Sunday Keepers Dare to explain this

[flob]

Historical evidence seems to indicate that until the fourth century, most believers attended Synagogue on Sabbath; and met house to house on the first day of the week, (Sunday

thank you for your correction

 

[sparkman]

Colossians 2:16-17 says not to allow others to judge us over those issues regarding days. It also calls the Sabbaths, annual festivals, and new moons "shadows".

Similar language is used in regards to animal sacrifices in Hebrews 10:1-2.

Those who believe they should keep the Sabbath and holy days should keep them without trying to discredit individuals who worship on other days. These issues do not relate to salvation. Sabbathkeeping is not a requirement, condition, or necessary fruit of salvation. If someone tries to discredit Christians for observing Sunday, claiming that they are following a counterfeit version of Christianity, are unsaved, or are spiritually inferior, the Sabbathkeeping community should speak out against those individuals as being divisive to the body of Christ.

These individuals are performing the work of Satan, regardless if they know it or not. Galatians 1:7-9 relates “another gospel” to Judaizers, who were trying to force elements of the Old Covenant amongst Gentiles. It is ironic that individuals who claim to be defending the true faith use this Scripture, insinuating that it applies to Sunday observers, when it really applies to the Judaizers who were troubling the Galatian church by attempting to force the Old Covenant observances on them.

As well, there may be some individuals who claim that all Sabbathkeepers are depending on the Law for their salvation, and that they must observe Sunday. Those people are in error too, and should be spoken against. Romans 14 gives liberality in this regard to individuals who have such sensitivities. These individuals are rare, though..the judgments are usually coming from some within the Sabbathkeeping crowd who are divisive.

I was a Sabbathkeeper while attending Worldwide Church of God, so I am aware of the underlying doctrinal issues that are involved with the Sabbath discussion.

For a clearer understanding regarding these issues, I would suggest reading the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. He covers the differences between the Old and New Covenant, and moral law versus ceremonial law, very well.

Isaiah 66:22-24King James Version (KJV)

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[Yet]

'Yet, we are sick nigh unto death of you constantly repeating scripture...shut up!!' I won't shut up, I won't, I won't, I won't!!
' And they met daily from house to house.' No Sunday or saturday(actually means satans day...I digress), to it! They hung out every chance they got as believers. Christ dwelt in His temple not made with hands. Thats the folks, folks! Somebody pu-lease grow a clue! The sabbath was a picture of Jesus, the rest we enter into upon salvation, no longer us working to attain His gift! What part of that can't folks dicipher. A child can grasp it before grown adults can.
Let the Jews keep the OT sabbath and perish without Meshiach, let the 'church' play Sunday dress up and miss totally out on what this thing is all about!
In the first century gathering, sleepy head pew sitting cannot be validated. I resist going on!

 

[Saladin]

Hallelujah. All of mankind will obey the ten commandments in the kingdom of God, and we will experience an era of happiness that the world has never seen. You can be sure that resting on the Holy sabbath will be considered a privelidge at that time. Not a burden.

 

[JimmieD]

Hallelujah. All of mankind will obey the ten commandments in the kingdom of God, and we will experience an era of happiness that the world has never seen. You can be sure that resting on the Holy sabbath will be considered a privelidge at that time. Not a burden.

Which set of ten commandments? The ones in Ex 20, Deut 5, or Ex 34?

 

[ELECT]

why did God write the ten commandments with His own finger ?

 

[phil112]

why did God write the ten commandments with His own finger ?

Because ink pens hadn't been invented.
You really reach to try to justify your false doctrine, don't you.

 

[ELECT]

Because ink pens hadn't been invented.
You really reach to try to justify your false doctrine, don't you.

lets see the word of God last forever written by Holy men with ink yet God chose to write the ten commandments on stone twice with his own finger interesting

 

[ELECT]

Because ink pens hadn't been invented.
You really reach to try to justify your false doctrine, don't you.

What is sin ?

 

[sparkman]

lets see the word of God last forever written by Holy men with ink yet God chose to write the ten commandments on stone twice with his own finger interesting

Actually the reason He wrote them in stone is because Israel had a hard heart. New Covenant believers have "hearts of flesh". The stone that the Ten Commandments was written upon was symbolic of the hardness of their hearts. He knew they would not obey them.

We know that Sabbaths and Holy Days are ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Law and are no longer required. In Colossians 2:16-17 they are grouped with food and drink offerings. In addition, the language of "shadows of things to come" is applied to animal sacrifices, which are in the same group of irrelevant things under the New Covenant. See the reasoning below.

I was a Sabbath/festival/clean unclean meat observer for over a decade under a cult which taught that everyone else outside of their group was saved. Such teaching is false and is disprovable. Those who teach it are deceived themselves.

They often claim that Galatians 1:6-7 applies to a "false gospel" taught by a "counterfeit Christianity". If these "theological giants" would read the book of Galatians, they would see that the false gospel being taught was the same as their gospel...that you have to keep ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant as a New Covenant believer.

An additional point I'd like to make with regards to Colossians 2:16-17..this point involves considering three different Scriptures (not of necessity but for support):

Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 9:10-12 [SUP]10 [/SUP]but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,[SUP][a][/SUP] then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) [SUP]12 [/SUP]he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Galatians 3:16-25 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Here is the reasoning:

1. Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together.

2. Food and drink offerings were imposed until the time of Reformation..which was when Christ came and died for our sins
per Hebrews 9:10-12.

3. Galatians 3:16-25 provides further support that the Old Covenant was only in effect until Christ came and died for our
sins. It is no longer in effect.

4. Since Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together, they are under the
same level of applicability to the New Covenant believer.

5. Additionally, Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same language of "shadows of things to come" in reference to animal sacrifices that
is applied to the Sabbath and Holy Days, placing them in this same category of inapplicable things.

As indicated on other posts, an additional point is that Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same reference of "shadow of things to come" in reference to the animal sacrifices as Colossians 2:16-17 uses in regards to the Sabbath, Holy Days, food and drink offerings.

Hebrews 10:1-2 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

The reasoning that the Sabbath and Holy Days do not apply to New Covenant Christians is inescapable. If someone wants to observe them, fine, but don't accuse other non-observant individuals of being false Christians or being in sin.

 

[sparkman]

What is sin ?

Sin is any act that is contrary to the holiness of God.

Defining sin solely as breaking the Ten Commandments is problematic. One, as I have shown from Colossians 2:16-17, Sabbaths and Holy Day observance is not required for a New Covenant believer. Two, there are things not listed within the Ten Commandments which are sin.

Walking past someone who is suffering when you have the means to alleviate their suffering would be a sin for a New Covenant believer, but it's not listed under the Ten Commandments anywhere. Another thing is drunkenness. I don't even think drunkenness is mentioned under the Old Covenant as a sin, but it's definitely a sin and listed so in the New Testament.

The Old Covenant was preparatory and necessary for ancient Israel, but it was not complete and is not a good measurement of behavior for the New Covenant believer. The apostolic writings and the leading of the Holy Spirit are a fuller revelation.

The focus for a New Covenant believer is being led by the Holy Spirit through reading Scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

By the way, the name ELECT seems to indicate that you have a spiritual superiority complex..this reminds me of myself under the Sabbath/festival/clean unclean meat law cult I belonged to. They had a similar attitude of superiority. 30 years down the road I realize what a fool I was..claiming to know something but knowing nothing of value.

Is your gospel message focused upon salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, or is it focused on keeping ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Old Covenant? What was the focus of the gospel message? Was it focused on keeping the Sabbath and Holy Days, or was it focused on placing one's faith in Jesus Christ? That was the hard question I asked myself.

Here's some other questions..if you think your position is biblically supported, please answer these:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...questions-sabbath-festival-torah-keepers.html

Regarding your attacks on Sunday goers, here's a thread I created that shows your behavior is typical of the Judaizers and others on this forum who practice the same sort of judgment..declaring Sunday goers to be unbelievers or spiritually inferior:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-old-covenant-observance-causes-division.html


Finally, I'd recommend reading Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff to clarify your thinking. It decimates the foolish arguments of those who think Sabbathkeeping is required for salvation very well. I wish I'd had it as a younger person.

 

[valiant]

Isaiah 66:22-24King James Version (KJV)

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Tell me, do you go forth, and look on the carcases of the men who have transgressed against God whose worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.? Or are you disobeying God?

 

[Grandpa]

why did God write the ten commandments with His own finger ?

Because they are the schoolmaster to bring people to Christ.

If you are still attempting to "keep" the commandments by your own strength and knowledge you are merely attempting to emulate something you don't fully understand.

Such as "keeping" a saturday sabbath. That's why its described as the shadow in the NT. Its not the real thing. Its an emulation of the real thing.

The powers and principalities that we fight against would rather have you practice emulations than experience and follow the Real Thing.

 

[waynebo59]

The main thing is that Christ kept the Sabbath and the Apostles kept the Sabbath.
No one with the authority nor powers from Heaven changed the Sabbath.
It was a none believing Constantine in 321ad that committed what was prophesized,change of the law and times in one step.

 

[sparkman]

The main thing is that Christ kept the Sabbath and the Apostles kept the Sabbath.
No one with the authority nor powers from Heaven changed the Sabbath.
It was a none believing Constantine in 321ad that committed what was prophesized,change of the law and times in one step.

Jewish Christians continued to keep the Sabbath and other elements of the Old Covenant. Gentile Christians were never required to. Jesus Christ was a Jew, and so was Paul. Jesus was under the Old Covenant, and New Covenant Christians are not.

Galatians is plain in teaching that Christians are not under the Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic aspects, and so is Colossians 2:16-17.

Again, every assertion by Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat observers can be addressed. I have done so on many of these issues on different threads.

Regarding Constantine, he did not prohibit Sabbathkeeping but required rest on Sunday. If someone wanted to rest on two days, there was no issue.

The Church itself made an edict regarding Judaizing by resting on the Sabbath in AD363 at the Council of Laodicea. I suspect this was done in order to combat Judaizers who were causing division in the church. This was long before the Roman Catholic Church came into existence; Rome was only one of several bishoprics at that time.

Christians were attending the Synagogues on Sabbath in order to hear the Scriptures read, as there was limited availability of Scriptures. They would meet on Sunday to observe communion and to discuss the Scriptures from a Christian standpoint.

In about AD90, the Jews started to persecute them by requiring recitation of the Eighteen Benedictions, one point of which denied Christianity, and they ceased being involved with the synagogues largely at that point.

The reality is that the vast majority of Christians ceased to meet on Saturday by AD150. Even Seventh Day Adventist historian Samuele Bacchiocchi admits that this is true despite his church's teachings.

As an ex Sabbath/Festival/clean and unclean meat law observer, I am aware how these groups distort both Scripture and history to make their assertions. And many of them are claiming others are unsaved or spiritually inferior to themselves. It's a joke really. I see more fruits of the Holy Spirit in the non-Sabbathkeeping church I go to. They are supporting an orphanage in India which feeds and clothes 60 Indian children. They provide them with a good Christian education. I have no doubt that this will produce pastors and missionaries amongst them.

Many of these Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat groups teach other bad theology as well..denying the full deity of Jesus Christ, moving toward Unitarian Monotheism like Jews, or denying the writings of Paul as Scripture. The group I came from taught that mankind was a God being in embryonic form, to be born into the God family as fully God at the resurrection. So their doctrinal problems don't end at Sabbath or festival observances.

 

[valiant]

The main thing is that Christ kept the Sabbath and the Apostles kept the Sabbath.
No one with the authority nor powers from Heaven changed the Sabbath.
It was a none believing Constantine in 321ad that committed what was prophesized,change of the law and times in one step.

But you ignore the significant fact that neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor Peter, nor John, nor James sought to bind anyone to keep the Sabbath. That the Gathering at Jerusalem (ACTS !5) did not require the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath. Clearly none of them saw it as important that Gentile Christians should keep the Sabbath.

Paul had authority from Heaven and he unquestionably made clear that observance of the Sabbath was unnecessary (Rom 14.5-6; Col 2.16-17).

The Epistle of Barnabas makes clear that in his area the Sabbath was not observed.

 

[prove-all]

sigh..................sure I can explain it, but will you listen? No. Your mind is made up.
He was talking to Israel, jews in a covenant relationship with God. Those jews are long dead and Christ ushered in a new covenant to include the gentile. I would give you those scriptures also, but you're not interested. .

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,

and from one sabbath to another, [shall all flesh] come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

-the verse says in a future time, [all flesh] will keep his Sabbath day, not just to an old test. jew

 

[sparkman]

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,

and from one sabbath to another, [shall all flesh] come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

-the verse says in a future time, [all flesh] will keep his Sabbath day, not just to an old test. jew

If you employ consistent reasoning, you need to observe animal sacrifices today, as the prophets also say that animal sacrifices are to be observed in the Millennium.

Colossians 2:16-17 also refutes the view that the Sabbath and Holy Days need to be observed today.

As I have described, the same language of "shadows of things to come" is used in Hebrews 10:1-2. Also "food and drink" is referring to food and drink offerings, despite the nonsensical attempts of some to claim otherwise.

An additional point I'd like to make with regards to Colossians 2:16-17..this point involves considering three different Scriptures (not of necessity but for support):

Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 9:10-12 [SUP]10 [/SUP]but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,[SUP][a][/SUP] then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) [SUP]12 [/SUP]he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Galatians 3:16-25 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Here is the reasoning:

1. Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together.

2. Food and drink offerings were imposed until the time of Reformation..which was when Christ came and died for our sins
per Hebrews 9:10-12.

3. Galatians 3:16-25 provides further support that the Old Covenant was only in effect until Christ came and died for our
sins. It is no longer in effect.

4. Since Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together, they are under the
same level of applicability to the New Covenant believer.

5. Additionally, Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same language of "shadows of things to come" in reference to animal sacrifices that
is applied to the Sabbath and Holy Days, placing them in this same category of inapplicable things.

As indicated on other posts, an additional point is that Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same reference of "shadow of things to come" in reference to the animal sacrifices as Colossians 2:16-17 uses in regards to the Sabbath, Holy Days, food and drink offerings.

Hebrews 10:1-2 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?


The reasoning that the Sabbath and Holy Days do not apply to New Covenant Christians is inescapable. If someone wants to observe them, fine, but don't accuse other non-observant individuals of being false Christians or being in sin. That's the main issue I have with some Sabbath/festival keepers.

 

[prove-all]

Colossians 2:16-17 also refutes the view that the Sabbath and Holy Days need to be observed today.

.

those verses say no such thing like you claim, we been over this before.

-shadows of things to come is future tence for starters.

God must be so proud of you fighting againest people who keep

Holy what God proclaimed Holy, and will be in the future.

 

[prove-all]

If you employ consistent reasoning, you need to observe animal sacrifices today, as the prophets also say that animal sacrifices are to be observed in the Millennium.

.

are you circumised of the heart, are you presenting God, yourself as a living sacarfice ?

I hope so because that is what the bible says to do.

oh thats right you do not believe we can become kings and priests in the future