Torah Study

[Tintin]

noah may or may not have gotten help...

he and his family probably had enough time to build it on their own...

and the people certainly didn't sympathize with noah's plans...

on the other hand they might have been willing to help with the work if noah paid them...never underestimate what worldly people will do for money...

Oh, yes. Noah and his family could have built the ark on their own in terms of time-frame, but I was thinking about them carrying around massive wooden beams etc. I think you're onto something there. And yes, as Gandalf has mentioned, Lamech and Methuselah could have helped to build the ark.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Oh, yes. Noah and his family could have built the ark on their own in terms of time-frame, but I was thinking about them carrying around massive wooden beams etc. I think you're onto something there. And yes, as Gandalf has mentioned, Lamech and Methuselah could have helped to build the ark.

LOL, Methuselah the oldest known carpenter of all time

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Oh, yes. Noah and his family could have built the ark on their own in terms of time-frame, but I was thinking about them carrying around massive wooden beams etc. I think you're onto something there. And yes, as Gandalf has mentioned, Lamech and Methuselah could have helped to build the ark.

don't forget we need to be careful about falling into the unbiblical worldview trap of underestimating the technical capabilities of ancient people...noah might have been able to engineer a highly effective solution to the problem of moving and placing all of the lumber...

 

[Tintin]

don't forget we need to be careful about falling into the unbiblical worldview trap of underestimating the technical capabilities of ancient people...noah might have been able to engineer a highly effective solution to the problem of moving and placing all of the lumber...

I don't underestimate them. I believe that they were more intelligent than people were post-Flood. But you're right. Noah or one of his sons (or his wife or his son's wives) possibly created some kind of crane or winching system or something to help with the building of the ark. Thanks again, sister.

 

[Dan_473]

My question to Tin is where did God first specifically (by His word) tell man he could not eat any type of meat.

good question!

also, before the flood, is it a commandment not to eat meat, or is meat just inedible?

 

[Dan_473]

meat was not -prohibited- but it was never -given- to humans as food until after the flood...to me that says it was not 'legitimate' food for people at the time... in the same way God never prohibited eating dirt as food...but he never gave us dirt to eat...and so hardly anyone would consider dirt to be a legitimate food for humans...

well, I think that would be because dirt contains little or no nutrients, wouldn't it? so, today meat contains high nutrients... could human bodies access those nutrients pre-flood?

 

[Dan_473]

As for the second bit. You seem to be talking in riddles. What do you mean?

yes, about that... the layout came out wrong... I apologize...

it should go like this

Tintin: Yes, the ground was cursed, but sin and death and their consequences speak of everything becoming more difficult and unpleasant - including labour. It's not a stretch.



Dan_473: well, I can't go there with ya... I agree that if one focuses on the down side of things, it can look that way...
in my experience, if one focuses on Jesus' teaching 'consider the birds of the air' it can begin to look much differently...



hopefully that makes more sense...

 

[Dan_473]

It's not about being pessimistic. It's about understanding that the Fall was the greatest tragedy to befall all of Creation and that there were far-reaching consequences for Adam and Eve having rebelled against God.

well, I disagree... about optimism/pessimism, I think it's very much about that... I disagree that the fall was a big tradgedy... I believe God had planned for it, or the possibility, before creation...

I think most people will agree with you, though...

one thing is that the fall allowed people to gain wisdom, and getting wisdom is highly praised in Proverbs...

 

[elf3]

When doing a quick study on the meaning of "window" there are many different thoughts on the subject. Since the "original" is lost I found everything from "midday" to an actual window to a row or windows to a skylight type thing.

As per building the ark I personally believe it was only Noah and his family that built it. My reasoning is this. First they were "put down" by quite a few people while they were building it. Second God would have given them the strength, knowledge, ability and time to build it. God gave them the exact amount of time to build it and get all the animals and supplies needed for the flood. There is no mention of "others" helping but there is mention of them being ridiculed for building it.

The one thing we should take from this is the faith involved by Noah to listen too God at a time where a "flood" seemed an impossibility. We can also take from this the "perfection" in how the ark was designed by God. God used "perfection" to save Noah and his family the same way in which He used the "perfection" of Christ to save us.

 

[elf3]

well, I disagree... about optimism/pessimism, I think it's very much about that... I disagree that the fall was a big tradgedy... I believe God had planned for it, or the possibility, before creation...

I think most people will agree with you, though...

one thing is that the fall allowed people to gain wisdom, and getting wisdom is highly praised in Proverbs...

Quickly on the "fall of man" this for sure did not take God by surprise. Because of certain attributes of God we can see that God knew it would happen God ordained it and God already had a plan for it. The attributes are Sovereignty and Omniscience. Because of God's Omniscience he knew and because of God's Sovereignty He ordained. I don't know the why? But I have enough faith in God to know he had a reason. Throughout history we can see that God had a plan we just don't know fully "why" He planned it this exact way.

 

[Dan_473]

Seems kind of lazy, but sure.

no, not lazy... as Ecclesiastes says, "of the making many of books (webpages) there is no end..."

to make an absurd example, here's a link...
https://en.wikipedia.org/

read it all through... and afterwards, I think you'll agree that I've said on this thread makes the most sense...

What Chapter of Genesis did you want NT verses for?

well, one thing we've been talking about in the thread is whether animals ate meat pre-flood... so are there any nt verses about that?

 

[Dan_473]

God didn't give the command for mankind to eat meat, as He did for other foods. That would mean meat just wasn't given to mankind to be eaten, prior to the Great Flood.

does the 'wasn't given' mean un-eatable? or just shouldn't eat...

I take it to mean un-eatable... a boundry that cannot be crossed...
something like God laying out the boundries of where different nations would live...

humans don't have the power to alter it...


****************************************


then, an excellent Torah-study situation: does the absence of a positive statement (you may eat this) imply that the similar negative statement (you may not eat this) is to be followed?

is there a positive statement about milk? eggs? I can't think of one... maybe...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

then, an excellent Torah-study situation: does the absence of a positive statement (you may eat this) imply that the similar negative statement (you may not eat this) is to be followed?

people seem to be getting tired of the 'food' topic...but i thought i would give a response to the more general question above...

in many cases i think it is clear that a positive command would -not- have any corresponding negative statement as a consequence... for example 'honor your father and mother' does -not- imply that God wants you to dishonor your grandparents...

on the other hand there are cases where commands are being given pertaining to issues that are necessarily coming up for the first time ever...for example in the case of food there was no permission given to anyone to eat -anything- prior to God assigning the green plants as food because before that there was nobody to give permission to...so we see that the very first occurrence of the concept of 'food' was the introduction of green plants as the food they were to eat...

a similar case would be when God ordained the first marriage by uniting adam and eve...this was a positive command for one man to unite with one woman...and jesus indicated in one of his discussions that this -did- exclude things like divorce and polygamy...meaning that a negative statement -was- implied...

i would argue that in cases like the giving of green plants for food and the establishment of marriage God isn't just permitting a particular thing but actually -defining- it in the process...God was defining marriage as the union of one man and one woman and he was defining food as 'every green plant'...as these things were defined the permissions applied would be granted to the exclusion of everything else...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

ok so as i promised here are some thoughts about the 'window' noah was commanded to make in the ark...

the hebrew word used is 'tsohar'...this word is never translated as 'window' except in genesis 6...and every other time that scripture describes a window it uses a different hebrew word...if it -was- a window it seems to me that it must be of some unique kind...

'tsohar' comes from a root that means 'appear' or 'mount' or 'back' or 'shine'...in the singular it may mean 'light' in the sense that light is something that 'shines' and makes things 'appear' to a viewer...in the plural form 'tsaharayim' it always refers to midday in scripture...with noon being the time when the son 'mounts' its highest point in the sky... another word derived from the same root refers to fresh oil...apparently because oil causes things to 'shine'

the singular form 'tsohar' appears only one in the bible...in genesis 6...

the traditional translation of 'window' is a sensible one because a window allows light to shine in...however a window would make me wonder about rain getting in...but as i said if it was a window then the hebrew word choice implies that it must have been a special kind of window...maybe a covered or sheltered window...

answers in genesis seems to be going with a variant on the window possibility where the window is like a skylight in the roof that can be opened and closed...this would solve the problem of water getting in and also aligns with the concept of 'midday' since it was on top of the ark and the light would best come into the ark through this opening at midday...

the more modern translation of 'roof' is also reasonable if it was a pointed roof because it would go along with the idea of 'mount' as in something coming to a high point...it would also agree with the concept of 'back' as the point of the roof would visually resemble a 'backbone'... but then again if it doesn't mean 'window' then i wonder how exactly fresh air was going to get into the ark...

actually the window and pointed roof don't have to be mutually exclusive...if the pointed roof extended past the edge of the top of the ark it would have been able to protect a window just below its overhang from rain getting in... in this case we are looking at something more like a window with a protective awning that is an extension of the roof...which really seems to fit very well with another clause in the verse that refers to some kind of length measured from the top of the ark...

some unconventional interpretations are also defensible...

it could have been an independent source of light...possibly a row of oil lamps since another word derived from the same root means oil...although in this case i would wonder about the danger of fire inside the ark...especially with flammable pitch coating everything...

another possibility is some kind of 'pinnacle' type structure in keeping with the concept of 'mounting' to a high point...this could refer to a type of high stem on the bow of the ark...which answers in genesis has suggested as a feature of the ark that might have helped the ark to stay oriented into the wind and may have inspired similar bow stems in later ancient ships...

a moon pool in another possibility that has been suggested...which answers in genesis might also be including in the design for their 'ark encounter' attraction... a moon pool could add stability to the ark and possibly allow for wave power to be channeled into ventilating the ark... however it seems to me that a moon pool that is large enough to be effective would also severely decrease the amount of usable space inside the ark...and identifying the 'tsohar' as a moon pool appears to be the least etymologically plausible of all the interpretations...

one more solution that i personally find very intriguing is the possibility that it was a calcite 'sunstone' crystal mounted in the roof of the ark... there is strong evidence that the vikings had these and used them to determine the position of the sun from the distribution of ambient light in the sky in cloudy conditions and even during twilight after the sun has set...the method of use takes advantage of the fact that calcite crystals produce double images...but the double image would become a single image when the crystal was held in exactly the right position relative to the sun... interestingly the 'tsaharayim' plural form of the hebrew word could be read literally as 'double light'... however there would be the question of exactly why noah would have needed a navigation device as the ark had no apparent steering...although perhaps he could have used information about the position of the sun for another reason other than navigation? it would also be possible that noah could have used calcite as a window 'glass'...but then this seems overly elaborate when there would have been simpler solutions...

 

[Tintin]

yes, about that... the layout came out wrong... I apologize...

it should go like this

Tintin: Yes, the ground was cursed, but sin and death and their consequences speak of everything becoming more difficult and unpleasant - including labour. It's not a stretch.

Dan_473: well, I can't go there with ya... I agree that if one focuses on the down side of things, it can look that way...
in my experience, if one focuses on Jesus' teaching 'consider the birds of the air' it can begin to look much differently...

hopefully that makes more sense...

So you're saying don't worry, God's got it under control? That's the thing, I don't worry about these kinds of things. If anything they help me to reason my faith and grow closer to God.

The entire creation is cursed.
Genesis 2:17-18

OT:
[TABLE="class: gvbv"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt"]And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
[/TD]
[TD="class: alt"][/TD]
[TD="class: alt"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
NT:
For the creation http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote1was subjected to futility, not willingly, but http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote2because of him who subjected it, in hope that http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote3the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote4the whole creation http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote5has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote6the first-fruits of the Spirit, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote7groan inwardly as http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote8we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote9the redemption of our bodies.

Romans 8:20-23


OT:
By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”

Genesis 2:19
NT:
For as http://biblia.com/bible/esv/1 Corinthians 15.21–22#footnote1by a man came death, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/1 Corinthians 15.21–22#footnote2by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For http://biblia.com/bible/esv/1 Corinthians 15.21–22#footnote3as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22

 

[Tintin]

well, I disagree... about optimism/pessimism, I think it's very much about that... I disagree that the fall was a big tradgedy... I believe God had planned for it, or the possibility, before creation...

I think most people will agree with you, though...

one thing is that the fall allowed people to gain wisdom, and getting wisdom is highly praised in Proverbs...

The Fall was a huge tragedy. God knew mankind would rebel against Him, but it wasn't His desire for it to happen. I don't know where people get this idea that people didn't have wisdom before the Fall. Adam and Eve had godly wisdom. Following the Fall, they had wisdom apart from God, which is foolishness. The wisdom praised in Proverbs is godly in nature.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Genesis 7

Then the Lord said to Noah, “Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this [SUP][a][/SUP]time. [SUP]2 [/SUP]You shall take [SUP][/SUP]with you of every clean animal [SUP][c][/SUP]by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; [SUP]3 [/SUP]also of the birds of the [SUP][d][/SUP]sky, [SUP][e][/SUP]by sevens, male and female, to keep [SUP][f][/SUP]offspring alive on the face of all the earth. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]Noah did according to all that the Lord had commanded him.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of water [SUP][g][/SUP]came upon the earth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him entered the ark because of the water of the flood. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Of clean animals and animals that are not clean and birds and everything that creeps on the ground, [SUP]9 [/SUP]there went into the ark to Noah [SUP][h][/SUP]by twos, male and female, as God had commanded Noah. [SUP]10 [/SUP]It came about after the seven days, that the water of the flood [SUP][/SUP]came upon the earth. [SUP]11 [/SUP]In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the [SUP][j][/SUP]floodgates of the sky were opened. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The rain [SUP][k][/SUP]fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]On the very same day Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark, [SUP]14 [/SUP]they and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after [SUP][l][/SUP]their kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, [SUP][m][/SUP]all sorts of birds. [SUP]15 [/SUP]So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the Lord closed it behind him.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then the flood [SUP][n][/SUP]came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. [SUP]18 [/SUP]The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark [SUP][o][/SUP]floated on the [SUP][p][/SUP]surface of the water. [SUP]19 [/SUP]The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains [SUP][q][/SUP]everywhere under the heavens were covered. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The water prevailed fifteen [SUP][r][/SUP]cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. [SUP]21 [/SUP]All flesh that [SUP][/SUP]moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; [SUP]22 [/SUP]of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Thus He blotted out [SUP][t][/SUP]every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the [SUP][/SUP]sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days.



Footnotes:

a. Genesis 7:1 Lit generation
b. Genesis 7:2 Lit to
c. Genesis 7:2 Lit seven seven
d. Genesis 7:3 Lit heavens
e. Genesis 7:3 Lit seven seven
f. Genesis 7:3 Lit seed
g. Genesis 7:6 Lit was
h. Genesis 7:9 Lit two two
i. Genesis 7:10 Lit were
j. Genesis 7:11 Or windows of the heavens
k. Genesis 7:12 Lit was
l. Genesis 7:14 Lit its
m. Genesis 7:14 Lit every bird, every wing
n. Genesis 7:17 Lit was
o. Genesis 7:18 Lit went
p. Genesis 7:18 Lit face
q. Genesis 7:19 Lit which were under all the heavens
r. Genesis 7:20 I.e. One cubit equals approx 18 in.
s. Genesis 7:21 Or crept
t. Genesis 7:23 Lit all existence
u. Genesis 7:23 Lit heavens

 

[elf3]

ok so as i promised here are some thoughts about the 'window' noah was commanded to make in the ark...

the hebrew word used is 'tsohar'...this word is never translated as 'window' except in genesis 6...and every other time that scripture describes a window it uses a different hebrew word...if it -was- a window it seems to me that it must be of some unique kind...

'tsohar' comes from a root that means 'appear' or 'mount' or 'back' or 'shine'...in the singular it may mean 'light' in the sense that light is something that 'shines' and makes things 'appear' to a viewer...in the plural form 'tsaharayim' it always refers to midday in scripture...with noon being the time when the son 'mounts' its highest point in the sky... another word derived from the same root refers to fresh oil...apparently because oil causes things to 'shine'

the singular form 'tsohar' appears only one in the bible...in genesis 6...

the traditional translation of 'window' is a sensible one because a window allows light to shine in...however a window would make me wonder about rain getting in...but as i said if it was a window then the hebrew word choice implies that it must have been a special kind of window...maybe a covered or sheltered window...

answers in genesis seems to be going with a variant on the window possibility where the window is like a skylight in the roof that can be opened and closed...this would solve the problem of water getting in and also aligns with the concept of 'midday' since it was on top of the ark and the light would best come into the ark through this opening at midday...

the more modern translation of 'roof' is also reasonable if it was a pointed roof because it would go along with the idea of 'mount' as in something coming to a high point...it would also agree with the concept of 'back' as the point of the roof would visually resemble a 'backbone'... but then again if it doesn't mean 'window' then i wonder how exactly fresh air was going to get into the ark...

actually the window and pointed roof don't have to be mutually exclusive...if the pointed roof extended past the edge of the top of the ark it would have been able to protect a window just below its overhang from rain getting in... in this case we are looking at something more like a window with a protective awning that is an extension of the roof...which really seems to fit very well with another clause in the verse that refers to some kind of length measured from the top of the ark...

some unconventional interpretations are also defensible...

it could have been an independent source of light...possibly a row of oil lamps since another word derived from the same root means oil...although in this case i would wonder about the danger of fire inside the ark...especially with flammable pitch coating everything...

another possibility is some kind of 'pinnacle' type structure in keeping with the concept of 'mounting' to a high point...this could refer to a type of high stem on the bow of the ark...which answers in genesis has suggested as a feature of the ark that might have helped the ark to stay oriented into the wind and may have inspired similar bow stems in later ancient ships...

a moon pool in another possibility that has been suggested...which answers in genesis might also be including in the design for their 'ark encounter' attraction... a moon pool could add stability to the ark and possibly allow for wave power to be channeled into ventilating the ark... however it seems to me that a moon pool that is large enough to be effective would also severely decrease the amount of usable space inside the ark...and identifying the 'tsohar' as a moon pool appears to be the least etymologically plausible of all the interpretations...

one more solution that i personally find very intriguing is the possibility that it was a calcite 'sunstone' crystal mounted in the roof of the ark... there is strong evidence that the vikings had these and used them to determine the position of the sun from the distribution of ambient light in the sky in cloudy conditions and even during twilight after the sun has set...the method of use takes advantage of the fact that calcite crystals produce double images...but the double image would become a single image when the crystal was held in exactly the right position relative to the sun... interestingly the 'tsaharayim' plural form of the hebrew word could be read literally as 'double light'... however there would be the question of exactly why noah would have needed a navigation device as the ark had no apparent steering...although perhaps he could have used information about the position of the sun for another reason other than navigation? it would also be possible that noah could have used calcite as a window 'glass'...but then this seems overly elaborate when there would have been simpler solutions...

I was recently on vacation and toured the Flagship "Niagara". Viewing the captains quarters I saw something pretty interesting. The room was devoid of windows but in the ceiling was a piece of glass about 6 inches in diameter with a rounded top. Because of the way the glass was shaped it was like a light bulb in the ceiling lighting the room. So on the roof of the ark there could have been similar devices to provide light to the interior of the ark during the day. Too me it makes sense that God would have somehow designed the ark in a way to provide "natural" sunlight into the ark. The use of oil lamps would be very dangerous as you mentioned.

It has been studied that those stuck in complete darkness or without natural sunlight seem to "go a bit mad" over time. 40 days and 40 nights is a long time without natural sunlight. Though we do not have a complete diagram of how the ark was built, too me, it makes sense that God would have somehow allowed for natural light. Although God is God and would have kept them all "sane" in any case

Being from a construction background and having read many architectural plans for my job I would love to be able to view the original plans if they were ever even drawn.

 

[Dan_473]

people seem to be getting tired of the 'food' topic...but i thought i would give a response to the more general question above...

yes, I agree that most people (though certainly not I) are ready to move on from the topic...

I go through the posts one at a time, so when I wrote post 265 and following, I hadn't yet read that folks were ready for something different...

I have more ideas and questions, so if anyone is interested in following up on ideas raised here, let me know plzzzz.... we can open another thread or something...

 

[Dan_473]

So you're saying don't worry, God's got it under control? That's the thing, I don't worry about these kinds of things. If anything they help me to reason my faith and grow closer to God.

The entire creation is cursed.
Genesis 2:17-18

OT:
[TABLE="class: gvbv"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt"]And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
[/TD]
[TD="class: alt"][/TD]
[TD="class: alt"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
NT:
For the creation http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote1was subjected to futility, not willingly, but http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote2because of him who subjected it, in hope that http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote3the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote4the whole creation http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote5has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote6the first-fruits of the Spirit, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote7groan inwardly as http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote8we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 8.20–23#footnote9the redemption of our bodies.

Romans 8:20-23


OT:
By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”

Genesis 2:19
NT:
For as http://biblia.com/bible/esv/1 Corinthians 15.21–22#footnote1by a man came death, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/1 Corinthians 15.21–22#footnote2by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For http://biblia.com/bible/esv/1 Corinthians 15.21–22#footnote3as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22

well, the subject we were talking about was labor, which Jesus points out the birds don't do...

I disagree that all creation is cursed... in the genesis story, the snake is cursed, and the ground is cursed...

unless by 'cursed' you mean 'experiences suffering'...

God has already blessed adam and eve, and I don't think that blessing was removed...