Once saved always saved?

[mpaper345]

The Bible says that the saints are predestined to salvation,which they believe that God chooses who will be saved in the beginning,which comes once saved always saved,because they believe that if God choose them in the beginning then they cannot fall.

But this is not what this means predestination.

The Bible says that God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,because if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it already happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrances.

Everything was already planned in the beginning before God laid down the foundation of the world,so all future events from then on was the same as if it happened in the beginning,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened.

The Bible says that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later.

Jesus said that the glory that He had in the beginning He will share with the saints,but if He was talking of the glory He had as God in the beginning He would not be able to share that glory,for God does not give His glory to another,so it is obvious that Jesus is speaking that He will obtain a glorified body and sit on the throne in heaven,and the saints can have that glory of having a glorified body and being in heaven.Jesus had a glorified body in the beginning although it did not happen until 4000 years later.

The Old Testament says that Adam was created in the image of God.The New Testament says that Adam was made in the image of Christ.The image of God is the image of Christ.God made Adam in the image that He would appear in the future and that is an innocent nature in flesh.

Since God had the plan to come in the future in flesh and made Adam in that image,then Let us make man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus,for God manifest in the flesh is fully God and fully man,the man Christ Jesus.The man Christ Jesus was in the beginning before He was born because God calls things that have not happened as though they already happnened.

The Bible says that in the beginning was the Word,and the Word was made flesh.

The word of God is God revealing Himself by words written in a book.The Word of God is God revealing Himself personally by being manifest in the flesh.The Word is God manifest in the flesh which did not happen until 4000 years later but was in the beginning.

And other things such as that,that are attributed to being in the beginning,but did not actually happen until a future time.

When the Bible says that the saints are predestined to salvation,it does not mean that God chooses who will be saved in the beginning,but God had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if the saints have that salvation in the beginning,and this salvation is to whoever wants it.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world although it did not happen until 4000 years later,and the saints are predestined to salvation although it did not happen until 4000 years later when the Lamb was slain,and from then on to whoever wants salvation.

The Bible says that many are called but few are chosen,so obviously God does the calling while people are on earth and does the choosing while people are on earth,because God can only call someone while they are on earth,and the choosing comes after the calling.

The Bible says that God is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance,so God wants everybody to be saved.

God says He commands all people to repent of their sins,and why would God want all people to repent of their sins when it would not make a difference to the people He did not choose.

The Bible says that Jesus lights every person that is born in to this world,which means everybody can see the truth of Jesus and be saved.

The Bible says whosoever wants salvation can have salvation.

God chose the whole nation of Israel to follow Him,and gave them His covenant,but not all of them are saved spiritually.

If God does choose who will be saved in the beginning then God's kingdom is not based on true love but robotic love,because these people have no choice but to say,I love you,seeing no other alternative.

You can program your computer to say,I love you,but the computer does not love you,but has no choice but to say,I love you,seeing no other alternative.

God's kingdom would not be robotic love but true love,which if we have a choice then it is true love,and when the Bible says that we did not choose God but He chose us,and no one comes to the Father,but by the Son,it is talking while we are on earth,because nobody can truly come to the truth unless the Father shows them,and God does the calling on earth,and if a person continues in that calling then God will chose them,but not everybody continues in that calling.

The Bible says that all are sinners and come short of the glory of God,and there is none righteous,no not one,and if you offend in the least of the law then you offend in all,so it sounds like every human is in the same boat,so why would God choose some and not others in the beginning when all are of the same cloth.

God choosing some in the beginning to be saved and not others goes against the good nature of God.God is not evil that He would not choose people in the beginning when they did nothing wrong.

Predestined to salvation means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of he world,so it is the same as if the saints have that salvation in the beginning,and that salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.

God does the calling and choosing on earth.

The scriptures say that God wants everybody to be saved and commands all people to repent,and that salvation is to whoever wants it.

God's kingdom is true love and not robotic love,so we have to make the choice to love God,for then it is true love.

God is not evil that He would choose some in the beginning and not others,when all people are in the same boat,and all guilty of sin.

[SUP]12[/SUP] Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall(1 Corinthians 10:12).

And this sums it up.If any person thinks they stand,take heed lest you fall,because when a person thinks they cannot fall,that is when they might become relaxed in their walk with God and not measure up and fall,because they think I cannot fall and the flesh might take opportunity of that.Dabble in a little drugs and sexual immorality,hey I cannot fall.Cheat on the wife and steal a little,hey I cannot fall.Be in to worldly pleasures,hey I cannot fall.

Also if God did choose in the beginning and it is a true doctrine,then God would not be upset if you said,I stand and cannot fall,then why would he say,If any person thinks He stands,take heed lest you fall.

 

[Angela53510]

Yes, but when God reveals himself to you, how could you not both love and fear him? When we think it is about our choice to love God properly, we will always fail, because it is human efforts. Instead, God starts the process by revealing himself, and we can only worship and adore him for his amazing love!

When it is about God giving us the grace to love him, because of who he is, then it is God that initiates and closed the deal on our salvation. Thus, we remain in him from the start till we see him face to face.

"God demonstrates his love for us in this, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us." 1 John 4:9-12

 

[hind_let_loose]

Hi Christine,

Great question(s). You're right that the Bible seems to have two type of passages, some suggesting that real Christians can fall away from the faith, and others suggesting that real Christians cannot fall away. I've become convinced that genuinely converted people who have experienced true forgiveness and reconciliation with God cannot fall away from the faith. Rather than call it "once saved, always saved," however, I fall into the camp of people who believe it is better called, "Perseverance of the saints." "Once saved, always saved" sounds like a person can be saved, turn away from Christ, live like the devil, and go to heaven. That's obviously not the case. But "perseverance of the saints" suggests that if someone is really saved, then they will persevere in the faith and, although they may suffer some backslidings throughout their lives, they will ultimately persevere in the Christian faith and way of life, and finally go to heaven when they die.

That said, what Scripture teaches is more important than what I've become convinced of. So the key to getting a good handle on Scripture's teaching is to do some systematic theology and offer an account of the doctrine that makes sense of all the passages on the topic -- both those that seem to support and undermine the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. So, here's what I'm going to do:

First, I'm going to offer a more thorough account of the doctrine.
Second, I'm going to a Biblical defence of the doctrine using, importantly, passages that are typically used to defend both sides of the "once saved, always save"/"perseverance of the saints" debate.

1. The thorough account of the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints

If someone is genuinely regenerate (i.e., born again/converted), this person is a true Christian in union with Christ. Christ has committed Himself to this person with the purpose of saving him or her. No matter what happens in this person's life, Christ will never let him or her commit the unpardonable sin and Christ, through the power of His Spirit, will ultimately bring him or her back from any backslidings, etc. Christ began the good work in this person, and Christ will finish it.

It is also a fact of life, however, that many people who are not genuinely regenerate (i.e., born again/converted) can be virtually indistinguishable from the real Christian in all points except regeneration and perseverance (and whatever property of true, saving faith it is that guarantees the believer's perseverance). These people are, during the time that they are "Christian", correct to believe that if they continue on this path until they die, they will be saved. They really do believe in Christ. They really have repented of sin. They really have been sanctified by the Spirit. And so on. But they do all of this deficiently because they do it all in a way that will end up being temporary.

So, what we have, here, are two types of "Christians": 1) persevering Christians and 2) temporary "Christians." If we could take snapshots of their lives at different times, they are indistinguishable. If we asked whether they would both be on the true path to heaven during their "Christian" periods, we would answer that, yes, if they all persevere like they are now, they would go to heaven. As a result, whether or not a person is a genuine persevering Christian or a false, temporary "Christian", it is true to say that, "If they persevere, they will be saved; if they fall away, they will be damned." And, for our own practical purposes, we must say the same about ourselves: if we fall away from the faith, we will be damned; but if we persevere, we will be saved.

Consequently, and importantly, this truth that we will be damned if we fall away from the faith is often used by God as a motive for His true converts to repent of sin and persevere in the faith. In other words, even though God has guaranteed the persevance of true Christians, there is no excuse for them to be presumptuous in thinking they will go to heaven even if they live in sin and godlessness. If they wander into sin, they will lose the assurance of their salvation (they don't lose their salvation, just the subjective feeling of confidence that they are saved). Yet, despite all of this, we can be fully persuaded and 100% confident that no true Christians will fall away from the faith -- they will all certainly be saved in the end.

The account of the perseverance of the saints that I just introduced above contains five significant doctrines:

Doctrine 1. All true Christians -- genuinely born again -- will persevere in the end and be saved.
Doctrine 2. There are temporary "Christians" who are at times virtually indistinguishable from true Christians, except their faith and repentance lacks a persevering character.
Doctrine 3. Both true Christians and temporary "Christians" will be saved if they persevere in their faith until the end, and both would be damned if they ultimately fell from their faith.
Doctrine 4. It is appropriate, at times, for true Christians to be motivated to persevere by a fear of falling away.
Doctrine 5. Assurance (or subjective confidence) that we are saved is a function of (determined in part by) our present way of life, whether it furnishes evidence of perseverance or not.

2. Defending the 5 doctrines of this account of the Perseverance of the Saints

So, here's the Biblical defence of these doctrines:

Doctrine 1: All true Christians -- genuinely born again -- will persevere in the end and be saved.

This doctrine is taught in a variety of places, but here are a few compelling ones:

Passage 1. 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be manifest that they were not all of us."

The conditional in red is very important. It clearly tells us that if someone is one of God's people, he or she will continue with God's people. And the claim is strengthened by the text in blue. After all, if it is true that "if someone is one of God's people, he or she will continue with God's people," then we may infer that if someone leaves God's people, then they were not truly one of God's people in the first place. So, this passage teaches Doctrine 1: All true Christians -- genuinely born again -- will persevere in the end and be saved.


Passage 2. Philippians 1:4-6 "Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

This passage shows that Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, could be confident of a specific truth: if God has begun a good work of saving someone with the Gospel message (i.e., they are regenerated or born again), then He will perform that good work in the person until the last day. In other words, if God gives the gift of true salvation, He also gives along with it the gift of perseverance unto the end. While 1 John 2:19 is a stronger passage than this one when it comes to supporting Doctrine 1, this is still compelling -- especially when we know from 1 John that true Christians will continue with us.

Passage 3: Romans 5:8-10, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

This is an argument from the greater to the lesser. Roughly, this: if God did some greater (or harder, more impressive, etc.) thing, then we know He will do some lesser (or easier, more commonsense, etc.) thing. In this case, Paul effectively reasons like this:

1. It is a much harder thing (psychologically) to save an enemy than it is to save your friend.
2. God initially saved us when we were His enemies -- He reconciled us to himself.
3. So, now that we are His friends, we know that He will do the much easier (psychologically) thing, and save us -- His friends.

From this, then, we know that if someone has been genuinely reconciled to God by the cross of Christ -- i.e., is a true Christian -- then God will ultimately save us on the last day.

There are many other passages that confirm this first doctrine, and some will come up below as I discuss the other doctrines in question. But this is sufficient for now.
Doctrine 2: There are temporary "Christians" who are at times virtually indistinguishable from true Christians, except their faith and repentance lacks a persevering character.

Passage 1: John 2:23-25, "Now when he [i.e., Jesus] was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of men: for he knew what was in man."

In this passage, we see what happens when people believe in Christ but not with a persevering faith. These Jews were among those same people who turned away from Christ later. They believed in His name, but Jesus "did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men." Notice, here, that there is a difference between saving faith and non-saving faith. Christ knows this difference, too, and when someone exercises faith in Him that is deficient in some important way -- and certainly if it isn't the kind of faith that will stay loyal to Christ for life -- Jesus does not commit Himself to the person. In other words, they aren't saved. So, here, we see that you can have believers who do not qualify as true Christians because Christ, in His omniscience, knows there is a present or future deficiency in their faith. These are temporary "Christians."

Passage 2: Hebrews 6:4-9, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

In this passage, we see (in purple) that there are people who have been elightened and made partakers of the Holy Ghost, who have repented, and who have tasted the good word of God, the heavenly gift, and the powers of the world to come. In other words, these people sound a lot like Christians. In fact, they sound a lot like us if we are Christians. And (in green), we see that if they fall away from this state of grace, it is impossible for them to be renewed again unto repentance. So, here is the threat of genuine apostasy (or falling away) for these people. And it sounds like the unpardonable sin, in fact, since there's no hope of salvation after this falling away has taken place. It appears to be the unpardonable sin. However, if you look at the red, we see that Paul (or the author of Hebrews) realizes that people who have all of these blessings (listed in purple), if they fall away, were never saved. Why? In the red text (v. 9), he says that he is persuaded that true Christians won't fall away. "We are persuaded of better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." In other words, Paul is saying, "Though there are people who will fall away from all the blessings listed here, and though they may appear to be true Christians, they aren't. But I believe you are, beloved. And, as true Christians, I'm persuaded you won't fall away because you have true salvation, and perseverance accompanies true salvation. So don't be too discouraged by this warning."

More passages can be supplied for this, but this is enough. This is long enough as-is.

Doctrine 3. Both true Christians and temporary "Christians" will be saved if they persevere in their faith until the end, and both would be damned if they ultimately fell from their faith.

While this is true, all true Christians will in fact persevere, and all the temporary "Christians" will fall short of salvation in some way. That said, here are a couple texts that show this:

Passage 1: John 8:30-32, "As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Here, we see a group of believing Jews. They heard Jesus, and they were convinced to believe on Him. But Jesus distinguishes between His disciples in general and His "disciples indeed" -- basically, true disciples and mere believers. What is the difference between the two? It isn't what they're doing now. It is what they do in the future: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." Persevering faith distinguishes the two. But when they both are new believers, they both need to realize that if they fall away, they will be damned; but if they continue in His word, they will be saved." That's Doctrine 3.

Passage 2: Ezekiel 3:20-21, "Again, when a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his rightesousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul."

In this passage, we see real and temporary "Christians" grouped together without distinction as the "righteous" -- clearly meanigng these are people with faith, repentance, and some degree of sanctification. If they persevere in this "righteousness," they will be saved. If they turn from this "righteousness," their righteousness will be forgotten and they will die in their sins. Again, this is Doctrine 3.


Doctrine 4. It is appropriate, at times, for true Christians to be motivated to persevere by a fear of falling away.

Passage 1: Colossians 1:21-23, "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister."

This is directed to people who are reconciled to God through the death of Christ. In particular, they will be presented on the last day as holy, blameless, and spotless in the sight of God...if they continue in the faith. Will they actually persevere? If they are reconciled by the death of Christ, then yes. That's what we saw under Doctrine 1 when we discussed Romans 5 -- if God reconciled us when enemies, then he will certainly save us now that we are friends. But, still, we ought to keep in mind that we must continue in the faith "grounded and settled," if we want to be go to heaven.

Passage 2: 1 Corinthians 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Here, we see that the fear of being a castaway is a motive for Paul to live a godly, persevering life. He doesn't want to fall short of full perseverance. All Christians at times may be similarly motivated to persevere by recognition that failing to persevere will be our damnation.

Doctrine 5. Assurance (or subjective confidence) that we are saved is a function of (determined in part by) our present way of life, whether it furnishes evidence of perseverance or not.

Since a true Christian and a temporary "Christian" -- a fake all along, really -- can appear indistinguishable to our (human) eyes, how can we be sure that we're real Christians rather than fakes? Well, since the difference between the two is primarily that the faith of the true Christian is a persevering faith, we woule expect our assurance of salvation to depend on evidence that we're growing in grace -- i.e., walking like persevering Christians. And that's what we find in Scripture.

Passage 1: 2 Peter 1:5-11, "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things in blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Here, Peter tells believers to give "all diligence" to grow in the graces and virtues that I highlighted in purple. If these virtues and graces are in you and increasing ("abounding"), then you're going to be a fruitful Christian. Those who don't have these things, however, are falling and forgetting that they were purged of their old sins. They are straying from Christ and in danger of damnation. So, how do you make "sure" that you're among the called and elect that inherit eternal life? That is, how do you go to bed at night with confidence that you're a true Christian? You (see the red) give diligence to grow in these graces and virtues (see purple).

Conclusion

That's enough for now. I hope it helps!

Regards!

 

[tenderhearted]

I gave my life to Jesus when I was 7 yrs. old. I lived with a mother who backslid for many years. My parents were divorced, so my father took me to church on Sundays. I didn't have Christ modeled to me at home, so when I hit my teen years I made a lot of poor choices. I take full responsibility for my actions.

God was still with me and I felt his presence in my life. I knew that I could always run to him. At 18, I rededicated my life to Christ. I didn't feel like I was born again a second time. I felt like I was surrendering my whole life to Christ. He became in charge of all areas of my life. I have been a work in progress ever since. God is my forgiving daddy.

 

[Christine1974]

Thank you hind let loose. That was an amazing lesson for me. I appreciate that you took that much time and effort to respond. I learned more from your response than I have the past year asking others. I have actually read it three times already and took notes. Very valuable. Thank you.

 

[wattie]

I'm new here but just by reading y'alls discussion I'm very interested in what y'all feel about this topic. There are scriptures too back up both sides and since God doesn't contradict Himself then there must be only one answer. I ask this because of my personal experiences and other people I know. For myself I was raised in the church, went to Sunday school, read my bible, baptised, etc. As I got into my twenties I fell away from it. I lived very much of the world. However if somebody would've asked me if I was a Christian I would've said of course,I love Jesus, believe He died for my sins and I will be forgiven and go to heaven. Then years later(almost twenty) I got born again(again?)and started realizing how sinful and far away from God I really was. Some people say well then obviously you weren't saved back then because you wouldn't have lived like you did but I feel like I was. I was sincere when I did it. I feel like you can lose your salvation. Isn't that what Paul warns us about? Isn't that why we must wear our armor? I feel like most of the warnings in the New Testament are to believers. If we can't lose our salvation, why are the warnings in the bible for us. Thank you for reading my post.

Please have a look at old threads on this ! It has been sooooooooooo thrashed out.

All I will say is consider the simplicity of scripture.. and not your personal experience or emotions, because they go up and down.

John 3:16
John 5:24
John 10:28
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans chapter 10

etc etc etc..

I know people will say OSAS means 'oh now I will do whatever I want' But that is just thinking carnally.

You get rescued ..get freed.. would you then just wander away from that person who saved you and don't care?

Few would. Most would be thankful

OSAS is about comfort, security and hope.

peace

 

[crossnote]

I believe OSAS is true, but the danger it runs is that some start trusting in that doctrine instead of Christ Himself.

 

[hind_let_loose]

Thank you hind let loose. That was an amazing lesson for me. I appreciate that you took that much time and effort to respond. I learned more from your response than I have the past year asking others. I have actually read it three times already and took notes. Very valuable. Thank you.

You're welcome. I can't tell you how pleased I am that it helped you make some progress on the topic. It was so long, I was afraid you wouldn't even bother reading it. Ha.

Take care.

 

[Dan58]

There are good scriptures proving both sides.

I think the only way it can be proven correct or error(OSAS) is to be able to interpret a scripture that is for OSAS and interpret a scripture that is against OSAS and make the scriptures harmonize proving OSAS to be correct or in error.

Because we all know that scripture should interpret scripture.

I agree, there's scripture supporting osas and also scripture warning of a falling away. King Saul was anointed by God, yet he rebelled, was unrepentant, and fell away. Judas was chosen by Christ and betrayed him. Even Satan himself was appointed to a high position at one time.. I personally believe its possible to fall from grace. As long as people have a choice, they can change their minds.

The problem I have with the slogan "osas" is that while it assures us that God will not forsake a believer, many young people interpret it as a guarantee and run with the freedom to sin. My nephew went to church once, he answered an altar call where the minister assured him that he was saved. My nephew never went back and became a heroine addict. When I tried to encourage him to go to rehab and go back to church, he said; "I don't need to, I'm already saved and can do whatever I want". I suspect that many people profess to be a Christian just for the insurance, when God wants us to live as Christians for the assurance. My nephew died last Saturday of an over-dose, no problem though, he was insured by osas inc.

 

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

Go to the search function and put in OSAS. I think you will find many long, long threads with people hashing this out.

This includes one person, who tells the same story as you. How he "backslid" and now thinks everyone is going to lose their salvation for living reprobate lives.

My testimony is quite different. I was very evil before I came to Christ at age 26. God has been holding onto me and transforming me every day since he saved me 35 years ago. I was not perfect, by any means. But I was always faithful in my commitment, and confessed my sins, as they happened. God did not desert me, and I know he will not desert you, Christine.

And you are still evil. All of us are.

Jesus said this to His own disciples:

Luke 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"


and


Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

 

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

I believe OSAS is true, but the danger it runs is that some start trusting in that doctrine instead of Christ Himself.

Why is it a danger if it is true?

 

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

Short answer:

There is counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23), and there is true faith of the born again.

Counterfeit faith eventually apostasizes permanently, true faith preserveres.

The Scriptures used to show loss of salvation actually apply to counterfeit faith, which does not save.
The Scriptures showing the security of salvation refer to true faith of the born again.

The issue is true faith vs. counterfeit, not security of salvation vs. loss of salvation.
There is no loss of salvation. God keeps his own.

Where do you come up with this idea, since it was the Lord Himself who said thus:

Matt 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

And this one, very much so, gives context:

Matt 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Matt 13:21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

and here, too:

Matt 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


Oh, and let us certainly not forget this one, which could not be more clear!:


Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

So in other words you have zero scripture to support this concept. It is something entirely made up that you based the idea of off of a personal (yet incorrect) interpretation of repentance.
Nowhere in scripture, even discussing repentance, is the concept of being born again twice come up. Did Christ also have to be crucified twice to cover both of your salvations? No? Why not?
Sorry if this sounds snotty. Not meaning it to. (=

Here is exactly what she is referring to, that you claim is not in the bible:

Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[mailmandan]

The Bible says that the saints are predestined to salvation,which they believe that God chooses who will be saved in the beginning, which comes once saved always saved, because they believe that if God choose them in the beginning then they cannot fall. But this is not what this means predestination.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them.

Also if God did choose in the beginning and it is a true doctrine,then God would not be upset if you said, I stand and cannot fall, then why would he say, If any person thinks He stands,take heed lest you fall.

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[mailmandan]

There is no loss of salvation. God keeps his own.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

 

[passing_through]

Salvation is between Christ and God, man is not in the equation initially. Why, because God looked upon the travel (spl?) of Jesus' soul and was satisfied -- sins debt has been paid. Yes, it is paramount that we believe the message of salvation (the gospel), but after we believe God consummates the transaction by imparting his faith to us. If man had anything to do with salvation then it is defiled, corrupted.

Since I couldn't bring salvation about then it is surety that I can't lose it.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Thank you crossnote. Although I don't know if that was what was happening to me. Twenty years is a long time for the seed to start to grow. I feel like I stepped away from Jesus not that He stepped away from me. I think I let my guard down and Satan got me. I thank God that now I am no longer lost.

I prefer to use "TWICE BORN" vs osas. There are scriptural requirements for being BORN AGAIN, and the connotation of the words is explained in the scriptures. To be born, there must be a "conception" or planting, then God matures the "pregnancy" until the person is "born again". Now because the process is a spiritual one, there are no limitations on the length of time for the "pregnancy" to come to full term.... unless we die (physically). I grappled with this very long, because I wanted to be SURE I had it right (with God)... so in the end I have wrestled and concluded, YES I AM BORN AGAIN, and all the other stuff before that time was a long and difficult gestation. In continuing in faith, it is my responsibility to the scripture to learn the precepts of God and seek him... otherwise I can stray away from him. He never leaves me... but people sure do wander away from him.

 

[notuptome]

Hebrews 6:4 prohibits more than one born again experience. Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

To know and understand the person of God is necessary to have peace with the biblical doctrine of eternal security of the believer. One must also distinguish between the scriptures that speak of salvation and those that are addressing sanctification.

It does tend to follow that those who teach that salvation can be lost must rely upon works as evidence of salvation. Scripture teaches that it is the witness of Gods Spirit with our spirit that is our evidence of true salvation by grace through faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[valiant]

I agree, there's scripture supporting osas and also scripture warning of a falling away. King Saul was anointed by God, yet he rebelled, was unrepentant, and fell away.

So you know what his personal state of heart was? you know what his eternal destination was? I don't think so. Cyrus was also anointed by God. Was he saved? We are in no position to answer such questions

Judas was chosen by Christ and betrayed him.

He also no doubt performed miracles in Jesus' name. But Jesus knew from the beginning that he was a devil and would betray him (John 6.70-71). How then could he ever have been 'saved?

Even Satan himself was appointed to a high position at one time.

well that is surmise based on a doubtful interpretation which is guesswork.

.

I personally believe its possible to fall from grace. As long as people have a choice, they can change their minds.

you are of course free to cast doubt on Jesus' promises. I prefer to believe that He means what He says. And I am confident that God is able to ensure that we don't 'change our minds'. Given the right incentives we never will.

The problem I have with the slogan "osas" is that while it assures us that God will not forsake a believer, many young people interpret it as a guarantee and run with the freedom to sin.

That is why I dislike the slogan. Our security does not depend on us it depends on Jesus Christ. I prefer to read it as once a Saviour, always a Saviour. That is nearer to the truth. Anyone who thinks he can ask Christ to save him and then thinks he can run amok is a fool. If Christ begins to save him he will soon learn differently. Whom the Lord loves He chastens, and SCOURGES every son whom He receives. And His scourging is not pleasant.

My nephew went to church once, he answered an altar call where the minister assured him that he was saved.

The minister was a fool. NO ONE can be sure that someone else is saved. He was giving false assurance.

My nephew never went back and became a heroine addict. When I tried to encourage him to go to rehab and go back to church, he said; "I don't need to, I'm already saved and can do whatever I want".

That is sad and brings out the minister's folly. C H Spurgeon once foolishly did the same. But he learned the lesson from a similar incident and never did so again.

I suspect that many people profess to be a Christian just for the insurance, when God wants us to live as Christians for the assurance. My nephew died last Saturday of an over-dose, no problem though, he was insured by osas inc.

I am sad to hear about your nephew. And even sadder about his false assurance. I am sure that you are right that people try to obtain a fire insurance against Hell. But that has nothing to do with genuine conversion which produces both faith and repentance. Because people are fools is no reason for doubting Christ's ability to save to the uttermost. Those who use salvation as an escape valve are certainly not saved. For salvation is not from judgment, but from sin. We cannot permanently love sin and be saved. It would simply demonstrate that we were not being saved.

 

[valiant]

I prefer to use "TWICE BORN" vs osas. There are scriptural requirements for being BORN AGAIN, and the connotation of the words is explained in the scriptures. To be born, there must be a "conception" or planting, then God matures the "pregnancy" until the person is "born again". Now because the process is a spiritual one, there are no limitations on the length of time for the "pregnancy" to come to full term.... unless we die (physically). I grappled with this very long, because I wanted to be SURE I had it right (with God)... so in the end I have wrestled and concluded, YES I AM BORN AGAIN, and all the other stuff before that time was a long and difficult gestation. In continuing in faith, it is my responsibility to the scripture to learn the precepts of God and seek him... otherwise I can stray away from him. He never leaves me... but people sure do wander away from him.

And you think Jesus watches them go and wrings His hands and says, 'Oh dear I've failed again?'