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M
If you look carefully at the verses Joint-Heir they do indeed speak of the same event. Heres what they have in common:
1. We are changed
2. dead rise
3. trumpet sounds
1 Cor 15
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thes 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1. We are changed
2. dead rise
3. trumpet sounds
1 Cor 15
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thes 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
even Samuel Tregelles (1813 - 1875) saw the ridiculousness of pre-trib, and he himself was part of the Plymouth Brethren, the same group that invented this teaching... it's a good thing he finally got out of it.
http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/tregelles/The_Hope/the_hope.htm
http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/tregelles/The_Hope/the_hope.htm
H
You know the pretribes teach basicaly two different coming of Christ, One when the people are raptured and the next after the end off the tribulation to get the second group. Its no wander most pre-tribs are more liberal. Hey if you don't make it the first time you still got another chance.
The Bible I have says there will be one second coming of Christ But I know there are many versions of the Bible. I like to stick with the KJV which I believe is the Bible that God has preserved for us; but thats a whole nother subject.
The Bible I have says there will be one second coming of Christ But I know there are many versions of the Bible. I like to stick with the KJV which I believe is the Bible that God has preserved for us; but thats a whole nother subject.
M
Good job Humble, we have to be so careful because satan himself with the fallen angels are coming first claiming to be Christ. He will deceive many Christians. We are to remain spiritual virgins while a great deal of the world will partake in a unholy wedding. they are preparing a temple this very day and satan will be there claiming to be God and make miracles and fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE MIS-QUOTING ME
AS
YOU SEEM TO BE IN THE HABIT OF ALSO
MIS-QUOTING SCRIPTURE
WHAT I SAID
TO BE SPECIFIC
WAS THAT PAUL
BEING A LAWYER AND BRILLIANT
WOULD HAVE CLARIFIED
HAD BOTH OF THESE EVENTS WERE THE SAME
HE WOULD HAVE
WRITTEN
LAST TRUMP IN BOTH VERSES
FOR IN FACT
AS YOU READ MANY OF PAULS WRITINGS
HE IS SPECIFIC IN MANY THINGS
HE WANTS TO MAKE A POINT TO THAT ARE SIMILAR
AND HE WRITES THEM
EXACTLY AS HE WROTE THEM IN THE FIRST TIME HE WROTE ABOUT IT
BUT
IN THESE 2 VERSES
HE DID NOT
WRITE LAST TRUMP IN BOTH OF THEM
ONLY ONE
AND YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY?
SINCE THIS IS BECOMING LIKE A KINDERGARTEN CLASS WITH YOU
BECAUSE
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME
THEY ARE IN FACT 2 DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS
IF THEY HAD BEEN THE SAME
THEN
PAUL
WOULD HAVE WRITTEN IN
LAST TRUMP IN BOTH SCRIPTURES
BUT AS WE SEE
WHICH IS CLEARLY OBVIOUS
YOU LACK
UNDERSTANDING
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You can't make an argument based upon what you think Paul would have or should have written. You can only use what is already written.
There is only one trumpet, the one Jesus spoke about in Mat 24:31.
Mat 24:31 confirms that the last trump and the singular trump in the other verse are the same thing.
There is only one trumpet, the one Jesus spoke about in Mat 24:31.
Mat 24:31 confirms that the last trump and the singular trump in the other verse are the same thing.
PS. In fact after reading a few commentaries about it, Barnes who was an olden days protestant theologian says that the last trump does not mean that any trumps went before it, but that it is the "end times trumpet".
At the last trump - When the trumpet shall sound to raise the dead. The word "last" here does not imply that any trumpet shall have been before sounded at the resurrection, but is a word denoting that this is the consummation or close of things; it will end the economy of this world; it will be connected with the last state of things.
At the last trump - When the trumpet shall sound to raise the dead. The word "last" here does not imply that any trumpet shall have been before sounded at the resurrection, but is a word denoting that this is the consummation or close of things; it will end the economy of this world; it will be connected with the last state of things.
I AM NOT SPECULATING ANYTHING ABOUT PAUL
BUT
IF YOU READ PAULS LETTERS
OVER AND OVER AND OVER
THERE IS A CONSISTENT FLOW AND ACTUALITY
FOR
HE WILL PROVE THEN REPROVE HIMSELF CONSISTANTLY
TIME AND TIME AGAIN
HE DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES OR ERRORS
HE IS BLUNT
AND SPECIFIC
WHEN POINTING OUT A FACT HE HAS MENTIONED IN PREVIOUS WRITNGS
AND THE FACT
HE SAID TRUMP IN ONE VERSE
AND LAST TRUMP IN ANOTHER
IS SPECIFIC
I RESPECT YOUR EXAMPLE BY BARNES
BUT
REVELATION
MENTIONS
7 TRUMPS
AND AFTER EACH TRUMP IS INTRODUCE
IT GOES ONTO REVEAL A COURSE OF ACTION
SO
IT IS SAFE TO BELIEVE
BARNES WAS WRONG
You are sir, you are saying that Paul "would have" done this or that. When you do not know the mind of Paul when he wrote it.
If we look at the teachings of Jesus alone..there is only one trump.
Mat 24:30AndthenshallappearthesignoftheSonof maninheaven:andthenshallallthetribesoftheearthmourn,andtheyshallseetheSonofmancominginthecloudsofheavenwithpowerandgreatglory.
Mat 24:31Andheshallsendhisangelswithagreat sound of a trumpet,andtheyshallgather togetherhiselectfromthefourwinds,fromone endofheaventotheother.
Can you count how many trumpets are mentioned in Matthew 24? Only one. And that's out of the mouth of Christ Himself.
A question to ask yourself..do you follow Christ or Paul?
Paul cannot contradict Jesus...therefore Paul must have only been referring to one trump as well. Paul held to the teachings of Matthew 24 as well.. so there can be no contradiction. The only belief that does not contradict between Matthew 24 and Paul's writings - is that there is only one trump, and this being the "last trump"..meaning the trump that signals the end.
If we look at the teachings of Jesus alone..there is only one trump.
Mat 24:30AndthenshallappearthesignoftheSonof maninheaven:andthenshallallthetribesoftheearthmourn,andtheyshallseetheSonofmancominginthecloudsofheavenwithpowerandgreatglory.
Mat 24:31Andheshallsendhisangelswithagreat sound of a trumpet,andtheyshallgather togetherhiselectfromthefourwinds,fromone endofheaventotheother.
Can you count how many trumpets are mentioned in Matthew 24? Only one. And that's out of the mouth of Christ Himself.
A question to ask yourself..do you follow Christ or Paul?
Paul cannot contradict Jesus...therefore Paul must have only been referring to one trump as well. Paul held to the teachings of Matthew 24 as well.. so there can be no contradiction. The only belief that does not contradict between Matthew 24 and Paul's writings - is that there is only one trump, and this being the "last trump"..meaning the trump that signals the end.
TO READ AND PAY ATTENTION TO PAUL
IS
FOLLOWING CHRIST
FOR
PAUL
WROTE 2/3 OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
JESUS CHRIST IS MY GOD
BUT
PAULS WRITINGS AS WELL AS THE OTHERS
ARE MY
ROAD MAP
AND
MATTHEW 24:31 AS YOU LISTED
IS ABOUT
PREPARING FOR WAR
AND
ARMAGEDDON
COME ONE MAN
ACT LIKE YOU KNOW SOMETHING
TO HAVE AN OPINION
ATLEAST
BE SOME WHAT
ACCURATE
IN THE POINT
YOU ARE STRUGGLING
TO MAKE
The difference is Joint-heir...that you are following Paul at the expense of Christ...I am not. In other words.. you are rejecting Matthew 24, which is plain as day only gives 1 trumpet.. but you allege that Paul said there were TWO? Given that Jesus said there is one trumpet... I can only conclude that Paul believed the same. You tell me which verses are more important? Matthew 24 which are recorded words of Christ out of his own mouth? Or your claim that Paul wrote things the way he did?
That 1 trump Jesus spoke of , is the same 1 trump that Paul mentioned in two places.
Notice that there is no rapture trumpet in Revelation. All the trumps are to do with judgement, pouring out God's wrath. The first trumpet is not a rapture trumpet, it is hail and fire.. the tribulation has well and truly begun after the first trumpet..
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
So with your view.. the trump of Paul's, contradicts the trumpets of Revelation too.
Notice that there is no rapture trumpet in Revelation. All the trumps are to do with judgement, pouring out God's wrath. The first trumpet is not a rapture trumpet, it is hail and fire.. the tribulation has well and truly begun after the first trumpet..
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
So with your view.. the trump of Paul's, contradicts the trumpets of Revelation too.