For Those Who Deny Eternal Security

[Utah]

Where did you come up with that? HOW DARE YOU come in here & judge every person who doesn't believe in eternal security to believe only in perfectionism & not grace? Which one of us did you sit down with & had a long discussion about our beliefs?

Those who judge largely will be largely judged.

You can't understand an oxymoron..... it's three letters too much for you.

What's it like being perfect? Do tell.

You have my undivided attention, as well as everyone else who lives by grace.

 

[dcontroversal]

Again, Biblical Greek is a dead language. And not all scholars agree with one another. So you are talking gibberish. You didn't grow up during Biblical times writing and speaking this language.

The only ones who reject the Greek and Hebrew are the ones who the language proves wrong and I will add...Brazilian Portuguese does not have the H.S. accompanying it...

 

[Gr8grace]

Did the Lord tell you to go and sin no more? If this woman went and sinned again would the Lord have condemned her according to your doctrine or would he have given her Grace? The Lord had not gone to the cross yet nor had he shed his blood, yet he did not condemn the woman according to the law.

Brad, IMO this is not even worth debating over. These passages were not in the originals. And do not fit grace.

Adultery is a sin and by the Lords norms and standards he could judge the woman. If this verse was in the originals, it would read more like this..........

"I will take your judgement unto myself and be judged for you and for all your sins."

It hard to fight over, and to prove words that probably were not inspired in the first place.

 

[Jason0047]

The only ones who reject the Greek and Hebrew are the ones who the language proves wrong and I will add...Brazilian Portuguese does not have the H.S. accompanying it...

The point I am getting at is that there is a huge difference in learning from a book (especially an outdated one) vs. Experiencing the language yourself with the actual people. In other words, it would be like asking someone who doesn't speak Modern English to study 1600's English and then expecting them to know such a language better than you or the people from that era.

 

[Jason0047]

People here did not grow up speaking Biblical Greek to say with 100% certainty that they know the grammar or certain usages of words. Unless of course one has a time machine. For to assume Paul would not correct people on their Greek today would be preposterous.

 

[dcontroversal]

The point I am getting at is that there is a huge difference in learning from a book (especially an outdated one) vs. Experiencing the language yourself with the actual people. In other words, it would be like asking someone who doesn't speak Modern English to study 1600's English and then expecting them to know such a language better than you or the people from that era.

Jason, you cannot compare English which is constantly changing to Greek which is a dead language....The Greek from the first century until today means exactly the same thing it meant to a 1st Century believer as it does to a believer today......The Greek is emphatic, expressive, colorful and God inspired the N.T. in a dead language for a reason...so what was said and written by the disciples would remain consistent throughout all ages.....and what is tragic is the simple fact that the Greek and the verb tenses found condemn your philosophy and what you teach as false!<--the tragic part being you reject it!

 

[Gr8grace]

Jason, you cannot compare English which is constantly changing to Greek which is a dead language....The Greek from the first century until today means exactly the same thing it meant to a 1st Century believer as it does to a believer today......The Greek is emphatic, expressive, colorful and God inspired the N.T. in a dead language for a reason...so what was said and written by the disciples would remain consistent throughout all ages.....and what is tragic is the simple fact that the Greek and the verb tenses found condemn your philosophy and what you teach as false!<--the tragic part being you reject it!

There is a divine reason it is written in the language that it is in..........and you nailed the reason.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where did you come up with that? HOW DARE YOU come in here & judge every person who doesn't believe in eternal security to believe only in perfectionism & not grace? Which one of us did you sit down with & had a long discussion about our beliefs?

Those who judge largely will be largely judged.

You can't understand an oxymoron..... it's three letters too much for you.

Thats a contradiction. Eternal security is based on Grace, apart from grace, we have no security at all. only judgment (what we deserve)

what gets me, is how those who do not believe in eternal security based on the work of Christ, think they could ever be worthy of ANYTHING but eternal condemnation (which they must, to believe the way they do)

 

[Utah]

Thats a contradiction. Eternal security is based on Grace, apart from grace, we have no security at all. only judgment (what we deserve)

what gets me, is how those who do not believe in eternal security based on the work of Christ, think they could ever be worthy of ANYTHING but eternal condemnation (which they must, to believe the way they do)

Yeah, he did get that backwards, didn't he.

So much for being perfect. He can't even condemn others properly. Lol.

 

[notuptome]

Where did you come up with that? HOW DARE YOU come in here & judge every person who doesn't believe in eternal security to believe only in perfectionism & not grace? Which one of us did you sit down with & had a long discussion about our beliefs?

Those who judge largely will be largely judged.

You can't understand an oxymoron..... it's three letters too much for you.

I heard an old evangelist one time who said that if you chuck a rock into a pack of dogs the one that yelps is the one that got hit.

Proverbs teaches that the fool speaks what is on his mind while the wise man holds his peace until later.

Christ is our foundation and when we build we build upon Him. It stands to reason that those things built upon Christ will stand. Jesus said His church would prevail even against the gates of hell. If our salvation is not secure then it cannot be built upon the foundation of Christ.

The natural man cannot understand Spiritual things because they are Spiritually discerned.

These are questions best asked of self in the presence of God rather than before the opinions of men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No. There are people who believe in a false Christ. For example, do you believe the Catholic's version of Jesus is the same as Christ described in the Bible? But this cannot be the same Jesus because their Jesus allows for one to worship idols; And the OSAS proponent believes Jesus allows them to sin and still be saved (Which is not the same Jesus described in the Bible).

What does any of the above have to do with anything I said below:

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever Well . . . I consider that I did make sense - I did not say it was one or the other - are you having trouble comprehending?

If someone rejects Jesus then they have rejected his words . . . when someone accepts Jesus they accept his words. Now, because I may still have faults and failures in my life that I am having trouble with doesn't mean that I have rejected Jesus and his words. That is where you are wrong.

Jason, someone who rejects Jesus is an unbeliever . . . so of course, they also reject his words.

You just don't understand eternal security, the new birth, partaking of the divine nature, being sealed until the day of redemption, being already raised and seated with Christ in heaven . . .

Those who believe in eternal security DO NOT believe that we are to continually sin . . . we understand that as long as one is in this body of death (flesh) one will do things that they REALLY don't want to do . . . we understand that God does not remove his holy Spirit from us because we may have weaknesses in some areas of our lives - for where we are weak His grace is sufficient!

But then - I don't expect you to agree . . .

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, you cannot compare English which is constantly changing to Greek which is a dead language....The Greek from the first century until today means exactly the same thing it meant to a 1st Century believer as it does to a believer today......The Greek is emphatic, expressive, colorful and God inspired the N.T. in a dead language for a reason...so what was said and written by the disciples would remain consistent throughout all ages.....and what is tragic is the simple fact that the Greek and the verb tenses found condemn your philosophy and what you teach as false!<--the tragic part being you reject it!

Whether the Greek taught in text books today is the same exact Biblical Greek written in the Bible is not true. There are many different meanings or definitions given to for different words; And not every Greek scholar agrees with one another on these interpretations. So it's like a choose your own adventure on the interpretation of your Bible when most look to the Greek. Also, those who study Greek sound more intelligent than those who do not know the Greek. They have a higher up on the person who does not know Greek or those who are poor and or who have limited resources in other countriies who do not have access to it. Jesus favored those who were poor and who were simple. Jesus said beware of the Scribes (i.e. those who transcribed the written law). People today are relgious pharisees and they are not even aware of it. They seek to be religious in front of others, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves making their recruits two fold a child of hell than they are. I believe this describes many in the church today.

 

[KennethC]

Jason, you cannot compare English which is constantly changing to Greek which is a dead language....The Greek from the first century until today means exactly the same thing it meant to a 1st Century believer as it does to a believer today......The Greek is emphatic, expressive, colorful and God inspired the N.T. in a dead language for a reason...so what was said and written by the disciples would remain consistent throughout all ages.....and what is tragic is the simple fact that the Greek and the verb tenses found condemn your philosophy and what you teach as false!<--the tragic part being you reject it!

That is a false statement because in the first 2 centuries of the church the meaning of diakonos meant an ordained minister.

It was not tell the middle of the 3rd century it was changed to add the word servant to it, and then from the 5th century on was adapted to add other positions in the church then just minister to it's meaning.

The Greek meanings have been changed over the years which is why you have so many different Greek study guides, concordinances and lexicons now that now all of them have the same meaning.

I myself constantly use Strong's and Thayer's Greek concordance and lexicon, which when ever I post the definition and meaning/usage from those study references you disagree with it. So that is absolutely not true that the Greek definition and usage of those words have not been changed over the years, and have always stayed the same.

 

[Jason0047]

What does any of the above have to do with anything I said below:


You just don't understand eternal security, the new birth, partaking of the divine nature, being sealed until the day of redemption, being already raised and seated with Christ in heaven . . .

Those who believe in eternal security DO NOT believe that we are to continually sin . . . we understand that as long as one is in this body of death (flesh) one will do things that they REALLY don't want to do . . . we understand that God does not remove his holy Spirit from us because we may have weaknesses in some areas of our lives - for where we are weak His grace is sufficient!

But then - I don't expect you to agree . . .

I believe the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) version of Jesus that allows for a person to sin and still be saved is a false Christ. Hence, why they are an unbeliever in the real Jesus described in the Bible plainly. So the OSAS proponent (Who believes they can do evil and yet still be saved) rejects the real Jesus (Described in the Holy Scriptures) and His words. For every time I bring up the warnings in God's Word to the believer, they either go ignored or they are twisted beyond what it says plainly.

All those who proclaim to be in Christ's Kingdom and work iniquity (sin) will be removed by Christ's angels (See Matthew 13:41).

As for the new birth and being a part of God's family: Well, one of the Commandments was to respect your parents. If you broke that law it was very serious offense (even in some cases it meant death). This is a mirror reflection of the respect we are to show to our Heavenly Father (Who is our ultimate parent and guardian). If we disrespect our Heavenly Father by thinking we will forever sin at some point in the future (because of some sad excuse that we have a fallen nature), then death will be the result like it was in the Old Testament. For if one is promoting a doctrine that they can sin and still be saved on any level is showing disrespect to God the Father because He is Holy and just and cannot condone anyone's evil or sin under any circumstance. Only sin that is confessed and forsaken is where mercy is given (See Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:3-4). Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to.... "sin no more." Jesus meant that. He was not lying to her.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Whether the Greek taught in text books today is the same exact Biblical Greek written in the Bible is not true. There are many different meanings or definitions given to for different words; And not every Greek scholar agrees with one another on these interpretations. So it's like a choose your own adventure on the interpretation of your Bible when most look to the Greek. Also, those who study Greek sound more intelligent than those who do not know the Greek. They have a higher up on the person who does not know Greek or those who are poor and or who have limited resources in other countriies who do not have access to it. Jesus favored those who were poor and who were simple. Jesus said beware of the Scribes (i.e. those who transcribed the written law). People today are relgious pharisees and they are not even aware of it. They seek to be religious in front of others, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves making their recruits two fold a child of hell than they are. I believe this describes many in the church today.

There are many different meanings or definitions given to for different words; And not every Greek scholar agrees with one another on these interpretations. So it's like a choose your own adventure on the interpretation of your Bible when most look to the Greek.

Then why do you apologize as if you have the only possible acceptable interpretation (OSAS Arguments).

People today are relgious pharisees and they are not even aware of it. They seek to be religious in front of others, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves making their recruits two fold a child of hell than they are. I believe this describes many in the church today.

Is this also true of those who hold their personal interpretation of the scriptures to be the only acceptable interpretation?

 

[Jason0047]

Then why do you apologize as if you have the only possible acceptable interpretation (OSAS Arguments).

Is this also true of those who hold their personal interpretation of the scriptures to be the only acceptable interpretation?

I am not infallible in understanding God's Word 100% of the time. God at times has corrected me on the understanding on certain passages in the past on rare occasion. But the point is that He corrected me. I did not continue to hold a false view just because it was comfortable to my way of thinking. Scripture and the Spirit actually changed my mind. That is the point. Most who hold to false views in the Bible rarely ever change their mind on beliefs that they accept early on. They are not a good Berean who has an open mind to the Scriptures and sees whether those things be so or not.

For God's Word says that there are saints who have no need that any man teaches them (1 John 2:27). This is because they studied by the Spirit. They studied to show themselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).

 

[Jason0047]

Anyways, getting back to the OSAS Anthology Book posted in this forum:

The next verse they bring up in defense of their sin and still be saved doctrine is.... John 3:16.

They are implying that just because you "believe" in Jesus (your whole life and that is it) you are saved according to the verse. In fact, they even say.... period! As if that was the end of the verse. But there is still more verses that follow it, though (that helps gives us the context).

John 3:19-21 is the "Condemnation" mentioned in Scripture. In John 3:20 it says everyone who does evil hates the Light.

So you cannot have a belief on Jesus and yet do evil for John 3:20 says everyone who does evil hates the light. This is why Jesus told people to repent or they will perish.

 

[dcontroversal]

That is a false statement because in the first 2 centuries of the church the meaning of diakonos meant an ordained minister.

It was not tell the middle of the 3rd century it was changed to add the word servant to it, and then from the 5th century on was adapted to add other positions in the church then just minister to it's meaning.

The Greek meanings have been changed over the years which is why you have so many different Greek study guides, concordinances and lexicons now that now all of them have the same meaning.

I myself constantly use Strong's and Thayer's Greek concordance and lexicon, which when ever I post the definition and meaning/usage from those study references you disagree with it. So that is absolutely not true that the Greek definition and usage of those words have not been changed over the years, and have always stayed the same.

Exactly why you teach falsehoods and miss the mark on almost everything.....the word deacon has always meant servant......so...as usual your view misses the mark and it seems all you can do is disagree with everyone who consistently proves you wrong!

 

[Jason0047]

The only ones who reject the Greek and Hebrew are the ones who the language proves wrong and I will add...Brazilian Portuguese does not have the H.S. accompanying it...

So God didn't translate the different languages so that all the saints could understand each other in Acts 2?

 

[dcontroversal]

So God didn't translate the different languages so that all the saints could understand each other in Acts 2?

God didn't translate anything in Acts 2.....the people HEARD in their own collective languages as the disciples spoke!