If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[BradC]

What about when someone's conscience is seared?

Good question. What do you think?

 

[notuptome]

Yes, born again Christians can be brought under Condemnation. For that is what the Parable of the Sower is about and the many warnings in the Bible that talk about believers falling away from the faith is about.

However, the "Elect" or those who have "root in God's Word" will not fall away, though. However, seeing we do not know who the Elect are, so we have to act in the present moment and abide in Christ and His word.

Quite frankly this is dead wrong. Christians can never be brought under condemnation as Christ received in Himself their condemnation and they receive His righteousness in it's place. Romans 8:1 & 2 Cor 5:21

There are many Christ will say, I never knew you, depart from me ye that worked iniquity (Also see Ezekiel 18 in relation to not knowing someone). These believers sure thought they knew Christ but they were surprised and in for a shock by what Christ said to them in Matthew 7. Would it not be in your best interest to find out why?

In context this was spoken to Israel and not to the church. Without a proper foundation any applications you draw from this are bound to be incorrect.

You need to taste of the goodness of Gods grace. You cannot go about and preach condemnation to all who fail to meet your preconceived notion of righteousness. Yours is a message of hate and not hope.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

Quite frankly this is dead wrong. Christians can never be brought under condemnation as Christ received in Himself their condemnation and they receive His righteousness in it's place. Romans 8:1 & 2 Cor 5:21

In context this was spoken to Israel and not to the church. Without a proper foundation any applications you draw from this are bound to be incorrect.

You need to taste of the goodness of Gods grace. You cannot go about and preach condemnation to all who fail to meet your preconceived notion of righteousness. Yours is a message of hate and not hope.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Thanks but no thanks. There is no goodness in the OSAS version of God's grace for it allows for sin and evil. God is Holy and just. He cannot condone or allow anyone to do evil or to get away with sin. You are abusing the grace of God if you think it covers willful rebellion or unrepenant serious sin done in the present moment. To me, such a version of grace is pure evil. For he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that is born of God does righteousness (1 John 2:29).

 

[Jason0047]

Scripture provides reassurance to those who belong to Christ. Gods Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are His. Romans 8:16

Tares are very busy looking like wheat but the angels of God will sort them out on judgment day. Those who are most religious will be turned away when they appear before Christ. It is not their works that are considered but their heart knowledge of Christ. Like the tombs which were white on the outside but filled inwardly with the bones of dead men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Actually, Jesus will send forth his angels and will remove all who do iniquity (sin) within his kingdom.

Matthew 13:41
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity"

So if you are claiming to be a part of Christ's kingdom and you are working iniquity (sin), you will be removed by Christ's angels at the end of the harvest (i.e. the Judgment).

As for Romans 8:16: This is in context to the faithful believer and not for the believer who thinks they can sin and still be saved. For there are going to be believers who will be surprised that they will be cast out from Christ's presence. The reason Jesus gives us as to why He tells them to depart from Him is that they worked iniquity (sin).

 

[Jason0047]

John 6:39

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, .. that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

This is talking about the faithful elect who do what Jesus says (And it is not talking about the unfaithful and wicked servant). Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46). Also, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Hebrews 5:9).

 

[Jason0047]

Those who proclaim their deeds in the name of God, yet were rejected as one whom God did not know, did not have His Spirit nor did they respond to God's conviction, but were religious people with a religious conscience using the name of God to appease their conscience and make a fair show in the flesh. They were never born of the Spirit and God's incorruptible seed. The new birth never took place in them and they were never placed in Christ. They did what was right in their own eyes and used the written word in many cases to justify themselves as God's people. They were never cleansed from their sin and were never saved by the grace of God through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

Those who have believed upon the Son have life and are God's elect, they have the Spirit and have been begotten of the incorruptible seed of God's word through the new birth. The Parable of the Sower illustrates those who have heard and try to conform to the gospel without the Spirit of grace. These are types of hearers that correspond to the condition of the heart in receiving the seed that was sown, one by the wayside being trodden down, another on stony ground and the other among thorns. None of these conditions of the heart were able to receive the seed to have it take root in them. One had the seed snatched away by Satan, another it was burned up and the third was choked yielding no fruit. They were not born again of the incorruptible seed because the condition of the soil of their heart could not receive it. However, the seed fell on the fourth hearer who had good soil and the seed took root and yielded fruit.

No true believer thinks they are saved by their own works. But you are only fooling yourself if you think God is going to save the unfaithful and wicked servant over the faithful and righteous servant (who did was pleasing and good in his sight --- by allowing the LORD to do the "good work" in them). For God ultimately does the "good work" in the believer. It is not the believer doing the work all by his own power. That is why it is not Works Salvationism. Those who are truly saved have Christ living within them and therefore, they will have "good fruit" to show for it and not evil fruit.

I have heard certain OSAS proponents who claim they can do both good and evil boast about their good works. This is where they will plea with Christ that they did good, but in reality they worked sin (Because they never truly repented of their sins). This is why Jesus will say to them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin).

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Context: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-answer-few-questions-me-21.html#post2219168

You are abusing the grace of God if you think it covers willful rebellion or unrepenant serious sin done in the present moment. To me, such a version of grace is pure evil.

It seems to me, that you are still misunderstanding Roger. For, Roger did not say that he thinks God's grace "covers willful rebellion or unrepenant serious sin done in the present moment" -- this is something that you have assumed, probably based on your previous interactions with "OSAS Proponents". I don't even think Roger is advocating OSAS, I think he's simply stating that your rigid interpretation is flawed.

And just as a friendly FYI: "Thank, but no thanks" is perceived (by many) as condescending and thus, insulting. You often make similar remarks -- I, for one, do not appreciate the repugnant remarks which I brought to your attention previously:

Link: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-answer-few-questions-me-19.html#post2215992

 

[Jason0047]

Context: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-answer-few-questions-me-21.html#post2219168



It seems to me, that you are still misunderstanding Roger. For, Roger did not say that he thinks God's grace "covers willful rebellion or unrepenant serious sin done in the present moment" -- this is something that you have assumed, probably based on your previous interactions with "OSAS Proponents". I don't even think Roger is advocating OSAS, I think he's simply stating that your rigid interpretation is flawed.

And just as a friendly FYI: "Thank, but no thanks" is perceived (by many) as condescending and thus, insulting. You often make similar remarks -- I, for one, do not appreciate the repugnant remarks which I brought to your attention previously:

Link: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-answer-few-questions-me-19.html#post2215992

I am merely stating what he believes. So it is not an insulting remark because he did not object and say that is not what he believed. Notice how did not take it as an insult and notice how he did not try to explain anything with Scripture in regards to that comment? Most here believe they can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved.

Just check out this poll here:

Do you believe you can die in unrepentant sin (Such as lying etc) and still be saved? - View Poll Results

Roger sides with many in that poll and he does not disagree with them.

Yes, Roger is saying that one will not have a desire to not want to sin (and they want to do what is good), but the deceptive part of what he teaches is that he backtracks and still is saying that your future and present sins are covered if you do sin, though (Which is a doctrine of immorality or in giving a person a license to sin).

See this post here.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

but the deceptive part of what he teaches is that he backtracks and still is saying that your future and present sins are covered if you do sin, though (Which is a doctrine of immorality or in giving a person a license to sin).

No - this is not deceptive, a "doctrine of immorality", a "license to sin", or any other ridiculously twisted angle you have tried to attach to our understanding of God's gift to us. Our understanding is simple: God's grace is sufficient.

 

[BenFTW]

Thanks but no thanks. There is no goodness in the OSAS version of God's grace for it allows for sin and evil. God is Holy and just. He cannot condone or allow anyone to do evil or to get away with sin. You are abusing the grace of God if you think it covers willful rebellion or unrepenant serious sin done in the present moment. To me, such a version of grace is pure evil. For he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that is born of God does righteousness (1 John 2:29).

How is anyone getting away with sin when Jesus paid the price for that sin? It doesn't make sense. Jesus paid the price for all sin for all time and has perfected forever those that believe in Him. This is scriptural. Your fear is unmerited and also, your idea of God's holiness is tainted to not see that our sin is washed in the blood of Jesus and therefore His holiness is unaffected by our sinning.

He is just and he is holy and our sin doesn't change that because he isn't going light on our sin. Jesus died for our sin! His Son died on the cross for it; how light is that? The price has been paid, stop associating grace as a license to sin because no one is arguing that. However, I will say, His grace is sufficient. You think God calls for a sinless life, but He doesn't. Its impossible. The only "sinless life" we as believers can live is that our sins are not held against us because Jesus took them away and paid their price at the cross. Our sins of scarlet are as white as snow, in Jesus Christ. That offends you. I know it does. It agitates you and infuriates you because all your efforts to save yourself are in vain. All that you do is but filthy rags in light of the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Jason, have you ever considered that the people who say, "Lord, Lord...", and boast in the things they have done in the Lord (such as casting our demons, healing the sick, etc) are ignorant of God's grace, or for that matter the Gospel? If such a scenario presented itself where you were to stand before God and be questioned as to why you should be saved would you start listing all the things you've done in His name? Even so, the things HE has done through you? Even giving him the glory for that which was done is not enough to save you. Do you see the mistake? They boast in their works and not in Christ. They boast in their self sufficiency instead of His grace that is sufficient through the blood of the Lamb.

Its sad... the "gospel" you preach Jason. It tears at the heart of the people that hear it, not because it convicts them as a sinner but because it leaves them hopeless. Jesus does not pass them a baton and say finish the race. If anything, He carries them through. Do you not see the error of your doctrines Jason? The Lord is holy and just and that is why the plan of redemption was set in place so that the price for sin would be paid. Our sin now is washed in the blood, it is the current reality you live in as you are walking in the light. No, walking in the light isn't a work of striving, its a matter of standing. You rest in Him and you are in the light, and when you sin you sin in the light. And what does the Word say? If in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses you.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

stop associating grace as a license to sin because no one is arguing that. However, I will say, His grace is sufficient. You think God calls for a sinless life, but He doesn't. Its impossible. The only "sinless life" we as believers can live is that our sins are not held against us because Jesus took them away and paid their price at the cross. Our sins of scarlet are as white as snow, in Jesus Christ.

BINGO! So clear to so many here, yet when we try to communicate this to Jason, it seems to fall upon deaf or stubborn ears.

 

[Jason0047]

No - this is not deceptive, a "doctrine of immorality", a "license to sin", or any other ridiculously twisted angle you have tried to attach to our understanding of God's gift to us. Our understanding is simple: God's grace is sufficient.

No. That would be like a father allowing his son to go and steal, sleep around with a bunch of girls, and bully other kids and still be accepted by his father (depsite such evils). For if a father were to allow a child to do evil, then he would be condoing of their son's evil. It is no different with God and his children. For he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that is born of God does righteousness (1 John 2:29).

 

[Jason0047]

How is anyone getting away with sin when Jesus paid the price for that sin? It doesn't make sense. Jesus paid the price for all sin for all time and has perfected forever those that believe in Him. This is scriptural. Your fear is unmerited and also, your idea of God's holiness is tainted to not see that our sin is washed in the blood of Jesus and therefore His holiness is unaffected by our sinning.

He is just and he is holy and our sin doesn't change that because he isn't going light on our sin. Jesus died for our sin! His Son died on the cross for it; how light is that? The price has been paid, stop associating grace as a license to sin because no one is arguing that. However, I will say, His grace is sufficient. You think God calls for a sinless life, but He doesn't. Its impossible. The only "sinless life" we as believers can live is that our sins are not held against us because Jesus took them away and paid their price at the cross. Our sins of scarlet are as white as snow, in Jesus Christ. That offends you. I know it does. It agitates you and infuriates you because all your efforts to save yourself are in vain. All that you do is but filthy rags in light of the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Jason, have you ever considered that the people who say, "Lord, Lord...", and boast in the things they have done in the Lord (such as casting our demons, healing the sick, etc) are ignorant of God's grace, or for that matter the Gospel? If such a scenario presented itself where you were to stand before God and be questioned as to why you should be saved would you start listing all the things you've done in His name? Even so, the things HE has done through you? Even giving him the glory for that which was done is not enough to save you. Do you see the mistake? They boast in their works and not in Christ. They boast in their self sufficiency instead of His grace that is sufficient through the blood of the Lamb.

Its sad... the "gospel" you preach Jason. It tears at the heart of the people that hear it, not because it convicts them as a sinner but because it leaves them hopeless. Jesus does not pass them a baton and say finish the race. If anything, He carries them through. Do you not see the error of your doctrines Jason? The Lord is holy and just and that is why the plan of redemption was set in place so that the price for sin would be paid. Our sin now is washed in the blood, it is the current reality you live in as you are walking in the light. No, walking in the light isn't a work of striving, its a matter of standing. You rest in Him and you are in the light, and when you sin you sin in the light. And what does the Word say? If in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses you.

No dear sir. Your doctrine leads to immorality and sin and it does not lead to holiness. Saying that your future and present sin is automatically forgiven gives people the green light so sin at some point in their life with the thinking they are saved (Which is a license to sin). This would mean God would be condoning or approving of your evil if you did sin while under grace thinking you were saved. It's an evil doctrine of devils. Life teaches us that you cannot do evil and have your parents approve of your evil (or they will be just as guilty of the same crimes that you commit).

 

[WoundedWarrior]

No. That would be like a father allowing his son to go and steal, sleep around with a bunch of girls, and bully other kids and still be accepted by his father (depsite such evils). For if a father were to allow a child to do evil, then he would be condoing of their son's evil. It is no different with God and his children. For he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that is born of God does righteousness (1 John 2:29).

Have you ever read the story of the prodigal son?

Check it out: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+15:11-32&version=NIV

Did you know that we who are saved have a New Spirit while also retaining these old fleshy bodies?
If so, did you know that our flesh can still sin -- even while we have this new Spirit within us?
Can you imagine what it would be like -- to live with two (or more) consciousnesses?

 

[WoundedWarrior]

No dear sir. Your doctrine leads to immorality and sin and it does not lead to holiness. Saying that your future and present sin is automatically forgiven gives people the green light so sin at some point in their life with the thinking they are saved (Which is a license to sin). This would mean God would be condoning or approving of your evil if you did sin while under grace thinking you were saved. It's an evil doctrine of devils. Life teaches us that you cannot do evil and have your parents approve of your evil (or they will be just as guilty of the same crimes that you commit).

There is absolutely nothing about your reply, Jason, that leads me to believe that your words are words of Truth. There is no love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, or self-control. This is evident throughout your conversations here on CC.

You attempt to use scripture to reprove others, yet you need to look at yourself first. Fruits, man, fruits...

 

[Magenta]

Good question. What do you think?

I think that when someone's conscience is seared, they reject the promptings of the Holy Spirit of God to turn away from their sin. People find all kinds of ways to rationalize and justify the sinful things they want to do. Even so, if we learn from our mistakes, and eventually do turn from sin, all is not lost, for God works all things to the good for those who love Him. Our God is an awesome God!

 

[phil112]

No - this is not deceptive, a "doctrine of immorality", a "license to sin", or any other ridiculously twisted angle you have tried to attach to our understanding of God's gift to us. Our understanding is simple: God's grace is sufficient.

Are you going to sin again?

 

[Jason0047]

There is absolutely nothing about your reply, Jason, that leads me to believe that your words are words of Truth. There is no love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, or self-control. This is evident throughout your conversations here on CC.

You attempt to use scripture to reprove others, yet you need to look at yourself first. Fruits, man, fruits...

My love is caring for people's souls and not wanting them to approve of evil. For if you had a heated conversation with a loved one that you wanted them to stop drinking or they were going to end up killing themselves and those around them (One could think you were being mean or uncaring with them). But that is not the case at all. The only way you would be mean towards them is if you said bad things about them that were not true and you dragged them down instead of giving them hope. In other words, you are seeing what you want to see because you are trying to protect a belief (that cannot be found in the Scriptures).

 

[dcontroversal]

No - this is not deceptive, a "doctrine of immorality", a "license to sin", or any other ridiculously twisted angle you have tried to attach to our understanding of God's gift to us. Our understanding is simple: God's grace is sufficient.

Jesus said concerning the Pharisees...they encompass land and sea to make one (disciple) and in doing so make them two fold the child of hell....not only do they have to get over the fact they are lost and need Jesus they also have to get over the false religious dogma that they are steeped in and stuck in......such is the case with all who teach a sinless perfectionism and religiously dogmatic works for salvation...double blind!

 

[Jason0047]

Have you ever read the story of the prodigal son?

Check it out: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+15%3A11-32&version=NIV

Did you know that we who are saved have a New Spirit while also retaining these old fleshy bodies?
If so, did you know that our flesh can still sin -- even while we have this new Spirit within us?
Can you imagine what it would be like -- to live with two (or more) consciousnesses?

The father said twice to his son that he was "DEAD" and that he was "ALIVE AGAIN." This is speaking in spiritual temrs. The son was dead spiritually when he went prodigal, but he became alive again spiritually when he came home trying to make things right by his father.