Once saved always saved?

[KennethC]

Kenneth-- dcon nor I CHANGE the verses.. we put them in the context they are in!

For eg.. 'he who endures to the end will be saved'.. the surrounding verses are about people escaping from trouble.. harsh times. The word 'save' here being in the sense of 'rescue' not 'rescue from sins for eternal life'

for eg.. 'faith without works is dead'..the surrounding verses are about accounts of people who are already converted doing acts of service to God. Abraham.. Rahab etc... Saving faith is not the topic. Eternal life is not the topic.

for eg. 'the verse with 'there is no longer a sacrifice for sins' ... surrounding context in Hebrews is about animal sacrifices no longer being required.. and so this verse would be about the same thing. Eternal salvation again is not the subject.

for eg. 'Abraham being 'justified by works' when he offered up his son Isaac. When you actually go to the account of Abraham doing that... it has nothing to do with receiving conversion from God.

His offering of his son was pleasing in the eyes of God... that is it. Again eternal salvation is not the subject.

I could go on..

The point being that the verses are not changed at all. ... they are put in their right surrounds!

I think you need to go back and look at history with the early first Apostles as every single one of them was persecuted, beaten, exiled, and/or killed/crucified. They did not escape those troubles and Jesus even warned them that they would face them in Matthew 10;

Peter- crucified upside down


Paul- beheaded


Matthew- slain by a halberd


John- exiled on Patmos

James- put to deat by the sword by Herod Agrippa ( Acts 12:2 )


Andrew- crucified by Roman Governor, Aegeas( Aegeates )
{ bound not nailed to cross to prolong suffering }


Bartholomew- beaten with rods and then beheaded


James, son of Alpheus- beaten, stoned, then clubbed to death


Thomas- thrust through with spears, tortured with red hot plates, and then burned alive.


Philip- tortured, stoned, crucified upside down


Simon- crucified and/or sawed in half


Judas Thaddeus- beaten to death in Mesopotamia


Judas- committed suicide for betraying Jesus


Matthias- (replaced Judas) stoned to death


Plus the Lord Jesus told them and us this;

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.


Lord Jesus did not say they would escape troubles but would face them for standing for His word, and even told them that if they persecute you in a town for them to flee to another..........Matthew 10:23

Hebrews 10:26-31 says those who continue to deliberately sin after receiving the truth are trampling the Son of God underfoot and will face judgment and the fiery indignation of the lake of fire.

Apostle Paul clearly in three places teaches/instructs the falling away/ departing from the faith and those who do this will not end up with eternal life......Acts 20:28-31, Galatians, 1 Timothy 4

And a multiple of other places Apostle Paul says only those who continue in the faith and are not removed from the hope will receive eternal life. Once again changing salvation scriptures to try and fit a non-salvation standing can only be done if you take them out of context and try and make them stand alone. You have to use scripture to interpret scripture !!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Well I have had my discussions with Dcon and he misuses a lot of verses, so if you are following what he says then I can understand you confussion. I go by the word of God and the direction of the Holy Spirit, not what another man says !!!

Changing verses on judgment and eternal life to say they are not speaking on those topics is a miss-justice to God's word.

There is only one who misuses scripture, denies verb tense and preaches a works based salvation and then states they don't and that is you pal!

 

[KennethC]

There is only one who misuses scripture, denies verb tense and preaches a works based salvation and then states they don't and that is you pal!

Really ???

Tell us again how you take Hebrews 10:26-31 and make it not a passage on salvation again, and try to say the fiery indignation has nothing to do with the lake of fire.

 

[dcontroversal]

You misinterpreted those verses, but I am not going to get into it, I would love dcon to address them if he would. I'm not running away.

Amen to that.....the biggest problem is the simple fact that he makes every place the word saved is used about eternal soul salvation and the simple truth is that not every place the word is used is talking abut the salvation of the soul....there are numerous set of verses that deal with enduring physically and being preserved physically....when Jesus is teaching his disciples he is teaching the first true testament church of saved, immersed church members and a lot of the word is applicable to the saints in any age when the end comes......

 

[KennethC]

Amen to that.....the biggest problem is the simple fact that he makes every place the word saved is used about eternal soul salvation and the simple truth is that not every place the word is used is talking abut the salvation of the soul....there are numerous set of verses that deal with enduring physically and being preserved physically....when Jesus is teaching his disciples he is teaching the first true testament church of saved, immersed church members and a lot of the word is applicable to the saints in any age when the end comes......

I think the history of the first Apostles that I showed in post #81 proves that your interpretation of Matthew 10:22 being about escaping troubles/persecutions is wrong !!!

For they all faced troubles, persecutions, and were even killed except for John who was exiled, and Jesus clearly said they would face those things not escape them...........

Plus you did not answer post #83

 

[dcontroversal]

Really ???

Tell us again how you take Hebrews 10:26-31 and make it not a passage on salvation again, and try to say the fiery indignation has nothing to do with the lake of fire.

The very word wrath--orge means fiery indignation of God and is indicative of God's judgment upon the world by fire and is NOT hell or the lake of fire and Hebrews 10 and the context is clear...those who trample under foot the Son of God by counting the blood of Christ a COMMON ORDINARY BASE THING which the saved children of God do not.....I will not argue with you over your works based endurance pseudo salvation........The verb tense is clear and the bible is clear....you believe...you are a son of God NOW and currently possessing eternal life NOW (spiritually).....what you fail to understand is that it is the spirit that has been born again and that spirit is born of GOD'S SEED and it is ETERNAL and does not sin and CRYS ABBA FATHER......one of the days you might get lucky and figure that out!

 

[BarlyGurl]

Men.... we can admire your passion and zeal...but read with easier comprehension if you rein in your tempers and be more respectful to each other...PLEASE

 

[KennethC]

The very word wrath--orge means fiery indignation of God and is indicative of God's judgment upon the world by fire and is NOT hell or the lake of fire and Hebrews 10 and the context is clear...those who trample under foot the Son of God by counting the blood of Christ a COMMON ORDINARY BASE THING which the saved children of God do not.....I will not argue with you over your works based endurance pseudo salvation........The verb tense is clear and the bible is clear....you believe...you are a son of God NOW and currently possessing eternal life NOW (spiritually).....what you fail to understand is that it is the spirit that has been born again and that spirit is born of GOD'S SEED and it is ETERNAL and does not sin and CRYS ABBA FATHER......one of the days you might get lucky and figure that out!

Proved my point as that passage says nothing about facing God's wrath on the earth, it says will stand before Him during judgment.

 

[Jason0047]

For eg.. 'he who endures to the end will be saved'.. the surrounding verses are about people escaping from trouble.. harsh times. The word 'save' here being in the sense of 'rescue' not 'rescue from sins for eternal life'

Salvation is in view in Matthew 24 with "he who endures to the end will be saved" because it fits the context. In the context it says the evil servant (which is a contrast to the faithful and wise servant) shall be cut asunder, and will be appointed with the portion of the hypocrites and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So salvation is in view here. Second, other verses in Scripture say the same thing. Revelation 2:10 says, "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life." In Romans 11:21-22 it says, "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

for eg.. 'faith without works is dead'..the surrounding verses are about accounts of people who are already converted doing acts of service to God. Abraham.. Rahab etc... Saving faith is not the topic. Eternal life is not the topic.

Well, last I read the Bible, there is only one kind of faith and not two or more kinds of faith. We are saved by God's grace THRU faith. One kind of faith and not many faiths. Also, James in verse 9 says, if you have respect of persons you commit sin.

for eg. 'the verse with 'there is no longer a sacrifice for sins' ... surrounding context in Hebrews is about animal sacrifices no longer being required.. and so this verse would be about the same thing. Eternal salvation again is not the subject.

No in Hebrews 10 it is talking about salvation under the New Covenant. For Hebrews 10 makes a contrast of punishment between the Old and New.

"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much worse punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done insult unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29).

for eg. 'Abraham being 'justified by works' when he offered up his son Isaac. When you actually go to the account of Abraham doing that... it has nothing to do with receiving conversion from God.

His offering of his son was pleasing in the eyes of God... that is it. Again eternal salvation is not the subject.

I could go on..

The point being that the verses are not changed at all. ... they are put in their right surrounds!

Christ (God) ultimately does the good work in the believer.

 

[KennethC]

Men.... we can admire your passion and zeal...but read with easier comprehension if you rein in your tempers and be more respectful to each other...PLEASE

I try to be respectful but can not stand for those who take and automatically say others are false teachers and make sarcastic remarks toward them just because they do not agree with them.

Man learning systems have taken the word of God and over complicated it when it is simple to understand when the Holy Spirit is the only One the scriptures say we need to guide us in understanding His truth.

 

[KennethC]

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Colossians 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

The fruits of the Spirit that will be evident in all true born again believers will lead a person to not sin, and have control over sin so that it does not control them which gives one victory over sin through the Lord. We are to put away are sinful ways and not walk in them any more as that is still living by the flesh, and Apostle Paul makes this evident.

He tells us we are to walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh, and those who walk by the flesh will die (eternal death) but those who walk by the Spirit will live (eternal life).

 

[MarcR]

The scriptures are very clear on this subject and do not contradict when they are taken in proper context.

A person who accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior and continues to keep the faith through life facing the trials and tribulations that come to all of us. Then they do fall under the category of once saved always saved for they never fell away from the faith in Christ.

However the key in those passages from Paul is "continue in the faith," for Apostle Paul also gives us the other side of the equation for those who do not continue in the faith and that outcome is not eternal life.

Apostle Paul said more then once to those who departed/fell away from the faith that Christ has become of no effect (no remission of sins) and they have fallen from grace. Both of those are needed to receive eternal life, and two of the other Apostles John and James show this as well. (1 John 2-4, James 5:19-20)

The main issue with this is some churches have been teaching their congregation to separate the walk in the faith from faith itself for salvation. The problem is the bible multiple times shows that how one walks determines if they are saved or not, as the fruits of the Spirit will be evident in our actions.

The bible from Jesus to Revelation speaks on these fruits/actions and says that those who these fruits are not produced in will be cut off and burned. The bible does support both stances, but the once saved always saved is only supported by those who continue in the faith without falling away from it.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

This quite effectively destroys the Roman Catholic belief that Peter was an infallible Pope.


Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Here we see Peter acting insincerely out of fear (much like he did on the night he denied Jesus). Are you going to tell me that Peter lost his Salvation?

 

[Grandpa]

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

This quite effectively destroys the Roman Catholic belief that Peter was an infallible Pope.


Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Here we see Peter acting insincerely out of fear (much like he did on the night he denied Jesus). Are you going to tell me that Peter lost his Salvation?

Those who propose to not believe in Once Saved Always Saved don't mean that they can lose their salvation.

They mean that you can lose your salvation.

When you show them the precarious situation they are in because of their (un)belief, all of a sudden they are no longer preaching a works based salvation but a Christ based Salvation.

Interesting how that works out...

 

[BarlyGurl]

>>>>Here we see Peter acting insincerely out of fear (much like he did on the night he denied Jesus). Are you going to tell me that Peter lost his Salvation?<<<<

MarcR, I read this passage is about Peter teaching Gentiles to follow Jewish customs... not the precepts of God. Further, that Peter was reprimanded in front of everyone... I surmise he repented (acknowledged the correction and stopped doing that)... as he continues in ministry. So NO, I do not conclude he lost his salvation... I do not think "lose" is a good term... repudiate or deny I think are better terms.

I am struggling with appropriate way to signify.... the difference between religious law (jewish custom) and the lifestyle of thieves, murderers, adulterers, homosexuals etc.

I have seen God reform all of the above.... and I have also seen people who once "looked" like they were following the Lordship of Christ enter into the above lifestyles.

 

[KennethC]

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

This quite effectively destroys the Roman Catholic belief that Peter was an infallible Pope.


Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Here we see Peter acting insincerely out of fear (much like he did on the night he denied Jesus). Are you going to tell me that Peter lost his Salvation?

First off once again I am not, nor am I affliated with the Roman Catholic denomination.

Second Peter was not a pope of the Catholic church, as that church did not start tell centuries later, and the term catholic came into play in the 2nd century (101-200 AD) and was only used to describe the universal aspect that anybody no matter what race or nationality could become saved through Christ.

Third Peter was a man and could make mistakes and sin just like the rest of us, and Peter was called out twice by Paul.
Once for disassociating with Gentile believers when Jewish believers were around, and again was held accountable for allowing the false teaching about not being straight forward about the gospel.


So finally non Peter did not lose his salvation because after Paul rebuked him he turned away from doing those wrongful actions.

You all seem to want to leave off the repenting and confessing of those sinful ways which leads to turning away from them.
Paul handled the situation properly like he said in 2 Timothy 4:2 to reprove, rebuke, and then exhort those who are acting improperly in the faith to get them to change their actions.


Did Peter keep the faith even though at times he messed up and sinned ??? Yes he did so he did not lose salvation.......

As once again the key is keeping and continuing in the faith of the Lord, it has nothing to do about the works themselves as some constantly want to falsely keep spouting off at the mouth about.

I appeal to those right now: Please get away from those false accusations you were taught to use !!!

 

[KennethC]

Those who propose to not believe in Once Saved Always Saved don't mean that they can lose their salvation.

They mean that you can lose your salvation.

When you show them the precarious situation they are in because of their (un)belief, all of a sudden they are no longer preaching a works based salvation but a Christ based Salvation.

Interesting how that works out...

Wrong Grandpa as any believer can fall away from the faith if they chose to stop putting their faith and trust in the Lord.

This does not mean we have to live by fear as some want to try and say, because we have God's word that shows us the proper way to walk in the faith so that we can have confidence and know we are saved. Apostle John gives a good teaching on this in 1 John chapters 2-4.

I do not side with osas and I do not walk in unbelief so your stance here is wrong to say that.

Lord Jesus Himself explained believing in Him in Luke 6:46-49, and said there only those who hear and do have their foundation built on Him. The hearers only that do not do, do not have their foundation built on Him and will fall to ruin. The bible over and over again shows a true saving faith in the Lord is an active one by the fruits of the Spirit.

Those who are continuously disobedient and contentious to the teachings of Jesus will not receive salvation !!!

 

[BarlyGurl]

Those who propose to not believe in Once Saved Always Saved don't mean that they can lose their salvation.

They mean that you can lose your salvation.

When you show them the precarious situation they are in because of their (un)belief, all of a sudden they are no longer preaching a works based salvation but a Christ based Salvation.

Interesting how that works out...

False Grandpa... I do not comprehend how it is people (a man friend of mine) claim to be saved for YEARS and then one day announce... "hey in case you haven't heard, I went to the Dr. and spent some money at the courthouse, I am a woman now... my name is (female name).... don't you judge me! I love Jesus, God is so Good! GRACE GRACE GRACE!"

I pursue GOD, I cannot imagine doing anything else.... and then I have the above (friend) who skips along singing "yes jesus loves me" whilst upending and shredding God's order and authoritative instructions to us... and forcing others to make a decision to accept it to maintain any relationship.

It boggles my mind. I cannot comprehend how after so many years anyone could ignore "why do you call me Lord and not do what I say?" I earnestly desire to grow closer to Christ.... and that <situation mentioned above> is going in the opposite direction.

 

[MarcR]

First off once again I am not, nor am I affliated with the Roman Catholic denomination.

Second Peter was not a pope of the Catholic church, as that church did not start tell centuries later, and the term catholic came into play in the 2nd century (101-200 AD) and was only used to describe the universal aspect that anybody no matter what race or nationality could become saved through Christ.

Third Peter was a man and could make mistakes and sin just like the rest of us, and Peter was called out twice by Paul.
Once for disassociating with Gentile believers when Jewish believers were around, and again was held accountable for allowing the false teaching about not being straight forward about the gospel.


So finally non Peter did not lose his salvation because after Paul rebuked him he turned away from doing those wrongful actions.

You all seem to want to leave off the repenting and confessing of those sinful ways which leads to turning away from them.
Paul handled the situation properly like he said in 2 Timothy 4:2 to reprove, rebuke, and then exhort those who are acting improperly in the faith to get them to change their actions.


Did Peter keep the faith even though at times he messed up and sinned ??? Yes he did so he did not lose salvation.......

As once again the key is keeping and continuing in the faith of the Lord, it has nothing to do about the works themselves as some constantly want to falsely keep spouting off at the mouth about.

I appeal to those right now: Please get away from those false accusations you were taught to use !!!

My apology to you Ken! The remark about Peter's fallibility should not have been addressed to you it was intended for a general audience.

The question about Peter's Salvation might better have been directed to the sinless perfectionists as well.

 

[dcontroversal]

Proved my point as that passage says nothing about facing God's wrath on the earth, it says will stand before Him during judgment.

Keep dreaming as there are numerous sets of verses that speak to God pouring out his wrath upon this planet and the unbelievers on the planet.....dude your a sad joke!

 

[crossnote]

First off once again I am not, nor am I affliated with the Roman Catholic denomination.

Second Peter was not a pope of the Catholic church, as that church did not start tell centuries later, and the term catholic came into play in the 2nd century (101-200 AD) and was only used to describe the universal aspect that anybody no matter what race or nationality could become saved through Christ.

Third Peter was a man and could make mistakes and sin just like the rest of us, and Peter was called out twice by Paul.
Once for disassociating with Gentile believers when Jewish believers were around, and again was held accountable for allowing the false teaching about not being straight forward about the gospel.


So finally non Peter did not lose his salvation because after Paul rebuked him he turned away from doing those wrongful actions.

You all seem to want to leave off the repenting and confessing of those sinful ways which leads to turning away from them.
Paul handled the situation properly like he said in 2 Timothy 4:2 to reprove, rebuke, and then exhort those who are acting improperly in the faith to get them to change their actions.


Did Peter keep the faith even though at times he messed up and sinned ??? Yes he did so he did not lose salvation.......

As once again the key is keeping and continuing in the faith of the Lord, it has nothing to do about the works themselves as some constantly want to falsely keep spouting off at the mouth about.

I appeal to those right now: Please get away from those false accusations you were taught to use !!!

So how much sin must a Christian commit until they have lost their salvation? Where is that line of yours?