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B
Good post...
SO WHAT IS THE SOLUTION FOR THE PROBLEM!!!!!! I am so T_I_R_E_D of reading these arguments... when I want to be EFFECTIVE at being about my father's business.
It is looks like all anybody wants to do is "MAKE THEIR POINT", rack up some "likes" and continue squabbling.
My bible reads, "God desires non should perish"... people are perishing... I CARE ABOUT THAT!!!!!
So God help us... sort out the solutions to the problem via the scriptures. Amen
SO WHAT IS THE SOLUTION FOR THE PROBLEM!!!!!! I am so T_I_R_E_D of reading these arguments... when I want to be EFFECTIVE at being about my father's business.
It is looks like all anybody wants to do is "MAKE THEIR POINT", rack up some "likes" and continue squabbling.
My bible reads, "God desires non should perish"... people are perishing... I CARE ABOUT THAT!!!!!
So God help us... sort out the solutions to the problem via the scriptures. Amen
J
I’m kind of a lightning rod for either criticism or the silent treatment, but I put in a plug for christian obedience anyway. I think what Ken and Jason have been saying is needed. What they’re saying is what the churches basically taught in the 1950’s and before.
Throughout the bible, obedience to God’s words has always been taught, but the sinful nature of man has always tried to make excuses for disobedience. The modern church has used words like grace, love, mercy, peace, etc. – almost like recorded tranquilizers. Besides resulting in many falling away, -- counterfeit teachers can use the Joel Osteen type of positive thinking (“all is well and good”) to infiltrate, and call teachers like K- and J- pharisees.
OTOH, strict teachers of obedience can also be con artists, like Elmer Gantry (Sinclair Lewis’ composite of circuit riders in the early 1900’s). If anything, deception (combined with crisis) might be the main underlying cause of many falling away. Jesus (and his disciples) warned of deception: (Matthew 24:24)
[SUP]24[/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
And the apostle Paul: (Acts 20:28-31)
So constructive teaching on salvation like K- and J- have done in the face of adversity, might be a blessing. At another forum, the Lord seems to have led Sue, Dottie and JonMarie to give good bible teaching.
Throughout the bible, obedience to God’s words has always been taught, but the sinful nature of man has always tried to make excuses for disobedience. The modern church has used words like grace, love, mercy, peace, etc. – almost like recorded tranquilizers. Besides resulting in many falling away, -- counterfeit teachers can use the Joel Osteen type of positive thinking (“all is well and good”) to infiltrate, and call teachers like K- and J- pharisees.
OTOH, strict teachers of obedience can also be con artists, like Elmer Gantry (Sinclair Lewis’ composite of circuit riders in the early 1900’s). If anything, deception (combined with crisis) might be the main underlying cause of many falling away. Jesus (and his disciples) warned of deception: (Matthew 24:24)
[SUP]24[/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
And the apostle Paul: (Acts 20:28-31)
So constructive teaching on salvation like K- and J- have done in the face of adversity, might be a blessing. At another forum, the Lord seems to have led Sue, Dottie and JonMarie to give good bible teaching.
I am not disagreeing with you..
What I was meaning is addressing the 'OSAS is a license to sin' saying from so many.
What I was saying is when someone rescues you from death..then you would most probably be thankful back.
Saying it is a 'license to sin' is thinking carnally. .and I am saying that once someone is saved.. there will be fruit from that salvation.
They still can think carnally.. but it's not like they straight away go and just rebel straight after conversion. Like being rescued from drowning and then not saying thank you to the rescuer.
So I do think believers still struggle with the fleshly, carnal nature. I am just countering the notion that OSAS is a license to sin.
But the other thing is: I don't think its really biblical teaching to say a person who is saved will serve God. That is kind of works based as well.
There will be fruit from being saved.. but that doesn't mean they will be faithful continuously there whole life.
'He who endureth to the end will be saved'.. is used to say that the saved will persevere till the end.. but that I taking that verse out of context.
The above quote is surrounded by verses that talk about rescue from trials and harsh times.. not eternal deliverance.
What I was meaning is addressing the 'OSAS is a license to sin' saying from so many.
What I was saying is when someone rescues you from death..then you would most probably be thankful back.
Saying it is a 'license to sin' is thinking carnally. .and I am saying that once someone is saved.. there will be fruit from that salvation.
They still can think carnally.. but it's not like they straight away go and just rebel straight after conversion. Like being rescued from drowning and then not saying thank you to the rescuer.
So I do think believers still struggle with the fleshly, carnal nature. I am just countering the notion that OSAS is a license to sin.
But the other thing is: I don't think its really biblical teaching to say a person who is saved will serve God. That is kind of works based as well.
There will be fruit from being saved.. but that doesn't mean they will be faithful continuously there whole life.
'He who endureth to the end will be saved'.. is used to say that the saved will persevere till the end.. but that I taking that verse out of context.
The above quote is surrounded by verses that talk about rescue from trials and harsh times.. not eternal deliverance.
For the millionth time.. OSAS is not the dominant teaching in christianity!
The doctrine that salvation can be lossed comes mainly from Pentecostal.. Charismatic.. and they are the now the majority!
Maybe in your particular area they are not.. but consider that most reformed churches eg.. Methodist, Anglican.. Lutheran.. etc.. are going liberal and charismatic.. and the likes of ones that already are such as Pentecostal and charismatic are on the increase with youth wanting emotional experiences in worship.
There may be an increase also in Calvinism..but that is not really OSAS. For calvinism It is only OSAS for people who are doing good works anyway! (The saints will persevere teaching).
OSAS teaching is the M I N O R I T Y !
The doctrine that salvation can be lossed comes mainly from Pentecostal.. Charismatic.. and they are the now the majority!
Maybe in your particular area they are not.. but consider that most reformed churches eg.. Methodist, Anglican.. Lutheran.. etc.. are going liberal and charismatic.. and the likes of ones that already are such as Pentecostal and charismatic are on the increase with youth wanting emotional experiences in worship.
There may be an increase also in Calvinism..but that is not really OSAS. For calvinism It is only OSAS for people who are doing good works anyway! (The saints will persevere teaching).
OSAS teaching is the M I N O R I T Y !
Two things:
1) The context of your quote--Peter is writing to believers about believers, combating the false doctrine of scoffers which denied the second coming of Christ. He reminds the believers that Jesus is not slow in coming, but patient, waiting for all the elect to come to faith before he drops the curtain of time because he does not want to any of them to perish in unbelief.
2) The solution to the problem is faith, which is a gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).
1) The context of your quote--Peter is writing to believers about believers, combating the false doctrine of scoffers which denied the second coming of Christ. He reminds the believers that Jesus is not slow in coming, but patient, waiting for all the elect to come to faith before he drops the curtain of time because he does not want to any of them to perish in unbelief.
2) The solution to the problem is faith, which is a gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).
That passage in early Romans is differentiating between a true born again christian...he has the spirit and is therefore LED by the spirit compared to a person devoid of the spirit.
Besides that section is not the context of Romans 8:39, but this is. ..
Romans 8:18-39 (KJV)
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Besides that section is not the context of Romans 8:39, but this is. ..
Romans 8:18-39 (KJV)
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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K
This that you say is all true that we will still struggle, but what I am trying to show others is how the bible makes and shows there is a difference between one who struggles and one who deliberately keeps sinning. The bible nowhere condones or agrees that we will continue to sin daily, every day.
What the bible actually says is by the Holy Spirit HE will strengthen us in those areas we are weak to stop committing sins, as by Him we will gain self-control and have victory over sin.
There are some on here that may not say or want to speak in the since of a sin and still be saved, but to defend their stance that we will all always sin everyday is not biblically sound. For it says those who are mature in the faith are to guide those that are still struggling with sin to help them by the word turn away from it.
It does not say they will be rescued in Matthew 10, as Jesus is telling the disciples all the issues, trials, tribulations they will face when giving the word. He does not tell them He will rescue them out of them, but they would face them because He faced them first and told them when this happens to flee to another town.
Matthew 10
[SUP]16[/SUP] Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
[SUP]17[/SUP] But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
[SUP]21[/SUP] And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
[SUP]22[/SUP] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
[SUP]23[/SUP] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
It takes faith
Romans 10:13-17
king James version(KJV)
13.)For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14.)How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15.)And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16.)But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17.)So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:13-17
king James version(KJV)
13.)For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14.)How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15.)And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16.)But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17.)So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Most people who believe in a perseverance doctrine express concern that the OSAS doctrine tends to promote a license to sin; but if you examine the lives of those who believe the OSAS doctrine, you do not find us living that way.
We who accept the OSAS doctrine as true also believe that Phil 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. KJV
We do not deny that obedience is important; but we see obedience as the result of rather than the means to Salvation.
We who accept the OSAS doctrine as true also believe that Phil 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. KJV
We do not deny that obedience is important; but we see obedience as the result of rather than the means to Salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
This is Gods Business. Salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. Which isn't given because of your repentance or good works. Salvation is given as a gift.
Good works follow salvation. They are a gift.
Repentance is a gift.
Sanctification is a gift.
The Solution is simple and its truth. Come to the Lord Jesus Christ and you will receive Eternal Life.
Are there any problems that the Lord is not strong enough to handle?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
This is Gods Business. Salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. Which isn't given because of your repentance or good works. Salvation is given as a gift.
Good works follow salvation. They are a gift.
Repentance is a gift.
Sanctification is a gift.
The Solution is simple and its truth. Come to the Lord Jesus Christ and you will receive Eternal Life.
Are there any problems that the Lord is not strong enough to handle?
There are some comprehension problems, to quote your term.
The trampling of the blood of Christ doesn't come from people who are un-thankful.
The trampling of the blood of Christ comes from people who don't understand that His Blood has Cleansed them Once and for All.
They go forward and try to continue to cleanse themselves by their own work. Even calling it biblical terms such as "repentance".
Come to the Lord Jesus Christ to be Saved. Come to the Lord Jesus Christ for all of your blessings. All things that are good come from Him.
Do you value good works? They come from the Lord.
Do you value repentance? It comes from the Lord.
Do you value the fruit of the Spirit? It comes from the Lord.
Any good thing that you desire for people to do comes from the Lord Jesus Christ.
The trampling of the blood of Christ doesn't come from people who are un-thankful.
The trampling of the blood of Christ comes from people who don't understand that His Blood has Cleansed them Once and for All.
They go forward and try to continue to cleanse themselves by their own work. Even calling it biblical terms such as "repentance".
Come to the Lord Jesus Christ to be Saved. Come to the Lord Jesus Christ for all of your blessings. All things that are good come from Him.
Do you value good works? They come from the Lord.
Do you value repentance? It comes from the Lord.
Do you value the fruit of the Spirit? It comes from the Lord.
Any good thing that you desire for people to do comes from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Not the churches I had to do with !!!! They taught the grace of God and salvation through faith alone. Jason with his perfectionism is over the top. He is also continually contradictory.
But we had this odd bod writer called Paul (somewhat before the 1950s) who was so offbeat and so determined to preach grace and salvation though faith alone that people said that he taught 'let us continue in sin that grace may abound' (Rom 6.1). Some even said that he taught 'let us do evil that good may come' (Rom 3.8). See how extreme he must have been? Good job we don't have anyone around today like he was.
Well I can't speak for the USA, but that is not our problem here. Would that there were more like that who taught what Paul and Jesus taught. Here there is too much wishy washy do-goodism,
You mean Jason isn't a Pharisee? He sounds like one to me.
I think if Paul comes on here we should ban him. He clearly just misleads people. He would certainly not see Jason's teaching as constructive. More like destructive to weak saints.
But we had this odd bod writer called Paul (somewhat before the 1950s) who was so offbeat and so determined to preach grace and salvation though faith alone that people said that he taught 'let us continue in sin that grace may abound' (Rom 6.1). Some even said that he taught 'let us do evil that good may come' (Rom 3.8). See how extreme he must have been? Good job we don't have anyone around today like he was.
Well I can't speak for the USA, but that is not our problem here. Would that there were more like that who taught what Paul and Jesus taught. Here there is too much wishy washy do-goodism,
You mean Jason isn't a Pharisee? He sounds like one to me.
I think if Paul comes on here we should ban him. He clearly just misleads people. He would certainly not see Jason's teaching as constructive. More like destructive to weak saints.
B
[SUP]Rev. 21:6 [/SUP]He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
B
Um, no God has EVERYTHING handled... unfortunately there are people who are not going to like the result they get when the final "handling" comes around. I care about that, I care about the SOULS of others... I care that there are deceived people... I care that God said he desires none should perish.... I happen to think it is the twice born responsibility to love our neighbors and help them get "undeceived" and while prayer is important... so is speaking rightly.
Revelation 12:10-11
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
You have everything completely backward. What good things do you have that weren't given by God?
Ephesians 2:10 [SUP] [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Where did this faith you are "operating" come from?
You can believe that there are conditions for receiving Gods Gifts. That's what the religious try to do. The only condition I see is that we believe God Is GOOD and a rewarder of those who seek Him. Anything needful for Salvation God will provide.
Ephesians 2:10 [SUP] [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Where did this faith you are "operating" come from?
You can believe that there are conditions for receiving Gods Gifts. That's what the religious try to do. The only condition I see is that we believe God Is GOOD and a rewarder of those who seek Him. Anything needful for Salvation God will provide.