Hebrew Roots Movement

[atwhatcost]

Isn't the only way a Messianic Jew still into the rituals able to do it right is to live near Jerusalem, and find someone still up to roasting goats and living in tents for a while? That may sound like I was trying to be funny, but the thing that always puzzles me with Jewish people is how do they do all those sacrifices? And, if they don't, how Jewish are they really?

That is a good rhetorical question.

That wasn't a rhetorical question. I was honestly asking you what benefit was there in finding Jews who still believed in tradition? You're American, so I'm guessing if you ever found such a Jew there would be serious problems with that person's traditions, unless he/she were rich enough to go to Jerusalem once a year to do the yearly sin sacrifice, and then go back to Jerusalem any time they wanted to do a wave offering, a burnt offering, a thanksgiving offering, etc. There are no Jews on earth who keep the real traditions, because God made sure there was no more way to keep those traditions. He destroyed the Temple, never to be raised again. Skip no more Holy of Holies. No more temple all together, and no other spot did it for him, (other than Jesus coming.) So, no, that really wasn't rhetorical either.

The temple and all that took place within the Levitical law have been fulfilled in Christ. That doesn't mean they are now inert, it means that (as Paul said) the law is spiritual, and in so doing, I believe that the only thing left (now through the tribe of Judah) is the Spiritual discernment of that fulfillment. That was the fulfillment of Jesus, and like Paul said in the correct Spiritual context; "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Romans 12:1

What I'm reading in this -- something is and isn't there anymore. Something is both living and spiritual. Somehow we're supposed to know the difference between spiritual and living. Well, the best I can make out with the difference is I'm living. I've been living since I was conceived, but my spiritual was dead until God regenerated me, giving me a living spirit -- his spirit. What's that look like? No idea, since I am corporeal, so the best I can do is take God at his word. Since I'm his that leans me to doing his work. But you're asking me to discern spiritual law from actual law? How? Based on what? And huh? What is spiritual law? I only know God's laws, America's laws, my parents' laws from back when we were kids, and household law between me and hubby. (Hey, we only have one law, so it was quick to get. lol) I have absolutely no idea what you believe in this.

Now there are also instuctions for God's children (believing Gentiles included) to fulfill that which were never totally exclusive instructions for only the Levities. That was fulfilled in Christ. What we do with those instructions, as believers, (beyond those only exclusive to the Levitical priesthood, such as Exodus 20thru 23) in a spiritual manner is what makes us trust in the word of God, not by self performance, but by the motivation of the Spirit within us.

First, I'm kind of getting annoyed by you placing gentiles apart from Jews, honestly. I mean, no problem having Jews and Gentiles in the world as separate groups. Why not? Not like we don't divide over every little thing anyway. But, when you divide in the Body -- the Church -- it's also kind of insulting. That thingy about there are no more gentiles, Jews, freed or slave verse. (Gal. 3:28) I take that seriously. I'm not a gentile nor a Jew. I'm neither free nor a slave, I'm neither male nor female. We are ONE in Christ. Stop yanking the one apart, as if one is a little more oner than the other. A little more special. Our specialness doesn't come from whatever group we were a part of. It comes from Christ.

Second, I honestly don't understand how there is more to it than the Levitess part. I mean I do understand, since the law was given to all, but I don't understand why you think the Levites are still a special case. Jesus came. We are his royal priesthood, but it's not like we're still doing Jewish temple duty anymore. Jesus is the God who promised and delivered a way for his people to come directly to him. No more need to shave off ALL hair, to bath over and over again, to slaughter two animals, to bring the right amount of flour with or without oil and/or incense, and no more tons and tons of praying for fear of out lives if we harbored some deep-down sin that God would spot anyway and have us killed over. Really cool for me, since I'm a woman and none of that works for me anyway. Even if I did it all right, I didn't do any of it right because I'm a woman. But, yo! Jesus did it perfectly right and has no worries if I am Jew, Gentile, free, slave, male or female. I am his and I'm free to talk to him, because of what he did -- which was get it all right.

So, no. You said something here too, but I didn't get it.

[/QUOTE]The Spirit, and the Word always work together and if one leaves out the word of God, (including the spiritual relevance of Torah, together with all New Testament writings) they have no confirmation as to what spirit is actually their motivation.

"Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you." Proverbs 1:20-23 (speaking of wisdom)[/QUOTE]
Yeah? Okay? Since I have no idea what you're saying, the scripture didn't really clarify. I mean, sure, I can look it up and check out context, but I'm sure Solomon had no idea of God's future plans to see how this relates to keeping the OT and NT. When he wrote that Jesus hadn't yet come. If God ever told Solomon God would come down and be the perfect sacrifice, it must have been a secret, so he never wrote that down. I suspect that never happened, but Solomon trusted God at his word. Any which way. I didn't see this relating to my questions.

I do that a lot, ya know. I read what you say, but rarely get fully what you mean. I admire your conviction, but I've never really seen what your conviction is.

Friend to friend, why not tell in plain language?

 

[atwhatcost]

As JGIG points out, he promotes the same stuff as HRM.

The call-out was accurate.

Detroit Lions is accurate. It still means nothing to me. So if I keep shouting Detroit Lions everyone is supposed to know what I mean suddenly? Sorry. Not working for me.

 

[atwhatcost]

I repeat "Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism."

This is really a Constantine theology that is now (today right here) showing up as people naming others as "Judaizers" just because we esteem the law as relevant for today. It didn't begin with the Jews.

I also had to look up supersessionism yesterday. Did't really care, so forgot what it was other than another vague label to put each other under.

I get my belief from Galatians 3:28. No idea what Constantine taught, because I've heard he got some stuff wrong too.

There is no relationship with or against Jews, with or against Gentiles. There are believers and then there are nonbelievers. Trying to understand nonbelievers is kind of like trying to understand why anyone would like playing golf. It's possible, if I study hard enough, I might understand them, but what a waste of my life. lol

 

[damombomb]

I agree , can the op give their testimony of what the Lord has done for them. The true saving power of God? How did Jesus change your life, how did he draw you?There is only one way to the Father.

 

[atwhatcost]

According to the OP, I still have no clue as to how I fit into what I am labeled as fitting into. The following show me one thing about myself. "I am more adamant not to change what I believe just because I'm labeled and and accused falsely." My accusers seem more HRM minded even than the first Roman Catholic church. "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:" Matthew 12:25



Scripture clearly explains, in both the Old and New Testaments that Pagans hated celebrations that were observed contrary to their own false religion. The Old Testament shadow confirmed that substance and light were present and available to us. The shadow should cause people to turn and look for the substance and the Light that makes substance possible to identify. (Hebrew 11:1)





I have heard from others that there are only 9 commandments that need to be observed in the New Testament church. Sabbath is out, so entering into His rest (Hebrews 4:10) is also out. But then we are forced back into our own works (under the law) that is contrary to the abolition of Sabbath.
Separation, eh?
So my purpose is to discredit the New Testament? I quote the reality of the NT I would hope, as much as I do the reality of the Old, but I refuse to discredit the Old also. It is all God's Word, and Jesus is the Creator of it all, including the Old Covenant. If giving respect for the Old Testament is degradation of the New, then I reject that religion!

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism.

This propagates separation between the Jews and the Gentiles. I believe the opposite. Togetherness in Christ is Biblical, and it also is what Paul revealed to us.

This doesn't sound like Judaism, is sounds like what my Christan accusers are trying to convince me of.


plateauing = to reach a state or level of little or no growth or decline, especially to stop increasing or progressing; remain at a stable level of achievement; level off:
My belief is to not stalemate and to continue to increase in faith. Believing in Christ is "going forward." Yet we hear the political phrase "going forward" when in fact we are going in the opposite direction. Are my accusers propagating the same thing? Scripture defines leveling off, (stop increasing) as "falling away" because of a content apathy and or endorsing replacement theology. Hebrews 6:1-6
As the knowledge of the law declines, the more that lawlessness increases, but Paul wrote that "the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;" (1 Timothy 1:8)




I have truly been edified by all that I have quoted here. It has been confirmed to me to continue as I have for the last year as a member of cc. "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth..." Ephesians 6:14a

"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6

How do you know if you're being accused falsely if you have no idea what HRM believes? What if it really is the same as what you believe?

Honestly, I simply know what I believe. Then I did a little studying of Calvinism and Lutheranism and found out it's close to what the beliefs are, (the basics, anyway. Lutherans have sometimes strayed away from God entirely), but not what Calvin nor Luther totally believed? You have to know the differences and similarities before you can say if it is or isn't what you believe.

 

[atwhatcost]

For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity with the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicaea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.

In 325 A.D. it was declared official by Constantine at the Council of Nicene (Roman decree), whereby worshipping on the Sabbath or in a synagogue was prohibited, as well as celebrating the feasts. In order to become a Christian under Constantine's reign, a new Jewish believer had to renounce all customs, rights, legalisms, unleavened breads and feasts ...new moons...synagogues, shabbats... everything Jewish, every right, law and custom. To make an even more defined division of the two sects, Constantine at this time declared that Christians would worship only on the first day of the week, now called Sunday, the day of the sun god. He further changed the observance of Passover to the spring pagan holiday of Ishtar, now known as Easter, as well as changing the birth of Yeshua from the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles (Succoth) to the pagan winter solstice, the birthday of Nimrod on December 25, now known as Christmas. Nowhere in Scripture are we told to celebrate the birth of Yeshua, but we are commanded in Leviticus 23 to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Thus, we began to lose our Jewish roots as pagan idolatry entered into the worship of the God of Israel.

The following creed is from a church at Constantinople at the same period, and condemns practices of the Nazarenes: Quote..........
“I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads & sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and Synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I renounce everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with the Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils." [end quote]

Now I certainly do not ascribe to works of the law for righteousness sake, and neither do I ascribe to faith without works. If The Roman Catholic church in Constantinople had the same outlook as those that label me as a “Hebrew Roots Movement” person, what is the difference between them and Constantine of the first Roman Catholic sect?

This is the thread Robop started
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41911-catholic-heresy-record.html

This is the thread I started
http://christianchat.com/conspiracy...olic-traditions-began-during-1st-century.html

So I see accusations toward me, based on false principles, that are no different than the Council of Nicene/ Nicaea under Constantine. What's up if we cannot recognize the adversaries tactics? Are those people I quoted any different than the Roman Catholics during the time of Constantine?



Do as Paul did. Those without the law, or under it, are to be reached for Christ's sake and for His glory. Speaking against those like myself who are supposedly "under the law" has no sway in converting me to the truth if that were the case, which it isn't. "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;" (1 Corinthians 9:20)

Would you condemn those who are truly under the law in the same way? The end result is the same for what the HRM does, and what you are accusing them of. Is there a log in the eye somewhere?

Separation continues right here in cc with the Constantine pattern. This is one of our adversary's tactics. When will we wake up and be more than conquerors through Christ Jesus, and begin quoting the law as Jesus did to Satan while He was templed in the wideness? (Deuteronomy) God's word is quick and powerful. It has immense strength against our adversary! Use it! Stop demanding its annihilation with false accusations while saying it's been made void! Is it the law that's carnal or the mindset that is against it? Are my accusers carnally minded proving themselves as such “because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.?” (Romans 8:7)

That's nice. And 200 years ago many Americans thought slavery was a good thing. That has nothing to do with us today other than part of our sordid history.

 

[atwhatcost]

Where did I say that? Assumptions again?

Pfft, don't worry about Sparkman. His entire theology is based on some individualized Sabbath doctrine. Nothing to do with God all together.

 

[crossnote]

I also had to look up supersessionism yesterday. Did't really care, so forgot what it was other than another vague label to put each other under.

I get my belief from Galatians 3:28. No idea what Constantine taught, because I've heard he got some stuff wrong too.

There is no relationship with or against Jews, with or against Gentiles. There are believers and then there are nonbelievers. Trying to understand nonbelievers is kind of like trying to understand why anyone would like playing golf. It's possible, if I study hard enough, I might understand them, but what a waste of my life. lol

You were a non believer at one time, no?

 

[atwhatcost]

That NT Christianity is tainted by the assimilation of paganism and the false doctrine of ancient heretic is not true.

That is classic HRM.

Nah, it's true. That you keep denying it simply tells me I can't trust you.

You're version is classic post-modern American psycho-babble, since you like labels.

 

[atwhatcost]

I agree , can the op give their testimony of what the Lord has done for them. The true saving power of God? How did Jesus change your life, how did he draw you?There is only one way to the Father.

I didn't ask him for his testimony. I can give you my testimony, but it doesn't necessarily tell you what I believe now.

 

[Elin]

Detroit Lions is accurate. It still means nothing to me. So if I keep shouting Detroit Lions everyone is supposed to know what I mean suddenly? Sorry. Not working for me.

Have you received a promise that everything will be presented in a way that works for you without you doing some homework to become informed in that of which you are uninformed?

 

[Elin]

Pfft, don't worry about Sparkman. His entire theology is based on some individualized Sabbath doctrine. Nothing to do with God all together.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Elin]

Trying to understand nonbelievers is kind of like trying to understand why anyone would like playing golf. It's possible, if I study hard enough, I might understand them, but what a waste of my life. lol

You were a non believer at one time, no?

Oops! . . . . .

 

[just-me]

The history regarding this is irrelevant, though, because Colossians 2:16-17 is clear about Sabbath and annual festivals being shadows. They are grouped with "food and drink" offerings which are no longer applicable. In addition, the same language of shadows of things to come is used in regards to animal sacrifices.

So, the history is irrelevant as Scripture is very clear on this issue. One must import a false context into Colossians 2 to make the assertions that Sabbath and festival keepers do.

Colossians 2:8-16
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

This scripture isn't talking about fellow believers who are ridiculed by other believers. It's talking about the pagan beliefs of the world that are in opposition to the truth.
Repeating verse 8 "after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." The law was never associated with the worldly values. One more thing. Circumcision is not of the flesh according to the law in Deuteronomy. It is the same circumcision of the heart as the NT. The world is carnal, why do you accuse me of practicing those things as being wrong when they are not of this world, but of God. I do NOT physically take part in Biblical feasts, and I don't go to assemble on Saturday. I do recognize them spiritually, and study them as to the truth.

If Paul said the law is holy, spiritual, good and just in Romans 7:12-14, would our apostle say that this same law (that is holy, spiritual, good and just) has been abolished in Ephesians 2:15?

Romans 7:12-14
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Ephesians 2:15

Did Jesus (in your opinion) actually make void what is spiritual from His own Father by His death, or did He actually kill the carnal and the flesh? Many say it was the law that has been abolished rather than carnality. Carnality isn't made void by making the law void. Making void the law increases the sins of the flesh, and also makes people ignorant to its spiritual applications.

 

[Elin]

That NT Christianity is tainted by the assimilation of paganism and the false doctrine of ancient heretics is not true.

That is classic HRM.

Nah, it's true. That you keep denying it simply tells me I can't trust you.

You're version is classic post-modern American psycho-babble, since you like labels.

Oops! . . . . .

 

[just-me]

How do you know if you're being accused falsely if you have no idea what HRM believes? What if it really is the same as what you believe?

Honestly, I simply know what I believe. Then I did a little studying of Calvinism and Lutheranism and found out it's close to what the beliefs are, (the basics, anyway. Lutherans have sometimes strayed away from God entirely), but not what Calvin nor Luther totally believed? You have to know the differences and similarities before you can say if it is or isn't what you believe.

Answer to your first question. A person cannot belong to something that doesn't exist in their life. I never heard of the HRM until I was labeled as their associate in CC. I would never want to be a member from what I have heard, so I am accused of having a belief that I don't necessarily agree with, as I have come to understand. My accusers seem to be better acquainted with it than I am.

I hear ya, and Calvin hated Luther's doctrine. LOL Luther didn't desire a denomination to be named after him either.

 

[KJV1611]

I have been accused more times than I have fingers and toes of being a part of the Hebrew Roots Movement. Would some one please explain to me who they are and what they do? All I know is that they are hated by many on cc - what is going on?
I want substantial proof - I don't care about assumptions that make no sense to me.

In a nutshell the Hebrew Roots movement practices every thing God told the children NOT to learn from the Egyptians. They worship Osiris and Isis and believe they are Horus. They believe Osiris (Yahweh) is the male part of God and Isis (Shekina) is the female part of God. They believe that when Yahweh and Shekina come together in sexual union, Horus or the Jew is the offspring.

They believe in the white fire and black fire. Black fire being the written words of the Torah and white fire being the blank spaces between the words. They teach that the white fire is where the true meaning of the Torah is found.

The believe in the big bang theory, no the big bang is not scientific, it's Jewish Kabbalah. Kabbalah teaches that the universe began with the explosion of Adam Kadmon (God). Adam was spread out all over the universe... hence all creation is equal and all have a "God Particle" in them... there is a divine spark in all of us.

That's the basics! The Hebrew Roots movement basically Christianizes Kaballah by changing the names in order to deceive Christians into following the Antichrist which after all is who Adam Kadmon is.

I've done a lot of research on Hebrew Roots and Jewish Kaballah.... this is what I've come to learn, hope this helps.

 

[just-me]

I agree , can the op give their testimony of what the Lord has done for them. The true saving power of God? How did Jesus change your life, how did he draw you?There is only one way to the Father.

You asked, and here it is.

In the coarse of my life, I sometimes remember, re-evaluating past experiences. Usually, those experiences brought to my mind are when I'm meditating on the enormous grace that our Father in heaven has, grounded in His love for all mankind. I sometimes find myself relating to the depth of King David's thoughts in the Psalms, rehearsing his words 'What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou would care for him?' (Psalms 8:4)
At the age of twelve, I went through the motions of becoming saved in the church our family belonged to, and comprehending that if I did that, everything would be perfect in my life. That's what the preaching was all about, but it wasn't true as I comprehended it at that time in my life. In fact my environment became worse as my family became more fractured than it had ever been before. It only took me about three weeks, and I had determined that salvation was a total lie, because what I was taught about salvation evaporated giving way to dysfunction and chaos almost over night.
Four years later, my parents were separated, and my siblings were no longer at home. Between the age of sixteen through nineteen, I finished high school, and worked as a hired man on four different farms during the summer months, and then finally joined the United States Army on August 17[SUP]th[/SUP],1967.
During this three year stretch I spent eighteen months in Germany, and finished my tour of duty in Vietnam in 1969, and 1970.
I determined to write these previous things out of necessity, and reveal the reason for my unbelief through my childhood, and military service. But I write this for no other purpose than to glorify our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, by putting the reality of my life together with the reality of our Lord's salvation. It's amazing to me that Jesus calls us through given experiences even when we don't recognize it at the time, and then later on realize that the experience was enveloped in His call. So I will write about one experience of many that caused me to pursue salvation later in life.
I was assigned to an artillery unit stationed close to the DMZ in Vietnam as second echelon maintenance. My duty was specialized in a certain field of expertise that traveled with the unit assuring that the howitzers were able to function properly in any given scenario, henceforth making me attached to the battery at all times. By that time I had acquired a 2 X 3 inch picture of Jesus (imprinted on metal) and a rosary, with a corroded cross, that I had found somewhere, and how, or who I got them from I cannot remember. I think I found the rosary on the ground, and the picture probably came from my mother in the mail or something. It's hard to think about those things back then. I have made it a habit of forgetting.
We were given a mission to destroy a North Vietnamese compound, so our battery needed to travel north into what was called “the bush” in order to be in range so our guns could hit the target. We were told that our mission shouldn't take any more than just a few days, but then we received word that the supply choppers couldn't make it to our position due to being cut off from our base by the enemy. It was one of the few times that I got really hungry, and thirsty after several days with no supplies.
We were told to dig in, and as soon as the threat of ambush was gone, we could return to base. I found a place that looked easy to dig being washed out by rain and mostly sandy, and dug out a hole just big enough to put my sleeping bag in, PSP over the top with a few sandbags, and then I was situated, so I thought. Above my head I propped up the picture of Jesus, and hung the rosary around it. There was a saying during WW2 saying “there are no atheists in fox holes” and I would say they were “right on” with that one. I suppose it was my upbringing that compelled me to prop Jesus above my head even though it was a “man made” image.
Gun #1 had dug a huge bunker that would accommodate ten or twelve guys scrunched up in a circle with our backs against the wall. Being liked by all, I was invited in to joke around and laugh with some “mary-jane” being passed around. We would laugh and joke as everybody told stories about humorous stuff that happened in our younger days, and then talk about what we were going to do after our extended time in service was over, and when we would be going back “to the world,” a cliche` for going home. We would never talk about the immediate, for that bought unwanted emotions that were not conducive to being a real man. I think back now and determine that we were all still children. How sadistically humorous.
I managed to crawl back to by bunker and lay down on my sleeping bag with my head below Jesus and the rosary. I slept until the incoming perimeter rounds began landing around our position, squealing with insanity before they hit. Another battery in our unit had received a fire mission for our protection. The concussion of the rounds caused my bunker to completely cave in on me, all except for the place were the picture of Jesus and the rosary were placed above my head. Like aways, I had placed my weapon (M16) under the sleeping bag, but I had to even dig for that to find it. I would have suffocated if that one corner would have collapsed as did everything else. Jesus was calling me again, but I didn't hear Him like all the other times.
By late 1972, I was making it real good according to world standards. I had a job, a good wife, and our first child had been born. There was only one thing that was really drawing my attention, and that was a nagging question of “what has happened to the United States of America concerning its seemingly lost morality?” I began reading the Bible in Revelation with some sincerity, hoping I could find an answer. My wife thought that I was Christian despite me having the demeanor of a drunken killer. One day we heard an advertisement on the radio about a movie that was to be shown, hosted by an Evangelical Lutheran Church that described Christ's second coming, Him separating the “sheep from the goats.” “And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:” (Matthew 25:32) I didn't know it at the time, but my wife was never informed by the Lutheran church that Christ was coming back to gather His own. After the show she reeled around and ran out the door into the night rain. I ran after her and unlocked the car letting us both in out of the rain. We sat there, and I asked in my confusion what was wrong. She said; “I can't stand the thought of us being separated.” She thought that because I was searching scripture for an answer to my question, that I as a Christians and she wasn't. In a flash, Jesus said to me “I have called you many times and you haven't answered me. Your road is at a “dead end” and this is my last call.” I thought about the rosary and picture that I carried with me in Vietnam, and realized the numerous times Christ Jesus tried to get my attention. In a rain storm, at night, both my wife and I committed our lives and our marriage to Christ Jesus. After forty four years, I am still married to God's gift who I call “dear” and have grown in wisdom and knowledge of our wonderful and enormously great Savior who saves us from a certain death. His name is Emanuel. “God is with us!”

My favorite scripture found in Romans 5:1-5. (KJV)


“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.”

 

[atwhatcost]

You were a non believer at one time, no?

Not that easy. I was Catholic. lol

 

[damombomb]

You asked, and here it is.

In the coarse of my life, I sometimes remember, re-evaluating past experiences. Usually, those experiences brought to my mind are when I'm meditating on the enormous grace that our Father in heaven has, grounded in His love for all mankind. I sometimes find myself relating to the depth of King David's thoughts in the Psalms, rehearsing his words 'What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou would care for him?' (Psalms 8:4)
At the age of twelve, I went through the motions of becoming saved in the church our family belonged to, and comprehending that if I did that, everything would be perfect in my life. That's what the preaching was all about, but it wasn't true as I comprehended it at that time in my life. In fact my environment became worse as my family became more fractured than it had ever been before. It only took me about three weeks, and I had determined that salvation was a total lie, because what I was taught about salvation evaporated giving way to dysfunction and chaos almost over night.
Four years later, my parents were separated, and my siblings were no longer at home. Between the age of sixteen through nineteen, I finished high school, and worked as a hired man on four different farms during the summer months, and then finally joined the United States Army on August 17[SUP]th[/SUP],1967.
During this three year stretch I spent eighteen months in Germany, and finished my tour of duty in Vietnam in 1969, and 1970.
I determined to write these previous things out of necessity, and reveal the reason for my unbelief through my childhood, and military service. But I write this for no other purpose than to glorify our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, by putting the reality of my life together with the reality of our Lord's salvation. It's amazing to me that Jesus calls us through given experiences even when we don't recognize it at the time, and then later on realize that the experience was enveloped in His call. So I will write about one experience of many that caused me to pursue salvation later in life.
I was assigned to an artillery unit stationed close to the DMZ in Vietnam as second echelon maintenance. My duty was specialized in a certain field of expertise that traveled with the unit assuring that the howitzers were able to function properly in any given scenario, henceforth making me attached to the battery at all times. By that time I had acquired a 2 X 3 inch picture of Jesus (imprinted on metal) and a rosary, with a corroded cross, that I had found somewhere, and how, or who I got them from I cannot remember. I think I found the rosary on the ground, and the picture probably came from my mother in the mail or something. It's hard to think about those things back then. I have made it a habit of forgetting.
We were given a mission to destroy a North Vietnamese compound, so our battery needed to travel north into what was called “the bush” in order to be in range so our guns could hit the target. We were told that our mission shouldn't take any more than just a few days, but then we received word that the supply choppers couldn't make it to our position due to being cut off from our base by the enemy. It was one of the few times that I got really hungry, and thirsty after several days with no supplies.
We were told to dig in, and as soon as the threat of ambush was gone, we could return to base. I found a place that looked easy to dig being washed out by rain and mostly sandy, and dug out a hole just big enough to put my sleeping bag in, PSP over the top with a few sandbags, and then I was situated, so I thought. Above my head I propped up the picture of Jesus, and hung the rosary around it. There was a saying during WW2 saying “there are no atheists in fox holes” and I would say they were “right on” with that one. I suppose it was my upbringing that compelled me to prop Jesus above my head even though it was a “man made” image.
Gun #1 had dug a huge bunker that would accommodate ten or twelve guys scrunched up in a circle with our backs against the wall. Being liked by all, I was invited in to joke around and laugh with some “mary-jane” being passed around. We would laugh and joke as everybody told stories about humorous stuff that happened in our younger days, and then talk about what we were going to do after our extended time in service was over, and when we would be going back “to the world,” a cliche` for going home. We would never talk about the immediate, for that bought unwanted emotions that were not conducive to being a real man. I think back now and determine that we were all still children. How sadistically humorous.
I managed to crawl back to by bunker and lay down on my sleeping bag with my head below Jesus and the rosary. I slept until the incoming perimeter rounds began landing around our position, squealing with insanity before they hit. Another battery in our unit had received a fire mission for our protection. The concussion of the rounds caused my bunker to completely cave in on me, all except for the place were the picture of Jesus and the rosary were placed above my head. Like aways, I had placed my weapon (M16) under the sleeping bag, but I had to even dig for that to find it. I would have suffocated if that one corner would have collapsed as did everything else. Jesus was calling me again, but I didn't hear Him like all the other times.
By late 1972, I was making it real good according to world standards. I had a job, a good wife, and our first child had been born. There was only one thing that was really drawing my attention, and that was a nagging question of “what has happened to the United States of America concerning its seemingly lost morality?” I began reading the Bible in Revelation with some sincerity, hoping I could find an answer. My wife thought that I was Christian despite me having the demeanor of a drunken killer. One day we heard an advertisement on the radio about a movie that was to be shown, hosted by an Evangelical Lutheran Church that described Christ's second coming, Him separating the “sheep from the goats.” “And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:” (Matthew 25:32) I didn't know it at the time, but my wife was never informed by the Lutheran church that Christ was coming back to gather His own. After the show she reeled around and ran out the door into the night rain. I ran after her and unlocked the car letting us both in out of the rain. We sat there, and I asked in my confusion what was wrong. She said; “I can't stand the thought of us being separated.” She thought that because I was searching scripture for an answer to my question, that I as a Christians and she wasn't. In a flash, Jesus said to me “I have called you many times and you haven't answered me. Your road is at a “dead end” and this is my last call.” I thought about the rosary and picture that I carried with me in Vietnam, and realized the numerous times Christ Jesus tried to get my attention. In a rain storm, at night, both my wife and I committed our lives and our marriage to Christ Jesus. After forty four years, I am still married to God's gift who I call “dear” and have grown in wisdom and knowledge of our wonderful and enormously great Savior who saves us from a certain death. His name is Emanuel. “God is with us!”

My favorite scripture found in Romans 5:1-5. (KJV)


“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.”

Amen!!!! Thank you for serving!!
The Lord sets us free from our past and gives us hope and joy and peace in him. He fills us with his spirit and love.
Gives us a new heart....amen.