If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[dcontroversal]

I don't know where you have been because OSAS is almost just as big as Catholicsim, as almost all denominations have been affected with Calvinism in one way or another.

The 1980's a bunch of main stream and local churches around the country banded together to try and shut down this false Calvinist doctrine. They were only successful at slowly it down for a time, but now it is so mainstream again and those of the doctrine try to deny Calvin was the one who started it.

I suggest both you are your pal Jason face the facts.....almost all religions that name Jesus preach a works for salvation doctrine and one that can be lost.....they almost all teach some form of religious dogma like church membership, immersion, slain in the spirit, sacraments, blah blah blah...even you teach some form of working for and maintaining salvation based upon what you do....and anyone who states that we teach a live in sin doctrine is a LIAR.......! A bunch of mainstream churches you say tried to shut it down hey...well let me tell you...you guys and your hellish dogma that you spew and spread will not stop the march of the truth....Eternal security is biblical and those who teach it teach the truth...maybe you should start receiving the verbs tenses, verses in context and the very inspired words that teach eternal security before your false gospel takes you to the pit!

 

[notuptome]

Reproved to do what? Evil or good?

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

Rather than destroy them God reconciled them.

Mercy and grace. Forgiveness in place of condemnation.

We can never escape our need of God. Without Him we perish.

Two thieves on the crosses either side of Jesus. One sought mercy the other sought manipulation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The thief on the cross could not have lived out his life and show his faith. So he is not really example of Sanctification (Continued Salvation) but Justification (Initial Salvation). The thief who was wrong did not believe. That is not the case with a true believer who repents of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and then obeys His Commands according to His Word within the New Testament.

 

[notuptome]

The thief on the cross could not have lived out his life and show his faith. So he is not really example of Sanctification (Continued Salvation) but Justification (Initial Salvation). The thief who was wrong did not believe. That is not the case with a true believer who repents of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and then obeys His Commands according to His Word within the New Testament.

You simply have a talent for missing the obvious truth.

One sought mercy from the Lord and was saved the other attempted to manipulate the Lord and remained lost.

Saved or lost no in between. Forgiven or condemned are the only options.

Accept the hopelessness of your situation and seek the mercy and grace of God or perish in your own righteousness which is not righteous in Gods eyes.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Gifts come with responsibilities. A car can be a gift, but it requires maintainence. God can give a man a woman as a gift, but again, it takes work in building that relationship. Just like it does with God.

But if you were to continue to keep reading.... Matthew 7, it refutes what you belief in several ways.

#1. Jesus says you will know false prophets by their fruit: He then says a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit and will be cut down and thrown in the fire. This is speaking of deeds.

#2. Jesus says to those false believers to depart from him because they worked iniquity; Iniquity is sin.

#3. Jesus says in the end of Matthew 7 says that if any man does not what He says is like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand and great was the fall of it when the storm came.

#4. Jesus likens that person who does what he says as being a wise man who built his house upon the rock that endures the storm.

 

[Jason0047]

You simply have a talent for missing the obvious truth.

One sought mercy from the Lord and was saved the other attempted to manipulate the Lord and remained lost.

Saved or lost no in between. Forgiven or condemned are the only options.

Accept the hopelessness of your situation and seek the mercy and grace of God or perish in your own righteousness which is not righteous in Gods eyes.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well, I repent of my sins if sin arises in my life. I do not trust in my deeds to save me. Works Salvationism is false. Christ (God) does the "good work" within me. So I am not claiming to manipulate anything. Good fruit results because God lives within a person. It is the result or proof that they have been saved. No fruit means they don't have God in their life. No LORD living within them means they are not saved.

But again, you are trying to compare somebody who accepted the Lord shortly before they died with being the same as somebody living out their faith for many many years. They are not the same thing. Yes, both are saved by God's grace and mercy, but the difference is that the LORD works in the believer in many different ways (if they do live for a long time). This is not the case with a believer who accepts Christ on their death bed. Why? Because the believer who accepted Christ on their death bed is not able to live out their faith.

 

[Jason0047]

Question #1. Can you be out of fellowship and still be saved?
(If you say "yes", then how is that not a condoning of sin?

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 certainly proves biblical that it can be, when it is related to "the rest of the story" in 2 Corinthians 2:2-7. You don't appear to be able to grasp that nothing you do is sufficient to earn your salvation, or maintain it. You are still flesh, and the flesh is sinful, and will not go to heaven. As long as you live in the flesh, you awaken to every day facing a choice of death or life -- the death of the flesh, or the life of the Spirit, Who (presumably) abides in you as a believer.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates God revives the "old man." Instead you are a new (spiritual) creation. Hence, the choice. The new spiritual self does not sin. It is incapable of it. When you live in the Spirit of life, you are perfect. But we never live there nonstop. We revert to living in our "death of the flesh," and the body is already condemned. But not the soul, which is sanctified by its union with the Spirit through the human spirit.

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that your body is condemned if you sin and yet your soul is not condemned. Actually, here is what the Bible says about the soul that sins.

Ezekiel 18:4
"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die"

As for 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 and 2 Corinthians 2:2-7: Well, this is not news to me. I am aware of that the man who committed fornication in the church and who was kicked out repented of his sins and was then accepted back over his Godly sorrow of the situation. For if you were to keep reading, it says in 2 Corinthians 7:10...

"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

Okay, so if you do not have Godly sorrow (which works repentance unto salvation), then you do not have salvation. One has to be sorrowful over their sin. That's the condition that leads to repentance and then salvation. For who was Paul talking to here in verse 10? The church obviously. He was not writing to unbelievers. That would not make any sense.
But listen carefully to the second half of verse 10. What does it say? It says the sorrow of the world works death. Now, do you think it is possible for a believer to slip up and have the wrong kind of sorrow? Well, if you believe that believers can sin I would say that would be a .... "yes." And that means.... that if they work worldly sorrow.... it leads to death.

Hebrews 4, NASB
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.​

This is talking about being born of water which is by washing of the water of Word (See Ephesians 5:25-26 with a special focus on verse 26). The Word of God cuts away their old spirit from their soul and they crucified the old man in Christ (Romans 6:6) whereby they then receive a new spirit and a new heart from God. This is a renewal process; And it is the regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5). Then God lives within them and He causes that person to keep His Laws and statutes (See Ezekiel 36:26-27). Granted, this would be the Commands (Laws) in the New Testament and not the Old Testament seeing the Old Law has passed away. For the Scriptures say that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

The word of God, interpreted through the Holy Spirit, literally frees the soul from its bondage to sin and death, exposing it to the law of Spirit and life. Thus, what the flesh does is not able to severe the work of Christ from the life of the believer. To be sure, sin has consequences even for the believer, in this life. But nothing can snatch the believer from the hands of Christ, or the Father. Not even the believer him/herself.

Did you just make this up? Gonna need a verse that actually tells us this. Don't really see that in Scripture. Anyways,

Actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

However, you did not really answer my question. You never really explained to me how it is okay to be out of fellowship (no doubt because of sin) and still be saved. How exactly is that not a license to sin or God approving of your evil? How is it a good and moral thing for God to let you sin and still be saved?

As for your other questions, I will have to answer them later.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Uh, they say they believe in OSAS. That makes them an OSAS Proponent; And from many years of talking to OSAS Proponents, they all express varying degrees of what OSAS means to them.

You're really good at ignoring what is actually said, while understanding that which is not said.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

As for those who have a reading problem, but they have access to audio readings of the Bible are without excuse. But to whom much is given much is required; And the reverse of that is also true.

Much is given, much is required is referring to gifts, as in spiritual gifts, not material things of this world. But I'm sure you have a disagreement here also, since you disagree with virtually everyone's interpretation of scripture.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Your kidding right? Are you that far gone off the deep end that you do not know right from wrong? Tell me. What is the difference between a child of God and a Satanist? If being righteous is a mere belief alone in Jesus, then how can you can tell the Satanist and the Christian apart?

No, but you are -- right?

 

[WoundedWarrior]

There is no such thing as trolls. There are only people and God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. We are told to pray and have love towards our enemies. We are not to call them trolls even if it is a popular internet term (that you think applies). For James says if you do not bridle your tongue, your religion is in vain.

I don't consider you to be my enemy -- merely a troll.
Enemies, I keep much closer than friends -- trolls, however, I keep much further away.

For,
[h=3]Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV [/h]There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

 

[dcontroversal]

No, but you are -- right?

His ability to logically reason is non-existent.......A Satanist does not confess Jesus as Lord and Savior by faith......a 5 year old in a Sunday school class would know the difference!

 

[KennethC]

Again Kenneth

OSAS does not equal Calvinism

Calvinism- in its fullest sense.. has salvation foreordained for only those who God knew in advance WILL do good works.

This is the Perseverance of the Saints teaching.

They may be secure in their salvation.. can't be lossed.. but that is only for those who have a pattern of good works that God selected in advance!

It is still works based!

Why is it always either Calvinism or Armenianism?

There are a whole lot of people who believe in OSAS who deny Calvinism on almost all points!

Churches I am from teach OSAS..but reject calvinism. Why? Because OSAS was taught straight from the bible way before John Calvin put together his systematic theology or whatever it is called.

Now I won't say the calvinist isn't saved.. I also want say the armenian isn't saved.. because part of believing in OSAS means that when God works in a person's heart to convert them.. they are then converted! What happens after that.. isn't dependent on the salvation in the first place!

Ah... why do I keep going in response with these threads? (Sigh)

Oh well.

Well what you are going by is the new age teaching of Calvinism, but the original doctrine of OSAS was adopted from Calvin by Augustine's eternal security doctrine that was started in the 4th century. As both concepts where not taught in the early church for the first couple of centuries.

Both Augustine and Calvin stated that falling away from the faith was impossible, but the bible has multiple scriptures that show exactly that can and does happen. Augustine went a bet further that Calvin did not adopt and that was apostasy of the Church, as Augustine said this was impossible also but Calvin did not.

It is the new age version of OSAS that denies they have any ties to the Calvinist doctrine, but the actually reality is that doctrine or standard was not taught in the church tell the 4th century from Augustine but was not even called once saved always saved tell Calvin.

Apostle Paul constantly says only those who continue in the faith, not once you have made a one time profession of faith you are fine from here on out. The bible does not even teach that and those who instruct on the continuing in the faith and show as the bible shows that a true faith is an active faith are not teaching a works by salvation gospel.

We are instructing that those works are proof of one who is truly saved.

For those who are truly saved through Christ "will not" act and continue to walk as the rest of the sinful world.
They will turn away from those things and their actions will be guided by the fruits of the Spirit, and this is how we will know the saved from the unsaved by how they act, speak, and treat others.

 

[KennethC]

I suggest both you are your pal Jason face the facts.....almost all religions that name Jesus preach a works for salvation doctrine and one that can be lost.....they almost all teach some form of religious dogma like church membership, immersion, slain in the spirit, sacraments, blah blah blah...even you teach some form of working for and maintaining salvation based upon what you do....and anyone who states that we teach a live in sin doctrine is a LIAR.......! A bunch of mainstream churches you say tried to shut it down hey...well let me tell you...you guys and your hellish dogma that you spew and spread will not stop the march of the truth....Eternal security is biblical and those who teach it teach the truth...maybe you should start receiving the verbs tenses, verses in context and the very inspired words that teach eternal security before your false gospel takes you to the pit!

Well I have never made that statement nor have I ever said we have to earn salvation by works, or works maintain salvation like you constantly accuse me of. So does that make you a liar and false accuser of the brethren ?

Yes it does, when you make false accusations and statements on a person that they have never said.
I have even constantly asked you to please stop and you still keep making those false accusations and telling those lies on me.

I have been around many churches and have talked to many people from different denominational backgrounds, and even on here we have multiple denominational backgrounds. The majority do not teach a works based salvation as can clearly be seen on here by the majority of you who are OSASers on here who try your hardest to do away with Luke 6:46-49 and Matthew 25 from the Lord of a true faith is one who comes to Him, hears what He says, and then goes and does it !!!


You and your doctrine are the one who has a condemning attitude toward others, not me or the doctrine of the Word of God that I follow. The bible commands us to love, show mercy, forgive others, and to edify one another.

Not to beat down others with unedifying words and sarcastic attitudes.

Eternal security is not biblical as falling away from the faith is expressed in to many places from Jesus, Paul, and James. It was started by Augustine in the 4th century along with his many other teachings that are contradictory to the bible. If eternal security was true then falling away and apostasy would both not be possible as Augustine stated, but the bible says in multiple places they both do and will happen.

Apostasy is the abandonment of following the true doctrine of Christ to going after false teachings, and Paul shows this in 1 Timothy 4.

I will continue to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit over men who try to over complicate the word of God and flip-flop verses to make them say something they don't.


In your teachings Dcon did they ever teach you on the Great Commission ???

 

[dcontroversal]

Well I have never made that statement nor have I ever said we have to earn salvation by works, or works maintain salvation like you constantly accuse me of. So does that make you a liar and false accuser of the brethren ?

Yes it does, when you make false accusations and statements on a person that they have never said.
I have even constantly asked you to please stop and you still keep making those false accusations and telling those lies on me.

I have been around many churches and have talked to many people from different denominational backgrounds, and even on here we have multiple denominational backgrounds. The majority do not teach a works based salvation as can clearly be seen on here by the majority of you who are OSASers on here who try your hardest to do away with Luke 6:46-49 and Matthew 25 from the Lord of a true faith is one who comes to Him, hears what He says, and then goes and does it !!!


You and your doctrine are the one who has a condemning attitude toward others, not me or the doctrine of the Word of God that I follow. The bible commands us to love, show mercy, forgive others, and to edify one another.

Not to beat down others with unedifying words and sarcastic attitudes.

Eternal security is not biblical as falling away from the faith is expressed in to many places from Jesus, Paul, and James. It was started by Augustine in the 4th century along with his many other teachings that are contradictory to the bible. If eternal security was true then falling away and apostasy would both not be possible as Augustine stated, but the bible says in multiple places they both do and will happen.

Apostasy is the abandonment of following the true doctrine of Christ to going after false teachings, and Paul shows this in 1 Timothy 4.

I will continue to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit over men who try to over complicate the word of God and flip-flop verses to make them say something they don't.


In your teachings Dcon did they ever teach you on the Great Commission ???

Kenneth, your record is clear to all...you reject verb tenses that prove your are in error, your reject simple scriptural truths that prove you are in error, your reject context that proves you are in error..you reject MANY who know way more than you do that prove you are in error and your reject the very definitions of the words that prove you are in error so keep spewing a gospel that states if you don't CONTINUE in works and doing for the Lord then one will lose salvation...THAT is a works based gospel as many HAVE TOLD YOU THIS IS HOW you come across...the bible teaches ETERNAL SECURITY and I have come along many times to see you mouthing me behind my back so.......grow up and keep believing that you are earning your way by the things you do and say.....I will gladly wait for you to brag and boast of all you have done for the Lord in the day of your judgment!....to no avail because you never trusted fully into Christ to begin with!

 

[elf3]

A better name for this thread would have been "once lost always lost" or "only perfect sinless people can enter heaven". All you preach when preaching against OSAS is condemnation. Did God just exile me to hell when I said "Damn it!" when I dropped 5 wrenches on my foot tonight at work? Or maybe I am not saved because I said that? Or maybe just maybe I am truly saved but just "slipped up" a word in frustration. Your perfect and sinless? Yeah tell me another lie.

 

[KennethC]

Kenneth, your record is clear to all...you reject verb tenses that prove your are in error, your reject simple scriptural truths that prove you are in error, your reject context that proves you are in error..you reject MANY who know way more than you do that prove you are in error and your reject the very definitions of the words that prove you are in error so keep spewing a gospel that states if you don't CONTINUE in works and doing for the Lord then one will lose salvation...THAT is a works based gospel as many HAVE TOLD YOU THIS IS HOW you come across...the bible teaches ETERNAL SECURITY and I have come along many times to see you mouthing me behind my back so.......grow up and keep believing that you are earning your way by the things you do and say.....I will gladly wait for you to brag and boast of all you have done for the Lord in the day of your judgment!....to no avail because you never trusted fully into Christ to begin with!

You are right I reject your version of interpretation because it does not align with the scriptures.
Your doctrine pits the teachings and words of the Lord Jesus against the teachings and words of Apostle Paul's, but you refuse to see this even though me and others have shown you clearly how they contradict by how you have been taught.

I have never condemned you nor made unedifying sarcastic remarks to you as you constantly do to me and others, showing you still have areas you need to pray on and let the Holy Spirit help you to correct you in those areas. Let the Holy Spirit instruct and guide you on how to be more loving and edifying in your responses !!!

The things that you call scriptural truths are only based on your understanding as you have been taught to pull scriptures out of the bible and make them stand alone. That is faulty usage of scripture !!!

If you claim to be so knowledgeable in the word why do you use very little of the Sword of God ???

I do not brag and boast about my works as you have never seen me do that on here, so your faulty argument still is at an all time high. You need to stop passing false allegations on others as you will have to answer to God for doing that to others, as you do not know my heart.

I fully trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, which is why I will not let you or anybody else take away from His word to claim and teach a gospel of disobedience. You can debate with me all you want on obedience in the faith, but the bible clearly says in Luke 12 and Hebrews 3-4 that those who claim to be in Christ but are disobedient to His teachings and commands will not get eternal life !!!

 

[flob]

a gospel of disobedience.

?
What abyss is that from?

clearly says in Luke 12 and Hebrews 3-4 that those who claim to be in Christ but are disobedient to His teachings and commands will not get eternal life !!!

What is eternal life Kenneth?

 

[KennethC]

A better name for this thread would have been "once lost always lost" or "only perfect sinless people can enter heaven". All you preach when preaching against OSAS is condemnation. Did God just exile me to hell when I said "Damn it!" when I dropped 5 wrenches on my foot tonight at work? Or maybe I am not saved because I said that? Or maybe just maybe I am truly saved but just "slipped up" a word in frustration. Your perfect and sinless? Yeah tell me another lie.

First and once again I do not agree with the sinless perfection gospel, so again that is a false statement applied on me....Please stop !!!

Second I do not preach condemnation nor do I ever use that word, for what I do is used the word of God (Sword) to show others how the bible clearly and truthfully says how a born again believer will act and live like.

When another is says Jesus is their Lord but they are either walking or acting improperly by the faith, and another uses the scriptures to show them they are acting wrongfully that is called reproving and rebuking them. Then by keep showing them the proper way to walk along with it is called exhorting them into the proper teachings.

People need to learn how to discern between judging and rebuking, and from reproving and condemning.

Those who flat out make condemning statements with no edifying to follow is being judgmental, but those who are using the scriptures (Sword) in all three processes reprove, rebuke, and exhort are not being condemning or judgmental.

Apostle Paul constantly when he came acrossed a member/s of the brethren walking improperly/sinning he called them out on their sinful ways. He did not sit back and say it is okay it will work itself out, no he told them they needed to stop committing those sins and if they did not warned them where it would lead.

 

[elf3]

Aww snap! I just accidentally deleted my post! Grrr I hate these computer things that are supposed to make life "easier".