanding of their interpretation of the Scriptures.

To their way of thinking, they were being totally faithful to God, and followed the religion they had grown up knowing.

Jesus even said on the crosss.... "They do not understand what they are doing."

Yes, but the value of there attempt is fruitless was my point. God loves each and everyone of His children, including the Pharisees. His correction to them was the value of their "Doings." Satan was a right hand servant of God once too but do you praise that today? Why? Because what would be the point of what He has become? For there is no hope left in Him. For there is no more God to be favored. God still has hope for all of us until death, this is the reason we debate these issues to reconcile ourselves to that hope found in Christ Jesus our Lord. The issue is Christ not anything we do, or anything you equate He asks as to what we lack.

 

[phil112]

It is sad that so many people cling so blindly and stubbornly to false doctrine. Paul had much to say about those hard-headed people, but that is for another time.
Reading a couple of days ago and put off posting this passage, but now it seems appropriate.

Philippians 3:11-15If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

His use of "if" is noteworthy here. He clearly states he hasn't obtained the prize yet. "I follow after" meaning that he is pursuing that goal.
"reaching forth" means to exert one's self, to put some strenuous effort into. Why would he do that for something he already possess?
Again, "I press toward the mark" emphasizes his focus, all his strength and breath, his complete being, on attaining the prize. Again, why that kind of effort for something he holds in his hand?
Finally, he urges us to be as he, to be perfect, mature in the word and the Lord, to strive with him for that prize.

Folks, if Paul had to keep working towards that prize, if he didn't possess it by then, I assure that you certainly don't. I wish there was some way to soften the hardness of some of you folks hearts. This is plain an simple scripture. In the words of my favorite pastor during one sermon, "This scripture is so simple that even the women and children can understand it".
So why can't you?

 

[KennethC]

It is sad that so many people cling so blindly and stubbornly to false doctrine. Paul had much to say about those hard-headed people, but that is for another time.
Reading a couple of days ago and put off posting this passage, but now it seems appropriate.
His use of "if" is noteworthy here. He clearly states he hasn't obtained the prize yet. "I follow after" meaning that he is pursuing that goal.
"reaching forth" means to exert one's self, to put some strenuous effort into. Why would he do that for something he already possess?
Again, "I press toward the mark" emphasizes his focus, all his strength and breath, his complete being, on attaining the prize. Again, why that kind of effort for something he holds in his hand?
Finally, he urges us to be as he, to be perfect, mature in the word and the Lord, to strive with him for that prize.

Folks, if Paul had to keep working towards that prize, if he didn't possess it by then, I assure that you certainly don't. I wish there was some way to soften the hardness of some of you folks hearts. This is plain an simple scripture. In the words of my favorite pastor during one sermon, "This scripture is so simple that even the women and children can understand it".
So why can't you?

It is because they have been told by those who have instructed them that any thing that speaks on future receiving of something is only speaking of rewards. But the scriptures I showed previously in #426 clearly say salvation and eternal life, not rewards, and shows that Paul puts salvation/eternal life as the ending result of keeping the faith.

Same as what Apostle Peter showed in 1 Peter 1:4-9............

 

[senzi]

Does Christ come to you and say a command, later to walk away and say, "Oops, I didn't mean that literally, just do it the best you can?" The focus here is on us, and on the Law and our relationship to it. Where is Christ's focus in His ability to finish what He asks? I don't think it is silly to look at what God says and to take it literally, For He mentions that too, Let your "Yes" be yes and your "No" be no....integrity from God is as important to us as integrity to God is to Him.

The law God requires you to keep is within you. It is placed on your heart and written on your mind. You in your heart want to obey it, and when you err from ot your conscience is seered by doing so. For you have been born again of the holy spirit.
Everything changed at the point of conversion. You were forever supernaturally changed.
No one obeys the letter but through the fruits of the spirit the heart of the law is reflected in the christians life, for there is no conflict between the fruit of the spirit and the heart of Gods laws. They are the same thing

 

[VioletReigns]

Jesus spoke in parables so only those who's hearts were turned to Him could hear and understand. Jesus said as it was prophesied in Isaiah that "many prophets & righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." But Jesus said if they would turn their hearts toward Him they would be healed and could see & understand Him.

Jesus said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables."

The Lord is saying that those who try to understand Him with their own understanding, what truth they have will not hold up and won't keep them. Because it's by their own limited understanding. It doesn't have roots into eternity. It's all by their own efforts. But those who have total dependence on Jesus Christ alone, will gain more and more as they grow in the knowledge of HIM ALONE.

And Jesus said if prophets & righteous people would turn their calloused hearts toward Him and surrender their own carnal understanding, Jesus would heal them. He's telling them, "Stop trying to understand me with your intellectual minds. Give me your heart and I will show you Me. I am the Truth."

Test yourself. Go to the throne room of God right now. What do you have in your hands to give to Him? Is it your obedience to the law? Is it your knowledge of the Scriptures? Is it all your works? Is it your gifts? What of yourself do you believe is worthy enough to bring to Almighty God for His great love for you? All He wants is your heart surrendered into His hands.

Those same prophets and righteous people will say, "Lord, Lord, didn't we teach and prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And, "When did we see you in need and didn't help you?’

And Jesus answers, "When you failed to show love toward even the least of these people, you failed to show love toward me. Go away, I don't even know you."

It's all a heart matter. Everyone who exhibits Christ-like love toward others, shows God's great compassion toward others, is gracious and kind to others, is genuinely concerned for the hurting and reaches out to help those in need, is born of God and knows Jesus and Jesus knows them. God's purpose is to conform us into the likeness of His Son Jesus Christ that the world would see His love and be drawn to the Father. It is entirely the work of God. Otherwise, it won't last.

When we surrender our hearts to God, His Holy Spirit begins His work in us, He puts a desire in us to follow Him, makes us want to do as Jesus did. And the Spirit of Christ Jesus teaches us day by day and conforms us into Him image more and more abundantly. Everything else is self-effort, just wood, hay & stubble. It's of no use to God's purpose. In fact, everything else hinders people from seeing the love of Jesus Christ in this world.

[video=youtube;qULtV42ft7s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qULtV42ft7s[/video]

 

[Dan_473]

And this is the problem with the thinking of believers today. They think going to a church makes them right with God. It doesn't. You will find no Command to attend a church like building with believers in relalation to being right with God spiritually. The Scriptures say do not forsake fellowship. This means have fellowship with believers. This can be with 2-3 believers at work, in your home, and or in a public place. I have been to a lot of churches, and something is always off in some way. They should be teaching the meat of God's Word but they are still on milk. They should be encouraging believers to get together in groups so as to witness to the neighborhood and or pass out Bible tracts. They should be teaching and training young men and women in the Word of God for free. They should be teaching believers in how to stop sinning. But it is more a light show so as to bring people in so as to accept Christ, feed them treats, and then from there it is on you. There is no training in righteousness. No program set in place to help point someone to walk like Jesus walked. They concern themselves with worldly matters when Jesus should be the focus and treasure in all they do. For there should not be one person who walks into a church and not be a part of being a disciple for Jesus Christ (if they accepted Him as Lord and Savior). But do we see that? No. We sure don't. We are living in the last days, for sure (Where the love of many has waxed cold).

there are many good points in your post...

Jesus said that where two or three are gathered in his name, he's there too... so those small groups would be part of the church, too...

are you part of one of those small groups that gather in his name?

 

[VioletReigns]

I'm sitting here thinking of the Apostle Paul being imprisoned and beaten up so badly, often within an inch of his life. Nevertheless, no matter what prison he was in, the Gospel of Jesus Christ was furthered and the Kingdom of God grew rapidly, the Word says.

Now, can you imagine Paul preaching the fire & brimstone stuff that gets posted in these forums? Can you even imagine Paul telling the guard who was beating him, "You are going to hell! You better repent! You better follow the law!" And then proceed to recite pages of Scripture? That guard would have killed Paul in a heartbeat!

No, but Paul joyfully told the guard about Jesus Christ and how his eyes were made open to the Lord Himself. Paul talked about Jesus and the guard was stunned that Paul would offer him such life and hope after he had harmed Paul so badly. Paul showed the guard the love of God and said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, and your whole family."

Paul exhibited the love of Jesus Christ to the guard and preached Jesus Christ crucified. That was it. Jesus Christ is effective enough to make men new.

 

[KennethC]

I'm sitting here thinking of the Apostle Paul being imprisoned and beaten up so badly, often within an inch of his life. Nevertheless, no matter what prison he was in, the Gospel of Jesus Christ was furthered and the Kingdom of God grew rapidly, the Word says.

Now, can you imagine Paul preaching the fire & brimstone stuff that gets posted in these forums? Can you even imagine Paul telling the guard who was beating him, "You are going to hell! You better repent! You better follow the law!" And then proceed to recite pages of Scripture? That guard would have killed Paul in a heartbeat!

No, but Paul joyfully told the guard about Jesus Christ and how his eyes were made open to the Lord Himself. Paul talked about Jesus and the guard was stunned that Paul would offer him such life and hope after he had harmed Paul so badly. Paul showed the guard the love of God and said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, and your whole family."

Paul exhibited the love of Jesus Christ to the guard and preached Jesus Christ crucified. That was it. Jesus Christ is effective enough to make men new.

Yes but there is a big difference in bringing one to know Christ for the first time, and one who has already heard the truth but walks around in a perverted version of the gospel that actually makes it a different gospel with no power to save.

In this issue Paul did handle it properly because he brought the guard to know Christ for the first time, but in other cases when Paul confronted believers who have already heard the truth but were walking improperly he called them out on their behavior and showed them by the word how to properly walk in the faith.

 

[Gr8grace]

It is sad that so many people cling so blindly and stubbornly to false doctrine. Paul had much to say about those hard-headed people, but that is for another time.
Reading a couple of days ago and put off posting this passage, but now it seems appropriate.
His use of "if" is noteworthy here. He clearly states he hasn't obtained the prize yet. "I follow after" meaning that he is pursuing that goal.
"reaching forth" means to exert one's self, to put some strenuous effort into. Why would he do that for something he already possess?
Again, "I press toward the mark" emphasizes his focus, all his strength and breath, his complete being, on attaining the prize. Again, why that kind of effort for something he holds in his hand?
Finally, he urges us to be as he, to be perfect, mature in the word and the Lord, to strive with him for that prize.

Folks, if Paul had to keep working towards that prize, if he didn't possess it by then, I assure that you certainly don't. I wish there was some way to soften the hardness of some of you folks hearts. This is plain an simple scripture. In the words of my favorite pastor during one sermon, "This scripture is so simple that even the women and children can understand it".
So why can't you?

Because Paul is not talking about salvation(Gift).


He is talking about spiritual maturity. The goal for all born-again believers is to advance to spiritual maturity.

Mark 4~~ 26And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; 27and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know. 28“The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade(child), then the head(adolescence), then the mature(Adult/spiritual maturity) grain in the head. 29“But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”

Once the seed sprouts(eternal life/born again) there is life(salvation) in every stage of growth.

And Paul knows that the sickle is coming soon for him, and He wants to reach maximum spiritual maturity before that happens.

 

[VioletReigns]

Yes but there is a big difference in bringing one to know Christ for the first time, and one who has already heard the truth but walks around in a perverted version of the gospel that actually makes it a different gospel with no power to save.

In this issue Paul did handle it properly because he brought the guard to know Christ for the first time, but in other cases when Paul confronted believers who have already heard the truth but were walking improperly he called them out on their behavior and showed them by the word how to properly walk in the faith.

That I agree with. You're right. Paul told them:

"You foolish Galatians! Did someone put a hex on you? Have you taken leave of your senses? Something crazy has happened, for it’s obvious that you no longer have the crucified Jesus in clear focus in your lives. His sacrifice on the cross was certainly set before you clearly enough.

Let me put this question to you: How did your new life begin? Was it by working your heads off to please God? Or was it by responding to God’s message to you? Are you going to continue this insanity? For only crazy people would think they could complete by their own efforts what was begun by God. If you weren’t smart enough or strong enough to begin it, how do you suppose you could perfect it? Did you go through this whole painful learning process for nothing? It is not yet a total loss, but it certainly will be if you keep this up!"

 

[Jason0047]

You have two choices. Either you look to the literal letter of all of christs commands and strive to obey them all, or you can believe Jesus teaching can be summed up as examples of love God and love your neighbour. I know which way Paul viewed it:
Carry each others burdens(love) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2

Don't cherry pick certain commands. If you believe we must look to the literal letter of christs commandments, do you obey them all? If you do not are you wilfully sonning against God or just a babe in the faith?

I am not cherry picking. I am saying when a person first accepts Christ they do not get an instantaneous Matrix download of all of Christ's Commands from the New Testament. It takes time to study His Commands. But the base line Command is to love (Which covers alot of what is taught in the New Testament). Oh, and if you do not think that what Paul had written is not to be considered as Commands, then you would be wrong. Paul said that what he had written should be considered as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also said if any man teaches contrary to the WORDS of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). So there we have it. If you ignore Jesus' words you would be considered proud and as knowing nothing according to Paul. If you desire to not take seriously what Paul had written, then you would disregarding the Commands from the LORD.

 

[senzi]

I am not cherry picking. I am saying when a person first accepts Christ they do not get an instantaneous Matrix download of all of Christ's Commands from the New Testament. It takes time to study His Commands. But the base line Command is to love (Which covers alot of what is taught in the New Testament). Oh, and if you do not think that what Paul had written is not to be considered as Commands, then you would be wrong. Paul said that what he had written should be considered as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also said if any man teaches contrary to the WORDS of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). So there we have it. If you ignore Jesus' words you would be considered proud and as knowing nothing according to Paul. If you desire to not take seriously what Paul had written, then you would disregarding the Commands from the LORD.

I take Paul most seriously

Carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ gal6:2

The only way you can have a righteousness apart from law is if Jesus died for all your sins past, present and future.
Those who love God with all their heart will rejoice in that, and could not use such knowledge as a licence to sin
Whereas those stuck in the letter will not see I sadly

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I didn't make one single reference to their standing with Jesus.

They were Jews! They believed and acted like Jews in the most sincere understanding of their interpretation of the Scriptures.

To their way of thinking, they were being totally faithful to God, and followed the religion they had grown up knowing.

Jesus even said on the crosss.... "They do not understand what they are doing."

just like the legalism of today, they do not understand what they are doing.

people do not understand, Satan comes as an angel of light. They may look good on the outside, but inside, they are dark. and they do not even see it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is sad that so many people cling so blindly and stubbornly to false doctrine. Paul had much to say about those hard-headed people, but that is for another time.
Reading a couple of days ago and put off posting this passage, but now it seems appropriate.
His use of "if" is noteworthy here. He clearly states he hasn't obtained the prize yet. "I follow after" meaning that he is pursuing that goal.
"reaching forth" means to exert one's self, to put some strenuous effort into. Why would he do that for something he already possess?
Again, "I press toward the mark" emphasizes his focus, all his strength and breath, his complete being, on attaining the prize. Again, why that kind of effort for something he holds in his hand?
Finally, he urges us to be as he, to be perfect, mature in the word and the Lord, to strive with him for that prize.

Folks, if Paul had to keep working towards that prize, if he didn't possess it by then, I assure that you certainly don't. I wish there was some way to soften the hardness of some of you folks hearts. This is plain an simple scripture. In the words of my favorite pastor during one sermon, "This scripture is so simple that even the women and children can understand it".
So why can't you?

You mean the same paul that said if it is of grace it is not of works.

The same paul who said that if Abraham worked for it, he had to earn it and thus it would be a reward. But it was not of works.

The same paul who said salvation was by grace, it was a gift of God. not something to be earned.

He all of a sudden got confused, and said he is now working tro earn the reward.

why do you all want to make paul an author of confusion, who says one thing one day, and then the net contradicts himself and says somethign else?