How do commentators know what the shadows of Christ are?

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A

atwhatcost

Guest
#1
I'm in Numbers 10, and I read God tells Moses to tell the people to make two silver trumpets, each with an every day something-like-a-PA-system use. Seems simple enough to me. They're in the wilderness. Roughly 3 million people plus their herds have to travel promptly at the fire-cloud's (God's) command.

But, noper. That's not all of it. It foreshadows, it speaks of Christ, it speaks of the gospel, it's all about God. That's what my Dead Guys (commentators) are telling me, and darn if it doesn't seem right.

How do they know all this stuff? What did they do right to figure all this out? Because all I was being amazed about was they made two silver -- really good quality silver -- trumpets in the wilderness by hand, because God told them to.

Let me show you what they said just about the first part of Numbers 10.

Matthew Henry:
Numbers 10:1-10


Here are directions concerning the public notices to be given the people by sound of trumpet. Their laws in every case were to be Divine, therefore, even in this matter Moses is directed. These trumpets typify the preached gospel. It sounds an alarm to sinners, calls them to repent, proclaims liberty to the captives and slaves of Satan, and collects the worshippers of God. It directs and encourages their heavenly journey; stirs them up to combat against the world and sin, encouraging them with the assurance of victory. It leads their attention to the sacrifice of Christ, and shows the Lord's presence for their protection. It is also necessary that the gospel trumpet give a distinct sound, according to the persons addressed, or the end proposed; whether to convince, humble, console, exhort, reprove, or teach. The sounding of the trumpet of the gospel is God's ordinance, and demands the attention of all to whom it is sent.



John Gill:
Numbers 10:2
Make thee two trumpets of silver,.... A metal very valuable and precious, durable, and fit for sound; only two are ordered, Aaron having but two sons, Eleazar and Ithamar, who were to blow with them, Num_10:8; for though Moses's order is, "make thee", or for thee, yet not for his own use, but for the priests to use when he should order them: the Targum of Jonathan adds, of what is thine own, as if they were to be made at his own expense; but others say, and which is more probable, that they were to be made at the public expense: Josephus (i) gives a description of them, and says, that they were little less than a cubit long, the pipe of them narrow, but broader about the mouth to receive the breath, and ended like a bell; they seem to be much of the shape of our trumpets: these trumpets were an emblem of the ministry of the Gospel, called the great trumpet, and in the ministration of which, the preachers of it are to lift up their voice like a trumpet, to show men their perishing condition through sin, and to encourage them, as such who are ready to perish, to come to Christ for salvation, Isa_27:13; the Gospel is comparable to silver, being fetched out of the mines of the sacred Scriptures, pure and free from the dross of errors and human inventions, will bear to be tried by the standard of the word, and is lasting and durable, yea, the everlasting Gospel; as well as valuable and precious, containing the unsearchable riches of Christ, &c. treasures of divine truths, comparable to gold, silver, and precious stones; yea, it is more valuable and precious than silver, not to be obtained by that, more profitable and useful, more satisfying and lasting: the number two may be applicable to the two dispensations, under which the Gospel has been ministered, directing to the same Saviour, and to the same way of salvation, by his grace, his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; and to the two Testaments, which agree in the same truths respecting his person, offices, obedience, sufferings, and death; and to the prophets and apostles of both dispensations and testaments, who have united in laying Christ as the foundation; and also to the two witnesses that are still to prophecy in sackcloth, that is, preach the Gospel and blow the trumpet of it: Rev_11:3.


of an whole piece shall thou make them; of one solid mass of silver, beaten with an hammer, as Jarchi, such a piece as the candlestick was made of in Exo_25:31, where the same word is used as here, and rendered "beaten work": this may denote the pure and unmixed Gospel of Christ, having no dross, nor bad nor base metal of human corruptions in it; no jar, discord, or contradiction in it, but all in perfect harmony and agreement; and the whole of it, no part of it dropped or concealed; and the ministry of it, laboured by those employed in it, who study to show themselves workmen that need not be ashamed:


that thou mayest use them for the calling the assembly; the body of the people of Israel, either on civil or sacred accounts, see Joe_1:15; the ministry of the Gospel is for the calling and gathering of souls to Christ, and to his churches; even the remnant of Israel, all that are given to Christ and redeemed by his blood, whether Jews or Gentiles; these are gathered out of the world, which is an act of distinguishing grace; it is by means of the Gospel trumpet that they are awakened, and quickened, and directed to Christ:


and for the journeying of the camps: both of the four camps of the Israelites, and the camp of the Levites, to direct them when they should set forward on a journey: and of like use is the ministry of the Gospel; saints are pilgrims and travellers here; they are passing through a wilderness, their way is attended with many difficulties; Canaan is the place they are travelling to, and the Gospel is of singular use to them by the way, both to refresh them with its joyful sound, and to direct them in the path in which they should go.


(i) Antiqu. l. 3. c. 12. sect. 6.


Adam Clarke:
Numbers 10:2


Make thee two trumpets of silver - The necessity of such instruments will at once appear, when the amazing extent of this numerous army is considered; and how even the sound of two trumpets could reach them all is difficult to conceive; but we may suppose that, when they were sounded, the motion of those that were within reach of that sound taught the others in succession what they should do.
As the trumpets were to be blown by the priests only, the sons of Aaron, there were only two, because there were only two such persons to use them at this time, Eleazar and Ithamar. In the time of Joshua there were seven trumpets used by the priests, but these were made, according to our text, of rams’ horns, Jos_6:4. In the time of Solomon, when the priests had greatly increased, there were 120 priests sounding with trumpets, 2Ch_5:12.
Josephus intimates that one of these trumpets was always used to call the nobles together, the other to assemble the people; see Num_10:4. It is possible that these trumpets were made of different lengths and wideness, and consequently they would emit different tones. Thus the sound itself would at once show which was the summons for the congregation, and which for the princes only. These trumpets were allowed to be emblematical of the sound of the Gospel, and in this reference they appear to be frequently used. Of the fate of the trumpets of the sanctuary, See the note on Exo_25:31.

----
See? Really feels right the the trumpets represent the true gospel, but how do they see that and I didn't? What did they know that I don't? Did they have Dead Guys who taught them this stuff? Is that how it passes along? Because it's not intutive. It feels right. How do I know they're right if I didn't get any of that from this verse though?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
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#2
I'm in Numbers 10, and I read God tells Moses to tell the people to make two silver trumpets, each with an every day something-like-a-PA-system use. Seems simple enough to me. They're in the wilderness. Roughly 3 million people plus their herds have to travel promptly at the fire-cloud's (God's) command.

But, noper. That's not all of it. It foreshadows, it speaks of Christ, it speaks of the gospel, it's all about God. That's what my Dead Guys (commentators) are telling me, and darn if it doesn't seem right.

How do they know all this stuff? What did they do right to figure all this out? Because all I was being amazed about was they made two silver -- really good quality silver -- trumpets in the wilderness by hand, because God told them to.

Let me show you what they said just about the first part of Numbers 10.

Matthew Henry:
Numbers 10:1-10


Here are directions concerning the public notices to be given the people by sound of trumpet. Their laws in every case were to be Divine, therefore, even in this matter Moses is directed. These trumpets typify the preached gospel. It sounds an alarm to sinners, calls them to repent, proclaims liberty to the captives and slaves of Satan, and collects the worshippers of God. It directs and encourages their heavenly journey; stirs them up to combat against the world and sin, encouraging them with the assurance of victory. It leads their attention to the sacrifice of Christ, and shows the Lord's presence for their protection. It is also necessary that the gospel trumpet give a distinct sound, according to the persons addressed, or the end proposed; whether to convince, humble, console, exhort, reprove, or teach. The sounding of the trumpet of the gospel is God's ordinance, and demands the attention of all to whom it is sent.



John Gill:
Numbers 10:2
Make thee two trumpets of silver,.... A metal very valuable and precious, durable, and fit for sound; only two are ordered, Aaron having but two sons, Eleazar and Ithamar, who were to blow with them, Num_10:8; for though Moses's order is, "make thee", or for thee, yet not for his own use, but for the priests to use when he should order them: the Targum of Jonathan adds, of what is thine own, as if they were to be made at his own expense; but others say, and which is more probable, that they were to be made at the public expense: Josephus (i) gives a description of them, and says, that they were little less than a cubit long, the pipe of them narrow, but broader about the mouth to receive the breath, and ended like a bell; they seem to be much of the shape of our trumpets: these trumpets were an emblem of the ministry of the Gospel, called the great trumpet, and in the ministration of which, the preachers of it are to lift up their voice like a trumpet, to show men their perishing condition through sin, and to encourage them, as such who are ready to perish, to come to Christ for salvation, Isa_27:13; the Gospel is comparable to silver, being fetched out of the mines of the sacred Scriptures, pure and free from the dross of errors and human inventions, will bear to be tried by the standard of the word, and is lasting and durable, yea, the everlasting Gospel; as well as valuable and precious, containing the unsearchable riches of Christ, &c. treasures of divine truths, comparable to gold, silver, and precious stones; yea, it is more valuable and precious than silver, not to be obtained by that, more profitable and useful, more satisfying and lasting: the number two may be applicable to the two dispensations, under which the Gospel has been ministered, directing to the same Saviour, and to the same way of salvation, by his grace, his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; and to the two Testaments, which agree in the same truths respecting his person, offices, obedience, sufferings, and death; and to the prophets and apostles of both dispensations and testaments, who have united in laying Christ as the foundation; and also to the two witnesses that are still to prophecy in sackcloth, that is, preach the Gospel and blow the trumpet of it: Rev_11:3.


of an whole piece shall thou make them; of one solid mass of silver, beaten with an hammer, as Jarchi, such a piece as the candlestick was made of in Exo_25:31, where the same word is used as here, and rendered "beaten work": this may denote the pure and unmixed Gospel of Christ, having no dross, nor bad nor base metal of human corruptions in it; no jar, discord, or contradiction in it, but all in perfect harmony and agreement; and the whole of it, no part of it dropped or concealed; and the ministry of it, laboured by those employed in it, who study to show themselves workmen that need not be ashamed:


that thou mayest use them for the calling the assembly; the body of the people of Israel, either on civil or sacred accounts, see Joe_1:15; the ministry of the Gospel is for the calling and gathering of souls to Christ, and to his churches; even the remnant of Israel, all that are given to Christ and redeemed by his blood, whether Jews or Gentiles; these are gathered out of the world, which is an act of distinguishing grace; it is by means of the Gospel trumpet that they are awakened, and quickened, and directed to Christ:


and for the journeying of the camps: both of the four camps of the Israelites, and the camp of the Levites, to direct them when they should set forward on a journey: and of like use is the ministry of the Gospel; saints are pilgrims and travellers here; they are passing through a wilderness, their way is attended with many difficulties; Canaan is the place they are travelling to, and the Gospel is of singular use to them by the way, both to refresh them with its joyful sound, and to direct them in the path in which they should go.


(i) Antiqu. l. 3. c. 12. sect. 6.


Adam Clarke:
Numbers 10:2


Make thee two trumpets of silver - The necessity of such instruments will at once appear, when the amazing extent of this numerous army is considered; and how even the sound of two trumpets could reach them all is difficult to conceive; but we may suppose that, when they were sounded, the motion of those that were within reach of that sound taught the others in succession what they should do.
As the trumpets were to be blown by the priests only, the sons of Aaron, there were only two, because there were only two such persons to use them at this time, Eleazar and Ithamar. In the time of Joshua there were seven trumpets used by the priests, but these were made, according to our text, of rams’ horns, Jos_6:4. In the time of Solomon, when the priests had greatly increased, there were 120 priests sounding with trumpets, 2Ch_5:12.
Josephus intimates that one of these trumpets was always used to call the nobles together, the other to assemble the people; see Num_10:4. It is possible that these trumpets were made of different lengths and wideness, and consequently they would emit different tones. Thus the sound itself would at once show which was the summons for the congregation, and which for the princes only. These trumpets were allowed to be emblematical of the sound of the Gospel, and in this reference they appear to be frequently used. Of the fate of the trumpets of the sanctuary, See the note on Exo_25:31.

----
See? Really feels right the the trumpets represent the true gospel, but how do they see that and I didn't? What did they know that I don't? Did they have Dead Guys who taught them this stuff? Is that how it passes along? Because it's not intutive. It feels right. How do I know they're right if I didn't get any of that from this verse though?
What these guys are doing is nothing more than speculation. They are assigning symbolism to things in scripture that rather rather strained. As to why these two trumpets were made of fine silver is really not clear. We only know that all things that were made that pertained to the the tabernacle and the priesthood were always made of precious materials of one type or another. There is no reason for them to speculate that these in any way represent the preaching of the gospel. I am not saying that it is not possible, only that they would have a difficult time of making a case for this. Trumpets in scripture serve three basic functions. They were used for battle, for calling an assembly of the people for a variety of reasons and not always to worship, and to herald the presence of the king. You see this in the imagery of the trumpets in Revelation.
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
#3
There is much symbolism of Christ in the OT. The more you read and understand the more you will see. The Holy Spirit will show you many of these truths but that isn't to say that everything every commentator says is correct.

I see many things from Scripture that "lines up" for lack of a better term. Many of these revelations from the Holy Spirit, I cannot necessarily prove by scripture but they fit and tie together other truths that can be proved. I look at these things as revelation from the Holy Spirit but I have no need to go and teach these obscure truths. Honestly they don't need to be taught to spread the Gospel or to set people free. I think it's sound practice to only teach truths that are well outlined in scripture.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#4
What these guys are doing is nothing more than speculation. They are assigning symbolism to things in scripture that rather rather strained. As to why these two trumpets were made of fine silver is really not clear. We only know that all things that were made that pertained to the the tabernacle and the priesthood were always made of precious materials of one type or another. There is no reason for them to speculate that these in any way represent the preaching of the gospel. I am not saying that it is not possible, only that they would have a difficult time of making a case for this. Trumpets in scripture serve three basic functions. They were used for battle, for calling an assembly of the people for a variety of reasons and not always to worship, and to herald the presence of the king. You see this in the imagery of the trumpets in Revelation.
Okay. (I seriously don't know, so I'm not going to know if this is any truer than what they say. I also don't know how you know what you know, other than you know more than I do. lol)

Can you fill me in on those trumpets in Revelation 8, because I'm not seeing a call to battle, a call for an assembly (which is good, since I wouldn't want to be assembled in the mist of that destruction), nor God showing up? (Seems like he was always there.) It does, somehow look all tabernacly though. Alter, incense burner, the shekinah glory everywhere, and those trumpets.

It really does look like the real deal, whereas the tabernacle was just a shadow, all that Man could handle of the reality of what it is to be with God. But, even John couldn't handle the real deal. Or, he did, but describing it was limited to experience. It seems related, which is where I get my "feels right." I just don't know how anyone knows this stuff soundly or how to get to the point of understanding it soundly. Too much hocus-pocus preaching and teaching to get how we can tell what is real from what someone merely wants to be real.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#5
There is much symbolism of Christ in the OT. The more you read and understand the more you will see. The Holy Spirit will show you many of these truths but that isn't to say that everything every commentator says is correct.

I see many things from Scripture that "lines up" for lack of a better term. Many of these revelations from the Holy Spirit, I cannot necessarily prove by scripture but they fit and tie together other truths that can be proved. I look at these things as revelation from the Holy Spirit but I have no need to go and teach these obscure truths. Honestly they don't need to be taught to spread the Gospel or to set people free. I think it's sound practice to only teach truths that are well outlined in scripture.
Kind of my problem right there. Have you checked out this board yet? Some folks believe you have to be perfected now or you aren't saved. Other's believe if you don't speak in tongues you aren't saved. Others think if you aren't healed you aren't getting all you can out of God. Others honestly think they speak for God. They are his messenger for us on this board. The one thing they all have in common? "The Holy Spirit has spoken to me and these are the passages in scripture to prove it."

I'm hearing a lot of static on my radio, and want to know how I know I'm picking up the right station.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
65,394
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#6
Jesus commends the faith of a child :)

http://www.openbible.info/topics/faith_of_a_child
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#7
I'm in Numbers 10, and I read God tells Moses to tell the people to make two silver trumpets, each with an every day something-like-a-PA-system use. Seems simple enough to me. They're in the wilderness. Roughly 3 million people plus their herds have to travel promptly at the fire-cloud's (God's) command.

But, noper. That's not all of it. It foreshadows, it speaks of Christ, it speaks of the gospel, it's all about God. That's what my Dead Guys (commentators) are telling me, and darn if it doesn't seem right.

How do they know all this stuff? What did they do right to figure all this out?

They were godly prayerful men, living godly obedient lives, in a strong Christian culture, which gave them knowledge of God, and in whom the illumination of the Holy Spirit, therefore, had much less hindrance.

The orthodox dead guys are far superior to so many commentaries of today.
 
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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
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#8
Can you fill me in on those trumpets in Revelation 8, because I'm not seeing a call to battle, a call for an assembly (which is good, since I wouldn't want to be assembled in the mist of that destruction), nor God showing up? (Seems like he was always there.) It does, somehow look all tabernacly though. Alter, incense burner, the shekinah glory everywhere, and those trumpets.
OK. But, remember, you asked for it. LOL
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
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Alabama
#9

Originally Posted by atwhatcost

Can you fill me in on those trumpets in Revelation 8, because I'm not seeing a call to battle, a call for an assembly (which is good, since I wouldn't want to be assembled in the mist of that destruction), nor God showing up? (Seems like he was always there.) It does, somehow look all tabernacly though. Alter, incense burner, the shekinah glory everywhere, and those trumpets.


I will PM you with the material. It is simply too much to post on a thread.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#10


I will PM you with the material. It is simply too much to post on a thread.
And you know, it's going to take me days to study it to understand it. lol But thank you.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#11
Jesus commends the faith of a child :)

http://www.openbible.info/topics/faith_of_a_child
I am one year closer to memories of childhood than you. lol (If you didn't get my humor, I'm saying I'm a year younger than you, so childhood is a distant memory to me, but not as distant as young adults think it ought to be.)

Faith isn't the issue. God's given me that. Some grownup understanding of his word would be nice. I know I have eternity with him, but eternity started 43 years ago, and I'm not feeling much more knowledgeable about the deep stuff of the Bible than I was 30 years ago. These dudes get it in layers I never have. I'm just checking to make sure it is good layers and not more malarkey. And who taught them that they know who to trust?

(I actually know John Gill spent decades with Jews studying the targums, but I don't know how Clark or Henry got their insights.)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,783
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#12
I'm safe when the types are divinely exposited by the writers of the NT, ...a little shakey when exposited by Origen and his ancestry.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#13
I'm safe when the types are divinely exposited by the writers of the NT, ...a little shakey when exposited by Origen and his ancestry.
So, I'm safe as long as I don't read Origen? Cool! Never have. lol
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
#14
Kind of my problem right there. Have you checked out this board yet? Some folks believe you have to be perfected now or you aren't saved. Other's believe if you don't speak in tongues you aren't saved. Others think if you aren't healed you aren't getting all you can out of God. Others honestly think they speak for God. They are his messenger for us on this board. The one thing they all have in common? "The Holy Spirit has spoken to me and these are the passages in scripture to prove it."


I'm hearing a lot of static on my radio, and want to know how I know I'm picking up the right station.
Brother, the best thing I can tell you is to study the scriptures for yourself, pray and seek God. Get to know the voice of God through his written word and then you will clearly recognize his voice in prayer. God's voice in prayer will sound like his voice in his written word and always agree with his written word.

When another brother ministers, his spirit will bear witness with your spirit. If he is speaking the truth it will agree with the written word of God.

Now you must also give as much grace as you have received. Even when people are wrong, they aren't always completely wrong and hardly ever maliciously wrong.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,783
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#15
So, I'm safe as long as I don't read Origen? Cool! Never have. lol
Origen, and his ancestry.

Anyhow the extra biblical interpretation of types is not inspired. Love 'em if you want.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#16
the feast of trumpets is known to be a shadow of christ because the feasts are identified as shadows in colossians 2...

these commentators basically have the symbolism correct...the feast of trumpets was a shadow of the great commission...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
65,394
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#17
the feast of trumpets is known to be a shadow of christ
because the feasts are identified as shadows in colossians 2...
For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)

The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, These are the appointed feasts of the Lord that you shall proclaim as holy convocations; they are my appointed feasts." Leviticus 23:1

The first four (spring) feasts, Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Weeks, are believed to have been fulfilled already by Christ.

Trumpets, the Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles are yet to be fulfilled.

Trumpets is thought to be related to the rapture of the church.


 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
65,394
33,297
113
#18
I am one year closer to memories of childhood than you. lol (If you didn't get my humor, I'm saying I'm a year younger than you, so childhood is a distant memory to me, but not as distant as young adults think it ought to be.)

Faith isn't the issue. God's given me that. Some grownup understanding of his word would be nice. I know I have eternity with him, but eternity started 43 years ago, and I'm not feeling much more knowledgeable about the deep stuff of the Bible than I was 30 years ago. These dudes get it in layers I never have. I'm just checking to make sure it is good layers and not more malarkey. And who taught them that they know who to trust?

(I actually know John Gill spent decades with Jews studying the targums, but I don't know how Clark or Henry got their insights.)
Yes, I understand that faith is not the issue... I just sometimes think, wow, all this complexity looks very impressive but simplicity is also a quality to be admired, hence, the faith of a child, in keeping it simple. I love learning and especially appreciate listening to those who distill their decades of study into easily digested soundbites for us/me, but honesty I do not retain a lot of it over a long period of time; even though I am inspired by it in the moment, the moment passes. Maybe I am just not a good student but I don't think my understanding suffers as a result. Or maybe it does and I am terribly deceived haha yeah I try to second guess things and it can drive me crazy, another reason why I embrace the idea of simplicity. I have listened to a lot of teachers over the last ten years and it all adds up and coalesces synergistically for me. Sometimes when I look at a page of writing, my mind just tuns to mush LOL. I cannot take it all in, it seems too much. I seem to be able to skim and get the idea of something though. Despite all that I do feel fairly fully engaged in my faith. There is always room for growth. Head knowledge is not always where it is at. Faith of a child...

That being said, I am impressed with the level of knowledge, learning, and understanding I have found here in my brothers and sisters in Christ. I enjoy reading many of the posts, especially if they are not too long. Sometimes I can take in a long one if it grabs me right away, I can get drawn in.

I mentioned this teacher in another thread recently:

Gary Hedrick, of Messianic Perspectives, on Kari55.com

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/messianic-perspectives/

Archived listening: Listen to Dr. Gary Hedrick - Messianic Perspectives Radio Online




 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#19
Brother, the best thing I can tell you is to study the scriptures for yourself, pray and seek God. Get to know the voice of God through his written word and then you will clearly recognize his voice in prayer. God's voice in prayer will sound like his voice in his written word and always agree with his written word.

When another brother ministers, his spirit will bear witness with your spirit. If he is speaking the truth it will agree with the written word of God.

Now you must also give as much grace as you have received. Even when people are wrong, they aren't always completely wrong and hardly ever maliciously wrong.
See above. Does it look like I'm not studying scripture? Does it look like I'm not seeking God?

I have never heard God's voice, except in his word. I have listened to preachers and gotten nonWord out of them. Spent a couple of decades wasting away under the words of men posing as the Word of God. Then a couple of decades trying to erase those words and replace them with God's. Trusting my spirit to be God's spirit is like trusting a used car salesman to be honesty with me. I've always managed to buy cars off them, but I don't ever recall actually getting the car they promised.

The first thing I was told by a coworker when I told him which church I was going to join was "don't drink the Kool-Aid. He wasn't wrong, although he missed the timing. The Jimmy-Jones of the church left the week I joined what was left of that church.

I don't like repeating past mistakes. (And that wasn't a mistake, since that's where I met hubby.) What you're preaching is all the past mistakes I've already made. God's more obvious than whoever is teaching you how to connect with him.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#20
Origen, and his ancestry.

Anyhow the extra biblical interpretation of types is not inspired. Love 'em if you want.
I was kidding around last time. Not so much this time. Origen -- some biblical exegesis type from the second century. Got some stuff right. Got some stuff wrong. No idea who his family tree was. I can't even get past The Duke of Buckingham -- my ancestor from King Henry VIII's time. (aka, the dude who killed my ancestor. lol) I can guarantee I won't be looking up Origen's ancestry any better. Don't care to, just to figure out what you're saying.

Want to try for plain English instead?