Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[KenAllan]

Actually we are still under the Law. The Law has not been done away with yet. The Law was given to show us that by our efforts we could not keep the Law. It was never meant by God that we should keep the Law but that we should rely on Faith instead.

Romans 4:1-5
[SUP]1 [/SUP] What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness

 

[valiant]

What else could you do but laugh, (out of frustation that is) because you can't or won't ascertain historically documented truth. Now Budman, (is that your username for the partaking of the "king of beers?") if "you' don't beleive it was the Catholic Church that compiled the bible, maybe you can enlighten all of us with historic documentation on who did!

Well actually it was God. He caused the Gospels and Acts to be written and ensured that they were seen as authoritative by the time of Justin Martyr, long before the Roman Catholic church was formed by seceding from the Catholic church in 8th century AD. The letters of Paul were already seen as Scripture by the time Peter wrote his second letter (2 Peter 3.16). The letters of Peter and John were certainly seen as Scripture by mid second century AD. They are found for example in the canon revealed in the Muratorian fragment. Irenaeus cited all the books in our present New Testament as Scripture apart from one very minor one which was not really citable. Thus by his day the canon was clearly accepted.

So all the claims of the Roman Catholic church to have established the canon in 4th century AD (when the Roman Catholic church did not even exist) are wholly false. The Council of Ephesus ratified the books which it contained but did not decide on them. And the Council of Ephesus was NOT a Roman Catholic council. It was a council composed of independent churches gathered together..

Your own Martin Luther seemed to know who did, when he wrote in his Commentary on St. John: "We are compelled to concede to the Papists (Catholics) that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all." So are you calling the father of your own reformation a liar?

LOL you are citing history according to the Roman Catholic church. But Martin Luther was NOT the father of the reformation. He was just prominent in Germany. The reformation was already taking place in many countries due to the spread of the word of God. The reformation in England began before Martin Luther arose. It also occurred in Switzerland and many other areas. YOU NEED TO READ RELIABLE HISTORY BOOKS. Martin Luther was simply the most colourful but he had the disadvantage that he did not have access to reliable history books. Thus his words on such subjects should be taken with pinch of salt. He never full freed himself from the errors he had learned under Rome.

 

[valiant]

Hi blondie. I could probably try to answer your question, but it would be short and probably wouldn't help you understand exactly how Exodus 20 is studied. Yours is a very common misunderstanding for Protestants and the best answer I've read comes from Tim Staples who was a Southern Baptist who eventually converted to Catholicism. If you want to read it I think it might help.

So you are saying that he is Roman Catholic convert who has been brainwashed by the Roman Catholic church, and is therefore totally biased and unreliable? Well we can agree on that.


He says....

My mother recently sent me an email from a friend who was being challenged by an Evangelical to re-consider her Catholicism. He claimed the Catholic Church had perniciously omitted what he referred to as the second commandment—“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth” (Exodus 20:4)—in order to keep the Catholic faithful in darkness as to the truth that they should not have statues in their churches.

Well the Evangelical was perfectly correct. That is exactly what the Roman Catholic church has done. It is an unquestionable fact.

Despite appearances,

Aha, so you admit that it appears to be true that the Roman Catholic church have perverted the Scriptures.

we know Exodus 20 is not a prohibition against making “any likeness of anything” in a strict sense

No we don't. We know that it IS a prohibition against making a likeness of anything in heaven or earth.

because we clearly see God either commanding or praising the making of images and statues in multiple biblical texts (see Exodus 25:18; Numbers 21:8-9; I Kings 6:23-28, 9:3).

No we do not. The cherubim were symbolic and were NOT in the likeness of anything in heaven and earth. They were a mixture of different aspects of earth. Furthermore their design was of God and they were not visible to men. No one was allowed to see them. There was no danger that men would bow down to them or worship them. So to use them as an example of graven images is hypocritical and deceitful.

Just five chapters after this so-called prohibition against statues, for example, God commands Moses to make statues representing two angels to be placed over the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant:
And you shall make two cherubim of gold… The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another…. And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark… There I will meet with you (Ex. 25:18-22).

Typical RC deceit. They were not statues of angels. They were symbolic of creation worshiping God. And they were never visible to men.

And besides if God wishes to make a specific exception to a rule with suitable safeguards He is surely permitted to do so? That does not justify disobeying His commandment!!!!!!

 

[KennethC]

I agree that he has said some outrageous things. Doesn't mean doctrine is in jeopardy. He can still speak his mind and remember he is human too, prone to mistakes. I value the holy bible. I believe it is the inspired Word of God. I place the Word of God over the Pope

Yes he can make mistakes, but when he calls for believers to worship side by side with unbelievers ans say they worship the same God that is not a mistake.

Also what does the Catholic church say about divorce, and I bring this up because I just saw a thing on the news where the Pope is going to address this issue. The last time I checked when I was in the church they forbid divorce all together, and forbid marriage to divorces.

Lord Jesus however says that divorce is not allowed unless it is done because of sexual immorality (adultery, fornication).
Apostle Paul said that if a believer marries and unbeliever and then later divorces her, then they are not held in sin for doing that.

So does the Catholic church completely forbid divorce and remarriage still even though the bible does not ???

 

[kenthomas27]

So you are saying that he is Roman Catholic convert who has been brainwashed by the Roman Catholic church, and is therefore totally biased and unreliable? Well we can agree on that.


He says....



Well the Evangelical was perfectly correct. That is exactly what the Roman Catholic church has done. It is an unquestionable fact.



Aha, so you admit that it appears to be true that the Roman Catholic church have perverted the Scriptures.



No we don't. We know that it IS a prohibition against making a likeness of anything in heaven or earth.



No we do not. The cherubim were symbolic and were NOT in the likeness of anything in heaven and earth. They were a mixture of different aspects of earth. Furthermore their design was of God and they were not visible to men. No one was allowed to see them. There was no danger that men would bow down to them or worship them. So to use them as an example of graven images is hypocritical and deceitful.



Typical RC deceit. They were not statues of angels. They were symbolic of creation worshiping God. And they were never visible to men.

I think what you might claim is a graven image might be symbolic to me and vice versa. Do you think of the very cross that hangs on the walls of most churches as a graven image? After all, it's akin to hanging a gallows or an electric chair as an image of what it represents and the image itself is not biblically supported. However, you can justify the cross because of the SYMBOL it represents to you - that of salvation through Christ's sacrifice. Are you committing sin by worshiping a graven image? No! I don't think you are because I understand what the cross means to you. And because I share the same faith I understand the symbolic nature of the cross along with many many other symbols that remind me of the Power and Glory of the God Almighty of Israel. Of course I don't worship the wood or stone nor do I worship a so-called god, but all of us take refuge with the symbols.

You also said "And they were never visible to men. ". Would you also refute scripture while you support it? Did, in your understanding of scripture, the Angel Gabrielle appear to Mary or not?

And besides if God wishes to make a specific exception to a rule with suitable safeguards He is surely permitted to do so? That does not justify disobeying His commandment!!!!!!

Are you suggesting that God is contradictory? That He commands one thing and does another? That is not the God I am acquainted with. Of course He COULD do whatever He wished, however that's not the God I worship.

 

[fordman]

Well actually it was God. He caused the Gospels and Acts to be written and ensured that they were seen as authoritative by the time of Justin Martyr, long before the Roman Catholic church was formed by seceding from the Catholic church in 8th century AD.

And you get your info from who again?? Oh yeah, your beloved Encyclopedia Britannica.

Besides Pop's.... I didn't say the Catholic Church "wrote" the bible, but "compiled" it! So get it right next time!! Sheesh!

I also can't help but notice you and others sometime refure to the Catholic Church as the 'Roman Catholic Church'. Do you know the differce? Being a Brit you should know.

And let me also ask you this ol' Timer....... Do you beleive that the true presence of Christ in The Holy Eucharist to be strickly a Catholic Belief, be it the Eastern or Latin Rites?

LOL you are citing history according to the Roman Catholic church. But Martin Luther was NOT the father of the reformation. He was just prominent in Germany. The reformation was already taking place in many countries due to the spread of the word of God. The reformation in England began before Martin Luther arose. It also occurred in Switzerland and many other areas. YOU NEED TO READ RELIABLE HISTORY BOOKS. Martin Luther was simply the most colourful but he had the disadvantage that he did not have access to reliable history books. Thus his words on such subjects should be taken with pinch of salt. He never full freed himself from the errors he had learned under Rome.

Just more personal opinions Pop's, nothing more. Why don't you ever quote from these "reliable history books" and reveil their source? So sorry Pop's just your word doesn't cut it {rolling eyes}
　

Pax Christi

"from henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ---Luke 1:48

 

[KenAllan]

Its interesting that everybody is focusing on Martin Luther. Martin Luther did return to corrupted Roman Catholic Church.

It was John Calvin and others who took up the task of bringing the Word of God, the Scriptures to the World. John Calvin was greater than Martin Luther.

As far as the Roman Catholic Church compiling the Bible, they did not compile the Bible. It was not until A.D. 397 that the Roman Catholic Church claimed to compile the Bible. IF the Roman Catholic Church WAS around the time Jesus walked on the Earth, why did they wait until A.D 397 to compile the Bible??????????????????????????????????????????????????

The Bible was compiled by the True Christian Church centuries BEFORE the Roman Catholic Church was created!

See how the Catholics see nothing wrong with lying?

Ephesians 4:25
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor," for we are members of one another.

So tell me fordman, when will you put aside your lying and follow Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

 

[KenAllan]

Luke 11:27-28
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!"
[SUP]28 [/SUP] But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

All those who hear the Word of God and keep it are MORE Blessed than Mary!

Therefore every True Christian who hears the Word of God and keeps it ARE MORE BLESSED THAN MARY!

 

[MikeHenderson]

Every time Pope Francis opens up his mouth, lies issue forth like a stream of water!

 

[MikeHenderson]

I agree with you Kenallan, we are Blessed more than Mary, so why are you Catholics not bowing down to us?

 

[Mec99]

Why do you peoples think fordman will ever listen to the Truth in the Scriptures?

Look at the verse he has put at the bottom of his page. He quotes Luke 1:48. Mary is fordmans God.

Fordman actually believe the lie that Mary is Blessed more than us. Jesus Himself in Luke 11:27-28 tells us we are greater , more Blessed than Mary.

So tell me fordman when will you reject Mary as your God and follow the True God instead????

 

[mwc68]

Why do you peoples think fordman will ever listen to the Truth in the Scriptures?

Look at the verse he has put at the bottom of his page. He quotes Luke 1:48. Mary is fordmans God.

Fordman actually believe the lie that Mary is Blessed more than us. Jesus Himself in Luke 11:27-28 tells us we are greater , more Blessed than Mary.

So tell me fordman when will you reject Mary as your God and follow the True God instead????

When will you stop these ridiculous accusations?

 

[Jackson123]

Yes he can make mistakes, but when he calls for believers to worship side by side with unbelievers ans say they worship the same God that is not a mistake.

Also what does the Catholic church say about divorce, and I bring this up because I just saw a thing on the news where the Pope is going to address this issue. The last time I checked when I was in the church they forbid divorce all together, and forbid marriage to divorces.

Lord Jesus however says that divorce is not allowed unless it is done because of sexual immorality (adultery, fornication).
Apostle Paul said that if a believer marries and unbeliever and then later divorces her, then they are not held in sin for doing that.

So does the Catholic church completely forbid divorce and remarriage still even though the bible does not ???

Christian doesn't have the same God with unbeliever.


but Catholic have the same God with Muslim which is categorized as unbeliever because do not believe in Jesus.

So basically, Pope is somewhat right. He have the same God with Muslim and Muslim God is Allah.

 

[mwc68]

Christian doesn't have the same God with unbeliever.


but Catholic have the same God with Muslim which is categorized as unbeliever because do not believe in Jesus.

So basically, Pope is somewhat right. He have the same God with Muslim and Muslim God is Allah.

umm ok? This is your logic? (Hears the Twilight Zone theme)

 

[KenAllan]

This is what Pope Francis said to the Muslims. "We must never forget that they “profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, who will judge humanity on the last day”.

Its interesting to note that the Muslims reject Jesus Christ as being God, but yet Pope Francis declares they adore Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ IS God and He is a merciful God. So how can Pope Francis declare the Muslims adore Jesus Christ?

The only way for Pope Francis to declare the Muslims worship Jesus Christ is because he does not understand Islam or it could be that Pope Francis does not believe that Jesus Christ is God.

I'm in favor of the latter.

I'm totally convinced by the actions and words of Pope Francis, that he has never accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Otherwise why would Pope Francis say the Muslims Worship the same God as us True Christians?

It looks like Pope Francis is trying to bring the god Allah into the Catholic Church for the Catholics to Worship as their God.

If I were you mwc68 i would run like hell away from the Roman Catholic Church before its too late and you are trapped in the Catholic Church.

 

[KenAllan]

Fordman, there is no difference between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[mwc68]

This is what Pope Francis said to the Muslims. "We must never forget that they “profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, who will judge humanity on the last day”.

Its interesting to note that the Muslims reject Jesus Christ as being God, but yet Pope Francis declares they adore Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ IS God and He is a merciful God. So how can Pope Francis declare the Muslims adore Jesus Christ?

The only way for Pope Francis to declare the Muslims worship Jesus Christ is because he does not understand Islam or it could be that Pope Francis does not believe that Jesus Christ is God.

I'm in favor of the latter.

I'm totally convinced by the actions and words of Pope Francis, that he has never accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Otherwise why would Pope Francis say the Muslims Worship the same God as us True Christians?

It looks like Pope Francis is trying to bring the god Allah into the Catholic Church for the Catholics to Worship as their God.

If I were you mwc68 i would run like hell away from the Roman Catholic Church before its too late and you are trapped in the Catholic Church.

I don't think that's what he's doing. I've researched this since our beloved Mec99 said that Pope Francis said Muslims are our brothers in Christ. I knew this couldn't be true and turns out it wasn't. I sincerely believe the Pope is trying to find any common ground that can maybe start dialogue similar to what I do here at CC. Usually when we find common ground, the conversation becomes more civil. I really. feel sorry for Pope Francis because of the delusions of granduer yall place on him

 

[MikeHenderson]

Pope Francis claims that the Muslims, who Worship Allah as their God, are together with us in adoring the same God. It sounds to me that Pope Francis is declaring that he also Worships Allah as his God.

Therefore if Pope Francis IS Worshiping Allah as his God, this then proves that Pope Francis is not a True Christian. But a wolf in sheep clothing doing the will of his God, Satan.

How much longer mwc68 will you continue to support the Catholic Church seeing as Pope Francis has now brought into the Catholic Church a false God for you to Worship?

What will you do mwc68 when Pope Francis demands that you now bow down to Allah?

 

[blondieindahouse]

I'm learning a new song right now cause I can't sleep. Why are you up, if you don't mind my asking?

I usually dont go to bed until 12 or 1 sometimes 2 or 3. I stay busy online researching and studying.

 

[mwc68]

Pope Francis claims that the Muslims, who Worship Allah as their God, are together with us in adoring the same God. It sounds to me that Pope Francis is declaring that he also Worships Allah as his God.

Therefore if Pope Francis IS Worshiping Allah as his God, this then proves that Pope Francis is not a True Christian. But a wolf in sheep clothing doing the will of his God, Satan.

How much longer mwc68 will you continue to support the Catholic Church seeing as Pope Francis has now brought into the Catholic Church a false God for you to Worship?

What will you do mwc68 when Pope Francis demands that you now bow down to Allah?

That's a pretty big IF.