The Book of Job
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Job was righteous man or using other words a self righteous man. He was most righteous man in the land but did He know about God's grace? Based on what he actually said in book of job he did not know what grace meant because he was relying on his righteousness. So God had to show Job that not even He is perfect in front of God. And soon as Job acknowledged he did not know everything his life was restored.
So I really think book of Job is about Job learning what grace means and Job being saved by grace.
Job 40:5 Job 42:6
So I really think book of Job is about Job learning what grace means and Job being saved by grace.
Job 40:5 Job 42:6
When God's children are disobedient God steps in to discipline them and at times this can lead to death!
1Cor 11v23-32: "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this reason manyare weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."
Yahweh Shalom
1Cor 11v23-32: "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this reason manyare weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."
Yahweh Shalom
Sorry if any of this is redundant, I admit I haven't read all of the posts. Job lived before Moses, before prophets, and unless I'm mistaken before miraculous healing took place (I think they were mostly performed to attest the authority of the prophets). God was the omnipotent Creator. Because of Yeshua or Jesus we may call Him Father. People made sacrifices, but if there was affliction, they thought it was delivered by Him so why would Job ask for healing? The question shouldn't be why should a righteous person suffer so much? The greatest question is why does God care about us? In comparison to Him we are no more significant than pocket lint. That's the point! We act as if anything we do or say is going to impress God. All that separates us and dirt is the breath of God. He can do what He wants with impunity, its His right. He's the potter, we're the clay. If he decides we are a vase or a bed pan, that's that, end of story, we have no choice, we have no petition. He is feared because He is awesome and powerful, He is loved because He is merciful and kind. Life is, what it is. Whether we have wealth, looks, brains or poverty, despair and suffering, God is God. Jesus came not to make this life more pleasurable due to the favor we gain with God. Christ came to make it more bearable by giving us hope for the eternal life to come.
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L
I used to interpret those verses that way too until I learned that we are not under the old covenant of the law but under the new covenant of grace. I used to fear taking communion and even stopped taking it for a while because of fear. But as a child of God I was made righteous and my sins are taken away as far as the east is from the west. The way I was taught to fear God and communion was not correct in light of the new covenant. I realized I was really under the new covenant but lived and believed as if I was under the old covenant of the law. All my sins have been taken away and Jesus already paid for my redemption in full. No fear of God punishing me since He already did that in the body of His Son on the cross. There is no more need for another sacrifice. Jesus paid it all.
Below is some notes from one of the commentaries I have. Again, God does not kill His children. He sent Jesus to save us so we do not have to die for our sins. Praise Jesus and thank You Father.
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.Note 6 at 1Co 11:27: The Lord's Supper is symbolic, and its real power is in the fact that it keeps us in remembrance of the most basic truths of our salvation (. However, just because it is symbolic doesn't mean it is unimportant. Here, Paul described the severe effects of partaking of communion unworthily (see note 7 at this verse).
Note 7 at 1Co 11:27: There have been many interpretations of just what qualifies as "unworthily." A severe interpretation would suggest that any deed or thought in a person's life that has not been confessed and repented of would make that individual unworthy. Since the Scripture says "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Ro 14:23), very few people would ever qualify as worthy to partake of communion. Plus, this would make our relationship with the Lord in communion dependent on our performance, and this is contrary to the very act of atonement that the Lord's Supper reminds us of.
It is most likely that what makes people worthy or unworthy is whether or not they have been born again (. This would also be totally consistent with the doctrine of grace that Paul constantly preached (se). There were unbelievers among the true Christians, just as Jesus prophesied ( and this still exists today. It is a dangerous offense for an unbeliever to take the Lord's Supper
People who profess salvation through partaking of communion yet do not possess it, because true faith is not present, become guilty of the body and blood of the Lord (this verse). Those people will not be able to claim ignorance when they stand before God. The Lord's Supper clearly preaches the Gospel.
Therefore, when taking communion, the people should examine themselves to see whether or not they are in the faith (2Co 13:5). It is an individual evaluation that ministers are not authorized to make for others, but ministers should make Paul's warnings here in 1Co 11 known to others when administering communion.
Note 8 at 1Co 11:27: This warning about being "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" has caused fear in the hearts of many believers. They fear that if they aren't just right when they partake of communion, they may be damned (1Co 11:29). This is inconsistent with all of Paul's other teachings about relationship with the Lord through grace (see notes 1 and 2 at Ro 5:1,
We Christians do not partake of the Lord's Supper unworthily, even if we have sin in our lives (see note 7 at this verse). If we truly worship the Lord through communion, we have to do that in spirit and in truth (Joh 4:24), and our born-again spirits are perfect, regardless of how our flesh is . The apparent problems with this verse are removed when "unworthily" is interpreted as referring to those who are not born again (s
Paul was saying that those who are not saved yet partake of communion are professing a lie (. As Jesus said, "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth" (Joh 9:41). Judgment is easier on those who are ignorant (, but those who take communion cannot claim ignorance. If they partake of the Lord's Supper "unworthily" (i.e., not born again), those people become without excuse. They are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
Below is some notes from one of the commentaries I have. Again, God does not kill His children. He sent Jesus to save us so we do not have to die for our sins. Praise Jesus and thank You Father.
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.Note 6 at 1Co 11:27: The Lord's Supper is symbolic, and its real power is in the fact that it keeps us in remembrance of the most basic truths of our salvation (. However, just because it is symbolic doesn't mean it is unimportant. Here, Paul described the severe effects of partaking of communion unworthily (see note 7 at this verse).
Note 7 at 1Co 11:27: There have been many interpretations of just what qualifies as "unworthily." A severe interpretation would suggest that any deed or thought in a person's life that has not been confessed and repented of would make that individual unworthy. Since the Scripture says "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Ro 14:23), very few people would ever qualify as worthy to partake of communion. Plus, this would make our relationship with the Lord in communion dependent on our performance, and this is contrary to the very act of atonement that the Lord's Supper reminds us of.
It is most likely that what makes people worthy or unworthy is whether or not they have been born again (. This would also be totally consistent with the doctrine of grace that Paul constantly preached (se). There were unbelievers among the true Christians, just as Jesus prophesied ( and this still exists today. It is a dangerous offense for an unbeliever to take the Lord's Supper
People who profess salvation through partaking of communion yet do not possess it, because true faith is not present, become guilty of the body and blood of the Lord (this verse). Those people will not be able to claim ignorance when they stand before God. The Lord's Supper clearly preaches the Gospel.
Therefore, when taking communion, the people should examine themselves to see whether or not they are in the faith (2Co 13:5). It is an individual evaluation that ministers are not authorized to make for others, but ministers should make Paul's warnings here in 1Co 11 known to others when administering communion.
Note 8 at 1Co 11:27: This warning about being "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" has caused fear in the hearts of many believers. They fear that if they aren't just right when they partake of communion, they may be damned (1Co 11:29). This is inconsistent with all of Paul's other teachings about relationship with the Lord through grace (see notes 1 and 2 at Ro 5:1,
We Christians do not partake of the Lord's Supper unworthily, even if we have sin in our lives (see note 7 at this verse). If we truly worship the Lord through communion, we have to do that in spirit and in truth (Joh 4:24), and our born-again spirits are perfect, regardless of how our flesh is . The apparent problems with this verse are removed when "unworthily" is interpreted as referring to those who are not born again (s
Paul was saying that those who are not saved yet partake of communion are professing a lie (. As Jesus said, "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth" (Joh 9:41). Judgment is easier on those who are ignorant (, but those who take communion cannot claim ignorance. If they partake of the Lord's Supper "unworthily" (i.e., not born again), those people become without excuse. They are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
L
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1 Cor. 11:25
After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.Note 3 at 1Co 11:25: It is impossible to put a value on the blood of Jesus. It is the price that was paid for the redemption of the whole human race. The Apostle Peter, in his epistle, stated that silver and gold could never compare to the "precious blood of Christ" (1Pe 1:18-19). "For it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul" (Le 17:11). God has guaranteed, by covenant, never to remember our sins after we have accepted by faith that the blood of Jesus has covered them (Heb 8:12-13; 9:12, 14, 26; 10:14, and 16-19).The following is a partial list of some of the things that the blood of Jesus has accomplished on our behalf:
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1 Cor. 11:25
After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.Note 3 at 1Co 11:25: It is impossible to put a value on the blood of Jesus. It is the price that was paid for the redemption of the whole human race. The Apostle Peter, in his epistle, stated that silver and gold could never compare to the "precious blood of Christ" (1Pe 1:18-19). "For it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul" (Le 17:11). God has guaranteed, by covenant, never to remember our sins after we have accepted by faith that the blood of Jesus has covered them (Heb 8:12-13; 9:12, 14, 26; 10:14, and 16-19).The following is a partial list of some of the things that the blood of Jesus has accomplished on our behalf:
- It was the price that purchased us from the power of darkness (Ac 20:28 and Col 1:13-14).
- It justified us before God (Ro 5:9).
- It sanctified us (Heb 10:10, 14; and 13:12).
- It redeemed us (Eph 1:7 and Re 5:9).
- It brought us near to God (Eph 2:13).
- It purged our consciences (Heb 9:14).
- It provided remission and forgiveness of sins (Heb 9:22 and Eph 1:7).
- It gives us boldness to enter into the holiest (i.e., God's presence) (Heb 10:19).
- It cleanses us from all sin (1Jo 1:7 and Re 1:5).
(10) It overcomes the devil (Re 12:11).
L
So your saying if any interpretation besides the one you put up is put forward it 'mangles' that Scripture? Well, many other Christians including myself disagree and they are not mangling the Scriptures by any means. When we read God's Word with the true knowledge that He loves us and is in a grace covenant with us., all the Bible takes on new meaning. When we see God's Word through the law., the Bible makes no sense and as we read it there are tons of contradictions like "God kills His children" who He sent Jesus to save...(????????) makes no sense and as the domino effect happens, all other truths about God's love go unseen. Bringing 'law' and works to the for front of the Christian life.
F
I guess we're saying the same thing: God didn't solve Paul's problem
.
No............that was his experience from the day he got saved. The days. In Damascus. No, the thorn in the flesh was physical. In Paul's flesh. Not to his psyche. It seems like it was eyesight disability. Since---is it the same book?---he writes
'See with what large letters I've written to you.'
The Bible----or any literature (or speech for that matter)----'interprets itself' firstly by context. The immediate context. Then the rest of the context. 'Thorn in the flesh' or any other word or expression is understood by its context first before trying to create a vocabulary from the Bible in total. If you want to be specific about other 'thorn in the flesh' occasions, please do : )
God allowed Satan to touch Job's flesh. If that's what you're saying. God apparently did the same with Paul with a 'thorn' in Paul's flesh
Paul characterized it as a 'messenger of Satan.' That is not a person. That is an illness, or disability. No persons slowed Paul down. But this physical disability (like any) was a real pain. God's grace overcame it, My grace is enough for you. Three times.
God's grace is God Himself, in Paul............which is a much better goodness than mere outward healing.
Same with Job's experience. In fact.....................it's God's heart's desire
.
No............that was his experience from the day he got saved. The days. In Damascus. No, the thorn in the flesh was physical. In Paul's flesh. Not to his psyche. It seems like it was eyesight disability. Since---is it the same book?---he writes
'See with what large letters I've written to you.'
The Bible----or any literature (or speech for that matter)----'interprets itself' firstly by context. The immediate context. Then the rest of the context. 'Thorn in the flesh' or any other word or expression is understood by its context first before trying to create a vocabulary from the Bible in total. If you want to be specific about other 'thorn in the flesh' occasions, please do : )
God allowed Satan to touch Job's flesh. If that's what you're saying. God apparently did the same with Paul with a 'thorn' in Paul's flesh
Paul characterized it as a 'messenger of Satan.' That is not a person. That is an illness, or disability. No persons slowed Paul down. But this physical disability (like any) was a real pain. God's grace overcame it, My grace is enough for you. Three times.
God's grace is God Himself, in Paul............which is a much better goodness than mere outward healing.
Same with Job's experience. In fact.....................it's God's heart's desire
L
Hey Flob I'm glad you took the time to post about this. Am also glad I learned how to cut and paste!!
This Bible commentary below says it very well and it has helped me in my understanding of what Paul's thorn was about. Please read it and tell me what you think. I'm impressed you are 15 and have been studying these important issues of the Bible. But hey, I'm going to be 57 and I'm just learning about this so we all have learning to do.
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." (2 Cor. 12:7-10)
This thorn in the flesh that Paul mentioned has been used and misused by Christians to justify submitting to nearly any problem that comes along. Satan has twisted this passage of Scripture to deceive many, many people into believing that God would not heal Paul, so how can they expect to be healed? Let us examine this closely and find out exactly what Paul's thorn in the flesh was.
First of all, this "thorn" came because of the abundance of revelations Paul had received. Until a person has an abundance of revelations, similar to what Paul had, he is not going to have a "thorn." That would disqualify just about all of those who have been hiding behind Paul's thorn.
Then, verse 7 says it came lest Paul should be exalted above measure. Traditionally, that has been interpreted to say the thorn was to keep Paul humble. Therefore, God had to be the author of it, because only God would want Paul to be humble. But there is a godly way of being exalted. First Peter 5:6 says, "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time." Those who submit (humble) themselves to God will be exalted by God. Paul was not speaking of exalting himself above measure through pride, but rather, the thorn came from Satan to keep Paul from being exalted by God in the eyes of the people. Many more people would have received what Paul preached if everything was always "rosy" for him. But there was this messenger of Satan who always buffeted Paul and scared away the faint-hearted from committing themselves to Jesus, whom Paul preached.
God magnified, or exalted, Joshua in the sight of his people (Josh. 3:7). He continued to do that with the people He used on into the new covenant (Acts 5:13). So, we see that the exalting spoken of is not a negative kind but a godly kind. That just further strengthens the fact that the thorn was not God's doing.
In verse 7, right after the thorn in the flesh is mentioned, there is a phrase set off by commas which says, "The messenger of Satan to buffet me." This is an explanation of what the thorn was. It was not a thing but rather a demonic messenger. The word used as "messenger" here is always translated as angel or messenger and refers to a created being. So, Paul's thorn was literally a demon sent from Satan to buffet him. The word "buffet" means to strike repeatedly as waves would buffet the shore.
How did this demonic force continually strike Paul? Traditionally it has been taught that it was with sickness, and the thing that made many accept that is the use of the words "weakness" and "infirmity" in verses 9 and 10. Infirmity definitely does mean sickness and is used that way in 1 Timothy 5:23, but that is not the only meaning of the word. The number two definition is any lack or inadequacy. For instance, Romans 8:26 says, "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities." In this case, the context makes it clear that it is not speaking of sicknesses but rather not knowing what to pray for. Our finite minds are an infirmity, or an inadequacy.
If we look at the context of Paul's thorn in the flesh, we find that infirmity does not mean sickness in 2 Corinthians 12:9 and 10. In 2 Corinthians 11:30, Paul uses the exact terminology of "glorying in infirmities" that is used just a few verses later in speaking about this thorn. In the eleventh chapter he had just finished listing what those infirmities were. In verses 23-29, he lists such things as imprisonment, stripes, shipwrecks, and stonings; none of these speak of sickness. Verse 27 mentions weakness and painfulness, which some have tried to make mean sickness, but it is just as possible he could have been weary and suffered painfulness from such things as being stoned and left for dead (Acts 14:19). All these things listed in 2 Corinthians 11 refer to persecutions as infirmities. So, in context, Paul's thorn was a demonic angel or messenger sent by Satan which continually stirred up persecution against him. This is also verified by three Old Testament references (Num. 33:55; Josh. 23:13 and Judg. 2:3), where people are spoken of as being "thorns in your sides" and "thorns in your eyes."
Paul asked the Lord to remove persecution from him, not sickness, and the Lord told him His grace was sufficient. We are not redeemed from persecution, and Paul later stated that when he said in 2 Timothy 3:12, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Most gladly, therefore, he gloried in persecutions, reproaches, necessities, and distresses that the power of Christ might rest upon him (2 Cor. 12:9). The word "glory" is an old English word which means to have dominion over or command. It is used in Exodus 8:9 where Moses told Pharaoh to glory over him, or command him, when to destroy the frogs. So when Paul spoke of glorying in these infirmities or persecutions, he was speaking of victory even in the midst of continual harassment.
In Acts 14:19, Paul was stoned and left for dead, but God raised him up, and the next day he walked at least twenty miles into the next town and started preaching again. The Lord did not stop the persecution, but God's strength was certainly made perfect in Paul's weakness (verse 9). Can you imagine what those that stoned him must have thought? They could see Paul's humanity in the cuts and bruises, but they could also see the supernatural strength of God flowing through him. "For when I am weak, then am I strong" (verse 10).
There are two other passages of Scripture that those who believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness have tried to use to verify that. One is Galatians 4:13-15. Here Paul says that he preached the Gospel to these Galatians through an infirmity of the flesh, and in verse 15, he makes reference to these people being willing to poke out their own eyes and give them to him. From this, I have heard ministers preach that Paul's thorn was a rare, ancient disease which was characterized by runny, puffy eyes. But let us look at whom Paul was speaking to when he said this. He was writing to the people who lived in the region known as Galatia, which had as its major cities, Derbe, Lystra, and Iconium. The instance we mentioned earlier, where Paul was stoned and left for dead, happened in Lystra, a city of Galatia. The next day Paul walked to Derbe, another city of Galatia, and began preaching unto them. I'm sure he had runny, puffy eyes, along with multiple cuts and bruises, but they were not the result of some disease. They were the result of having just been stoned. He also says in verse 13 that his infirmity was "at the first," which leaves the impression it was only a temporary thing that he recovered from.
The next scripture used to say Paul's thorn was bad eyes is also in Galatians, chapter 6, verse 11. It says, "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." People have said Paul's eyes were so bad that he had to write in large letters, and this is what he was making reference to. That is only a supposition and not a very good one at that. It is a lot more credible to believe that he was simply referring to the long letter he had written to the Galatians.
The reason it is so important to realize that the thorn in the flesh was not something which Jesus died to redeem us from, such as sickness, is so that we won't submit ourselves to these things. James 4:7 says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." We have to resist, or actively fight against, the devil and the things he brings, to see them flee. Satan has used traditional teaching about Paul's thorn to bring many Christians to a place of submitting to him. But, praise God, you shall know the truth and the truth, shall set you free.
This Bible commentary below says it very well and it has helped me in my understanding of what Paul's thorn was about. Please read it and tell me what you think. I'm impressed you are 15 and have been studying these important issues of the Bible. But hey, I'm going to be 57 and I'm just learning about this so we all have learning to do.
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." (2 Cor. 12:7-10)
This thorn in the flesh that Paul mentioned has been used and misused by Christians to justify submitting to nearly any problem that comes along. Satan has twisted this passage of Scripture to deceive many, many people into believing that God would not heal Paul, so how can they expect to be healed? Let us examine this closely and find out exactly what Paul's thorn in the flesh was.
First of all, this "thorn" came because of the abundance of revelations Paul had received. Until a person has an abundance of revelations, similar to what Paul had, he is not going to have a "thorn." That would disqualify just about all of those who have been hiding behind Paul's thorn.
Then, verse 7 says it came lest Paul should be exalted above measure. Traditionally, that has been interpreted to say the thorn was to keep Paul humble. Therefore, God had to be the author of it, because only God would want Paul to be humble. But there is a godly way of being exalted. First Peter 5:6 says, "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time." Those who submit (humble) themselves to God will be exalted by God. Paul was not speaking of exalting himself above measure through pride, but rather, the thorn came from Satan to keep Paul from being exalted by God in the eyes of the people. Many more people would have received what Paul preached if everything was always "rosy" for him. But there was this messenger of Satan who always buffeted Paul and scared away the faint-hearted from committing themselves to Jesus, whom Paul preached.
God magnified, or exalted, Joshua in the sight of his people (Josh. 3:7). He continued to do that with the people He used on into the new covenant (Acts 5:13). So, we see that the exalting spoken of is not a negative kind but a godly kind. That just further strengthens the fact that the thorn was not God's doing.
In verse 7, right after the thorn in the flesh is mentioned, there is a phrase set off by commas which says, "The messenger of Satan to buffet me." This is an explanation of what the thorn was. It was not a thing but rather a demonic messenger. The word used as "messenger" here is always translated as angel or messenger and refers to a created being. So, Paul's thorn was literally a demon sent from Satan to buffet him. The word "buffet" means to strike repeatedly as waves would buffet the shore.
How did this demonic force continually strike Paul? Traditionally it has been taught that it was with sickness, and the thing that made many accept that is the use of the words "weakness" and "infirmity" in verses 9 and 10. Infirmity definitely does mean sickness and is used that way in 1 Timothy 5:23, but that is not the only meaning of the word. The number two definition is any lack or inadequacy. For instance, Romans 8:26 says, "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities." In this case, the context makes it clear that it is not speaking of sicknesses but rather not knowing what to pray for. Our finite minds are an infirmity, or an inadequacy.
If we look at the context of Paul's thorn in the flesh, we find that infirmity does not mean sickness in 2 Corinthians 12:9 and 10. In 2 Corinthians 11:30, Paul uses the exact terminology of "glorying in infirmities" that is used just a few verses later in speaking about this thorn. In the eleventh chapter he had just finished listing what those infirmities were. In verses 23-29, he lists such things as imprisonment, stripes, shipwrecks, and stonings; none of these speak of sickness. Verse 27 mentions weakness and painfulness, which some have tried to make mean sickness, but it is just as possible he could have been weary and suffered painfulness from such things as being stoned and left for dead (Acts 14:19). All these things listed in 2 Corinthians 11 refer to persecutions as infirmities. So, in context, Paul's thorn was a demonic angel or messenger sent by Satan which continually stirred up persecution against him. This is also verified by three Old Testament references (Num. 33:55; Josh. 23:13 and Judg. 2:3), where people are spoken of as being "thorns in your sides" and "thorns in your eyes."
Paul asked the Lord to remove persecution from him, not sickness, and the Lord told him His grace was sufficient. We are not redeemed from persecution, and Paul later stated that when he said in 2 Timothy 3:12, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Most gladly, therefore, he gloried in persecutions, reproaches, necessities, and distresses that the power of Christ might rest upon him (2 Cor. 12:9). The word "glory" is an old English word which means to have dominion over or command. It is used in Exodus 8:9 where Moses told Pharaoh to glory over him, or command him, when to destroy the frogs. So when Paul spoke of glorying in these infirmities or persecutions, he was speaking of victory even in the midst of continual harassment.
In Acts 14:19, Paul was stoned and left for dead, but God raised him up, and the next day he walked at least twenty miles into the next town and started preaching again. The Lord did not stop the persecution, but God's strength was certainly made perfect in Paul's weakness (verse 9). Can you imagine what those that stoned him must have thought? They could see Paul's humanity in the cuts and bruises, but they could also see the supernatural strength of God flowing through him. "For when I am weak, then am I strong" (verse 10).
There are two other passages of Scripture that those who believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness have tried to use to verify that. One is Galatians 4:13-15. Here Paul says that he preached the Gospel to these Galatians through an infirmity of the flesh, and in verse 15, he makes reference to these people being willing to poke out their own eyes and give them to him. From this, I have heard ministers preach that Paul's thorn was a rare, ancient disease which was characterized by runny, puffy eyes. But let us look at whom Paul was speaking to when he said this. He was writing to the people who lived in the region known as Galatia, which had as its major cities, Derbe, Lystra, and Iconium. The instance we mentioned earlier, where Paul was stoned and left for dead, happened in Lystra, a city of Galatia. The next day Paul walked to Derbe, another city of Galatia, and began preaching unto them. I'm sure he had runny, puffy eyes, along with multiple cuts and bruises, but they were not the result of some disease. They were the result of having just been stoned. He also says in verse 13 that his infirmity was "at the first," which leaves the impression it was only a temporary thing that he recovered from.
The next scripture used to say Paul's thorn was bad eyes is also in Galatians, chapter 6, verse 11. It says, "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." People have said Paul's eyes were so bad that he had to write in large letters, and this is what he was making reference to. That is only a supposition and not a very good one at that. It is a lot more credible to believe that he was simply referring to the long letter he had written to the Galatians.
The reason it is so important to realize that the thorn in the flesh was not something which Jesus died to redeem us from, such as sickness, is so that we won't submit ourselves to these things. James 4:7 says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." We have to resist, or actively fight against, the devil and the things he brings, to see them flee. Satan has used traditional teaching about Paul's thorn to bring many Christians to a place of submitting to him. But, praise God, you shall know the truth and the truth, shall set you free.
R
job never received the answer to that question either...if it was beyond job's understanding then i suppose it is probably beyond our understanding too...in the book God never answers that question for job or for us...so maybe God's response to job is also his reply to us...
this post was kind of 'stream of consciousness' but i hope i got a point across...
this post was kind of 'stream of consciousness' but i hope i got a point across...
Can you imagine what it is like to be serving God with a pure heart, in obedience and trust, then to suddenly have the whole world around you destroyed, and everything you had achieved for God to turn to dust? And what is worse, to meet nothing but silence whereas before you had a deep communion with Him and heard His voice often? You even blessed Him for everything that befell you, but this time you do not have His sweet presence with you anymore and you do not know why?
Well this is Job's story and the story also for those who have advanced in faith till they come to the Dark Night of the Soul.
Whether Job asked for healing is immaterial. It was the presence of God that he desired and had lost and nothing else mattered. He had already reached the stage where he was in the perfect will of God and knew that His heavely Father knew what he needed before he asked. His needs no longer mattered at this stage, it was all for God's glory and like the apostle Paul he accepted all from the hand of God as His will.
Many think that they are going through a dark night because they are suffering or sick but in fact they are sick because they do not eat the foods that God has supplied for our bodies, straight from the ground, trees, or from the beasts, and organic and unprocessed. Instead they buy packaged food which is not food at all but a pile of chemical broth and rubbish and when they get sick they go to the drug supplier (doctor) to get a sticking plaster remedy which will eventually make them sicker still. So I am sure that Job only put in his mouth what God meant to be there.
The dark night is a unique experience only for the few who have chosen to go the way of the cross. The purpose of it is to teach man that he cannot even depend or worship the presence of God and must walk by faith alone. It is a terrible thing.
Well this is Job's story and the story also for those who have advanced in faith till they come to the Dark Night of the Soul.
Whether Job asked for healing is immaterial. It was the presence of God that he desired and had lost and nothing else mattered. He had already reached the stage where he was in the perfect will of God and knew that His heavely Father knew what he needed before he asked. His needs no longer mattered at this stage, it was all for God's glory and like the apostle Paul he accepted all from the hand of God as His will.
Many think that they are going through a dark night because they are suffering or sick but in fact they are sick because they do not eat the foods that God has supplied for our bodies, straight from the ground, trees, or from the beasts, and organic and unprocessed. Instead they buy packaged food which is not food at all but a pile of chemical broth and rubbish and when they get sick they go to the drug supplier (doctor) to get a sticking plaster remedy which will eventually make them sicker still. So I am sure that Job only put in his mouth what God meant to be there.
The dark night is a unique experience only for the few who have chosen to go the way of the cross. The purpose of it is to teach man that he cannot even depend or worship the presence of God and must walk by faith alone. It is a terrible thing.