The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists
- Thread starter Budman
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
Amen sis, I ask that myself (where he gets this stuff)
I find it amazing, When Christ walked the earth, he did not yell at sinners, He did not bash the sinners, He did not judge the sinners.
He yelled, screamed and judged the religious biggots who thought they were so good and so holy they could not even walk near a sinner without getting dirty.
Sound alot like some of these people in here.
I find it amazing, When Christ walked the earth, he did not yell at sinners, He did not bash the sinners, He did not judge the sinners.
He yelled, screamed and judged the religious biggots who thought they were so good and so holy they could not even walk near a sinner without getting dirty.
Sound alot like some of these people in here.
There is no conflict in what I am saying. God ultimately does the good work in the believer and it is not the believer alone doing the good work. Read Ezekiel 36:26-27. Also, Jesus said you can do nothing without Him. You either believe Him or you don't believe Him when He says that. I choose to believe Him when He says those words. For in Justification (i.e. Initial Salvation): Believers are granted repentance by God. Believers are regenerated spiritually by God. Why do you think it is any different with the Sanctification process? Yes, we must yield and or surrender to God. But all good comes from the LORD. So God convicts, God transforms, and God lives and moves within us. That is if we cooperate with Him.
Last edited:
Why would Jesus be telling believers (who are already forgiven) to do something in order to become forgiven? Was that really the point that Jesus was making to these crowds of people and to His disciples? Does practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10) include forgiving others their trespasses?
Your question is not in line with what the Scriptures teach.
Again, this would be a pointless teaching even to an unbeliever. Because if they become a believer then they are going to automatically forgive according to your beliefs. It is also silly to suggest that Jesus is talking to unbelievers because they have no spiritual understanding unless they repent of their sins and believe. Like I said before, it does no unbeliever any good to forgive others if they do not repent of their sins and accept Christ. If an unbeliever forgives and that is all they do, then they will still not be forgiven because they have not accepted Christ yet. So we know Jesus here is speaking to believers and not unbelievers. For the mysteries of the Kingdom are not even given to unbelievers. It would just go in one ear and out the other.
Again, this would be a pointless teaching even to an unbeliever. Because if they become a believer then they are going to automatically forgive according to your beliefs. It is also silly to suggest that Jesus is talking to unbelievers because they have no spiritual understanding unless they repent of their sins and believe. Like I said before, it does no unbeliever any good to forgive others if they do not repent of their sins and accept Christ. If an unbeliever forgives and that is all they do, then they will still not be forgiven because they have not accepted Christ yet. So we know Jesus here is speaking to believers and not unbelievers. For the mysteries of the Kingdom are not even given to unbelievers. It would just go in one ear and out the other.
Last edited:
Besides, no person can honestly read Matthew chapter 6 and conclude that Jesus is talking to unbelievers in Matthew 6:15. It is just absolutely preposterous.
Verse 1-4 - Jesus says don't do your alms (your giving) before men; But give in secret (Why would an unbeliever care about giving to God in secret?).
Verse 5-6 - Jesus says do not pray so as to be seen; But pray in secret (Why would an unbeliever care about praying in secret to God?).
Verse 7-8 - Jesus says do not pray repetitiously (Why would an unbeliever even be praying to God?)
Verse 9-13 - Jesus is talking about the Lord's prayer (Why would an unbeliever care about the Lord's prayer?)
Verse 14-15 - Jesus inserts talking about the importance of forgiveness and being forgiven (Why would an unbeliever care about forgiveness from God?)
Verse 16 - Jesus talks about fasting in a way so as not to let others know you are fasting (Why would an unbeliever care about fasting in such a way let alone fasting at all?).
Verse 1-4 - Jesus says don't do your alms (your giving) before men; But give in secret (Why would an unbeliever care about giving to God in secret?).
Verse 5-6 - Jesus says do not pray so as to be seen; But pray in secret (Why would an unbeliever care about praying in secret to God?).
Verse 7-8 - Jesus says do not pray repetitiously (Why would an unbeliever even be praying to God?)
Verse 9-13 - Jesus is talking about the Lord's prayer (Why would an unbeliever care about the Lord's prayer?)
Verse 14-15 - Jesus inserts talking about the importance of forgiveness and being forgiven (Why would an unbeliever care about forgiveness from God?)
Verse 16 - Jesus talks about fasting in a way so as not to let others know you are fasting (Why would an unbeliever care about fasting in such a way let alone fasting at all?).
Why not? Please answer my question - Does practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10) include forgiving others their trespasses? Or are those who are born of God characterized as unforgiving?
So you have two different camps of believers? Believers who forgive and are forgiven and believers who refuse to forgive and are not forgiven? Do those two camps also include believers who "do not practice sin but practice righteousness" and believers who "practice sin and do not practice righteousness?" Where does John mention those two "separate" camps of those who are born of God in 1 John 3?
So what you are really trying to imply is that if a believer gets angry with someone over a trespass and has a temporary weak moment of un-forgiveness, that believer is back to being lost in his sins all over again until he forgives that person? Saved, refuse to forgive, lost salvation, repent, confess saved again and the wheels on the bus go round and round? Do you believe that the majority of genuine born again Christians will end up in hell due to their continued lack of forgiving others, but of course, this does not include you?
How many unbelievers would genuinely forgive someone from their heart over an unthinkable terrible trespass against them (rape, murder of family member etc..) apart from the love of God in their heart/Holy Spirit? How many genuine believers forgive others from their heart solely in their own strength? Matthew 6:12 says And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
Regardless, continued unforgiveness is the mark of an unbeliever and forgiveness would be the mark of a genuine believer. We should forgive others because God, through Christ, has forgiven us. *Ephesians 4:32 - And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you. I don't see any warnings from Paul here that temporary weak moments of failing to do so will lead to cancelled salvation. That would be performance based works salvation. Is it law or grace? It is inconceivable that someone who has truly experienced God's forgiveness, is a new creation in Christ and has received the love of God in their heart by the Holy Spirit who was given to them would continually stubbornly refuse to forgive others their trespasses. Just doesn't fit.
It's not only unbelievers who listen to things that go in one ear and out the other.
So you have two different camps of believers? Believers who forgive and are forgiven and believers who refuse to forgive and are not forgiven? Do those two camps also include believers who "do not practice sin but practice righteousness" and believers who "practice sin and do not practice righteousness?" Where does John mention those two "separate" camps of those who are born of God in 1 John 3?
So what you are really trying to imply is that if a believer gets angry with someone over a trespass and has a temporary weak moment of un-forgiveness, that believer is back to being lost in his sins all over again until he forgives that person? Saved, refuse to forgive, lost salvation, repent, confess saved again and the wheels on the bus go round and round? Do you believe that the majority of genuine born again Christians will end up in hell due to their continued lack of forgiving others, but of course, this does not include you?
How many unbelievers would genuinely forgive someone from their heart over an unthinkable terrible trespass against them (rape, murder of family member etc..) apart from the love of God in their heart/Holy Spirit? How many genuine believers forgive others from their heart solely in their own strength? Matthew 6:12 says And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
Regardless, continued unforgiveness is the mark of an unbeliever and forgiveness would be the mark of a genuine believer. We should forgive others because God, through Christ, has forgiven us. *Ephesians 4:32 - And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you. I don't see any warnings from Paul here that temporary weak moments of failing to do so will lead to cancelled salvation. That would be performance based works salvation. Is it law or grace? It is inconceivable that someone who has truly experienced God's forgiveness, is a new creation in Christ and has received the love of God in their heart by the Holy Spirit who was given to them would continually stubbornly refuse to forgive others their trespasses. Just doesn't fit.
It's not only unbelievers who listen to things that go in one ear and out the other.
You must realize "Forgiven" isn't the end-game. God wants us be forgiven, then go on to the finish the Will of God, which is to show Himself Glorious. This showing was ordained to be done in you, His saint. It is a gift and a responsibility. A responsibility driven from love not obligation. He wants you to understand the depth of The power and love you have in you! He is not looking at you, He is asking the Christ in you now to show both you, the vessel of this power, as you trust and obey Him, as you see more clearly the one called Christ Jesus' potential abilities demonstrated in you, to finally being seen by the World, until you enter His presence and receive His glory unto yourself. To not act in obedience toward Him is to second guess your potential found in Him. To short- sheet your blessings found in the days to come in heaven.
Roman Catholics (many of which are unbelievers) care about it and repeatedly cite it (chant it during Mass) on a regular basis, but regardless, if it's so important for you to believe that Jesus is warning believers to make sure they completely forgive everyone (no room for weak moments) or else they will lose their salvation, and this will happen to many Christians, but of course not to you, then believe it. I forgive others because of the love of God that has been poured out in my heart by the Holy Spirit who was given to me and not because I'm a special person who is able to conjure up the strength to forgive in my flesh. To God be the glory!
I'm sorry why, again, would one need to live in bondage to any insecurity? If you agree with the posts thoughts that is great, yet I don't see how anything included in my post or Jasons is bondage or insecurity. Actually it is just the opposite. It is in so being free we act from that common ground you and I both have -love not obligation. But, the fear, bondage, and insecurity comes out of left field for me...
You know, if everyone simply put Jason on ignore, he would wither away like a weed in the hot sun. His type feeds on attention and conflict. He would be bored silly talking only with like-minded legalists.
Just think about all the threads he couldn't derail! He wouldn't know what to do with himself, since he spends so much time here.
I'm taking my own advice right now. Bye Jason. Try to keep your misery to yourself in the future, instead of trying to spread it around.
Just think about all the threads he couldn't derail! He wouldn't know what to do with himself, since he spends so much time here.
I'm taking my own advice right now. Bye Jason. Try to keep your misery to yourself in the future, instead of trying to spread it around.
We should never get cocky about ourselves. It's all about Christ and not us (Romans 3:24; Ephesians 2:8,9). I have gladly accepted the grace message and as my signature says - Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Praise the Lord! 
We should never get cocky about ourselves. It's all about Christ and not us (Romans 3:24; Ephesians 2:8,9). I have gladly accepted the grace message and as my signature says - Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Praise the Lord!