Torah Study

[Dan_473]

how can you. if history has changed some major things.

right, so... an example of how you would do it?

 

[BarlyGurl]

Brother, early Genesis is as much truthful history as the rest of the Bible. As for there just being Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel around the time they offered sacrifices to God, who's to say there were only four people on earth? The Bible mentions that Adam had other sons and daughters. Presumably he had many of each, their names just aren't listed as they're not important to the Messiah narrative. And yes, animals would've been kept for their products (not meat, but eggs, milk, cheese, maybe yoghurt) and to provide clothing for humanity at the time. Why do you think there were no predatory animals around at this time? Adam and Eve had rebelled against God quite some time earlier.

WHERE do the commenters get that NO ONE ate meat until NOAH? What do you think Abel kept livestock for... pets? Asserting that eggs where eaten... but not meat... is a mistake... because eggs ARE MEAT.

 

[Dan_473]

We are not given any clue on how much time has elapsed before Cain slew Abel . By what they are said to be doing there is little doubt they are both adults. We know that Cain has at least one sister mature enough to marry.
I f Eve had any sets of twins, there could be as many as 30 people by now. Sacrifices might be made as often as weekl, or even dailyy. In the robust life of farming, clothing wears out quickly. Wool can also be used for blankets, sacks, and cordage.

"So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering..." to me, this sounds like sacrifice is not happening regularly...

adam is 130 when Seth is born, "Then the days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters." this sounds to me like the other sons and daughters come after seth...

is abel being fed by adam, cain, and anyone else alive by their hard work in the fields? is he swapping animal products for food? is raising animals as hard at that time as farming? if so, God's curse on the ground would actually seem more like a curse on human labor in general...

but then cain builds a city, so it sounds to me like that labor was not cursed...


when God talks to cain after abel's death, it sounds like the ground was yielding its strength to him... so maybe cain was really good at farming (not so much sweat as adam) and abel is good with animals... this would fit nicely (imo), and mean that human life wasn't so hard as one might think reading God talking to adam and eve in the garden...

 

[Dan_473]

We are not given any clue on how much time has elapsed before Cain slew Abel . By what they are said to be doing there is little doubt they are both adults. We know that Cain has at least one sister mature enough to marry.
I f Eve had any sets of twins, there could be as many as 30 people by now. Sacrifices might be made as often as weekl, or even dailyy. In the robust life of farming, clothing wears out quickly. Wool can also be used for blankets, sacks, and cordage.

so, going with the 30 people now... I'll give you the raise animals for products idea, I agree...

other questions arise for me... what are those other people sacrificing or offering?

maybe they aren't sacrificing anything... one possibility...

maybe plant things... maybe they just don't react like cain when God doesn't accept their offering...

maybe animals... then I wonder why cain wasn't upset with them, too... maybe abel was taunting him...



I do see that the story lacks a lot of details... when humans read something, they often add details they think are needed to make the story make sense... I can see I've done that...

what details one adds will affect what one 'takes away' from the story...

 

[Dan_473]

WHERE do the commenters get that NO ONE ate meat until NOAH? What do you think Abel kept livestock for... pets? Asserting that eggs where eaten... but not meat... is a mistake... because eggs ARE MEAT.

that's how I take gen 1:29 'Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the [an]surface of all the earth, and every tree [ao]which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the [ap]sky and to every thing that [aq]moves on the earth [ar]which has life, I have given every green plant for food”'

eggs = meat? I could see that, maybe... a fertilized egg would be an animal, imo...

I too had basically asked the question "What do you think Abel kept livestock for..."
the common answers on the thread are dairy products, and non-food animal like wool...


as I've said, if humans can eat dairy (and eggs?), that goes a long way towards changing how I look at the curse on the ground... and adam sweating and tilling the soil...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

WHERE do the commenters get that NO ONE ate meat until NOAH? What do you think Abel kept livestock for... pets? Asserting that eggs where eaten... but not meat... is a mistake... because eggs ARE MEAT.

in genesis 1 it says that God gave the humans and animals every green plant for food...

it is not until after the flood that there is a record in scripture of God giving people permission to eat meat...

so it sounds like they did not eat meat before the flood...although i suppose it is possible that some people might have disobediently eaten meat...

 

[Billyd]

It seems to me that the only thing that God had expressly prohibited man from eating was from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. While told man that he could eat of all other plants, I really don't see where he prohibited meat.

 

[Magenta]

It seems to me that the only thing that God had expressly prohibited man from eating was from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. While told man that he could eat of all other plants, I really don't see where he prohibited meat.

Meat was given to eat after the flood, in the Noahic Covenant.
Before that it was just vegetation given as food stuffs.

Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you.
Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
Genesis 9:3

 

[MarcR]

so, going with the 30 people now... I'll give you the raise animals for products idea, I agree...

other questions arise for me... what are those other people sacrificing or offering?

maybe they aren't sacrificing anything... one possibility...

maybe plant things... maybe they just don't react like cain when God doesn't accept their offering...

maybe animals... then I wonder why cain wasn't upset with them, too... maybe abel was taunting him...



I do see that the story lacks a lot of details... when humans read something, they often add details they think are needed to make the story make sense... I can see I've done that...

what details one adds will affect what one 'takes away' from the story...

It is my understanding that before the Law was given, sacrifices were offered by the Spiritual head of the family.

This was an informal priesthood that usually passed from the patriarch to the oldest son. This was the true significance of Esau selling his birthright.

If earth's entire population were still living together as an extended family; as seems likely, then it would be likely that Adam would offer a daily or weekly sacrifice from Abel's flock.

 

[Tintin]

WHERE do the commenters get that NO ONE ate meat until NOAH? What do you think Abel kept livestock for... pets? Asserting that eggs where eaten... but not meat... is a mistake... because eggs ARE MEAT.

Eggs are meat? Since when? Also, it's not that meat wasn't eaten until straight after the Flood, it's that God didn't allow it and so those who were followers of God would've obeyed Him.

 

[Magenta]

Eggs are meat? Since when? Also, it's not that meat wasn't eaten until straight after the Flood, it's that God didn't allow it and so those who were followers of God would've obeyed Him.

Eggs have the potential to turn into meat, but I would not call an acorn an oak tree

 

[Tintin]

true! now for me, Genesis is written in a style that matches up with hebrew culture at that time... just as the nt uses a style from greek culture...

to try to overlay modern western ideas of how history is written is, imo, not a good idea...

good point, and I was guessing about the four people... really, I was using a modern western idea of expecting the story to be told in a linear style...

if humans can eat eggs at this time, that would really go a long ways towards relaxing the curse on the ground...

are adam and cain still out there sweating in the field? seems like animal husbandry is the better choice... just grow enough for variety...

on the sixth day of creation, God says "to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"

does that change after the fall? doesn't say... humans don't start eating animals until after the flood, so I assumed the same for predators... there's something about God requiring the lifeblood of beasts in the same passage...

Modern ideas about how history is written? Please don't give me that! The unorthodox, unbiblical, liberal ideas only sprung up in Christendom around the time of uniformiarian ideals and Darwin. The Church had the stupidity to let these diseases in and ever since they've compromised the validity and authority of the Bible. Finally, through much of Church history, people believed that early Genesis was history. Now that we're more 'enlightened' (stupid) we know 'better'. But let's not go by consensus even, let's go by the words of people who really know their stuff. Who are these people? Why Jesus and His apostles and God's prophets etc! But couldn't they be wrong? No! "Did God really say?..." No.

Adam and Eve and their children for a time were farmers, but we're told that animal husbandry was invented by Lamech's son, Jabal.
Genesis 4:20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the first of those who live in tents and keep livestock.
There may have been some instances of animal husbandry prior to this, but this is the first man to advance civilization in such a way.

Animals definitely ate animals prior to the Great Flood, because fossils show them fighting, eating, digesting each other! Did God say it was 'good'? No. Did He allow it? Yes. Could humanity have eaten meat prior to the Flood? Absolutely, but not for those who were true to the one true God. I hope this helps.

 

[Tintin]

"So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering..." to me, this sounds like sacrifice is not happening regularly...

adam is 130 when Seth is born, "Then the days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters." this sounds to me like the other sons and daughters come after seth...

is abel being fed by adam, cain, and anyone else alive by their hard work in the fields? is he swapping animal products for food? is raising animals as hard at that time as farming? if so, God's curse on the ground would actually seem more like a curse on human labor in general...

but then cain builds a city, so it sounds to me like that labor was not cursed...


when God talks to cain after abel's death, it sounds like the ground was yielding its strength to him... so maybe cain was really good at farming (not so much sweat as adam) and abel is good with animals... this would fit nicely (imo), and mean that human life wasn't so hard as one might think reading God talking to adam and eve in the garden...

Sacrifices may not have been a regular thing, but it's doubtful that they were a rarity. Do you really think Adam and Eve would wait 130 years to have more children? eg. Seth and other sons and daughters? God told them to be fruitful and to multiply. They would have 'known' each other quite well, I would think.

Labour is cursed in the sense that work would be much more difficult and not always enjoyable, as it would've been before the Fall. Cain would've been good at farming and Abel good with animals, but that doesn't negate the fact that life (work, rest and play) was very different, following the Fall.

 

[Tintin]

so, going with the 30 people now... I'll give you the raise animals for products idea, I agree...

other questions arise for me... what are those other people sacrificing or offering?

maybe they aren't sacrificing anything... one possibility...

maybe plant things... maybe they just don't react like cain when God doesn't accept their offering...

maybe animals... then I wonder why cain wasn't upset with them, too... maybe abel was taunting him...



I do see that the story lacks a lot of details... when humans read something, they often add details they think are needed to make the story make sense... I can see I've done that...

what details one adds will affect what one 'takes away' from the story...

Some speculations can be inferred from the text and so they're warranted. Don't forget that the New Testament references the Book of Genesis upwards of 160 times. And sometimes those many references add additional details to what we know from Genesis.

 

[Tintin]

It seems to me that the only thing that God had expressly prohibited man from eating was from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. While told man that he could eat of all other plants, I really don't see where he prohibited meat.

Meat = animal death. There was no sin and death before the Fall.

 

[Tintin]

Eggs have the potential to turn into meat, but I would not call an acorn an oak tree

Good point, sister. A fertilized egg, yes, is on it's way to being meat. But an egg prior to fertilization isn't meat.

 

[MarcR]

Eggs have the potential to turn into meat, but I would not call an acorn an oak tree

It should be remembered that the word 'meat' is used in three distinct ways in scripture:

1) Animal flesh Gen 27:4.; Acts 27:34 KJV

2) Food in general Gen 1:29; Jn 6:27 KJV

3) grain, flour, or meal Lev 2:5 KJV [ this usage does not directly occur in the NT; but it is implied in Mark 8:8; where no word directly translates as 'meat'; but Klasmatoon (fragments), IMO, implies bread.]


Please excuse this exercise in semantics. Since early childhood, words have been my favorite toys.

 

[Dan_473]

It is my understanding that before the Law was given, sacrifices were offered by the Spiritual head of the family.

This was an informal priesthood that usually passed from the patriarch to the oldest son. This was the true significance of Esau selling his birthright.

If earth's entire population were still living together as an extended family; as seems likely, then it would be likely that Adam would offer a daily or weekly sacrifice from Abel's flock.

well, the story doesn't have too many details...

so yes, maybe adam was offering sacrifices...

or cain and abel may have been the first...

 

[Dan_473]

in genesis 1 it says that God gave the humans and animals every green plant for food...

it is not until after the flood that there is a record in scripture of God giving people permission to eat meat...

so it sounds like they did not eat meat before the flood...although i suppose it is possible that some people might have disobediently eaten meat...

I've wondered if the 'I have given you' is a command that could be broken,

or does it mean that animals were, say, poisonous at this time...

(oddly, today, most parts of most animals are edible, while just some parts of some plants...)

 

[BarlyGurl]

Good point, sister. A fertilized egg, yes, is on it's way to being meat. But an egg prior to fertilization isn't meat.

UM WRONG! That was a clever thinking of magenta about the acorn and oak comparison. It DOES NOT APPLY... an egg is MEAT... it is not dairy, it is not vegetable or fruit.... IT IS MEAT! Now I am sorry if there are some readers who are having their dietary regimen challenged but eggs ARE MEAT. Irrespective whether they are fertilized or NOT.

If you are really having trouble with this idea... please take some time to THINK about it very carefully and prayerfully.