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But Jesus never mentioned a trump for rapture...NEITHER does Revelation... so you lose out .. 2 out of 3 witnesses, deny your story.. and confirm mine.
Has it not occurred to you that Paul wrote the same thing once in two different letters? If they were both in the same letter you might have a point.. as they are two different letters.. you don't.
Has it not occurred to you that Paul wrote the same thing once in two different letters? If they were both in the same letter you might have a point.. as they are two different letters.. you don't.
M
Sure friend, truth always prevails.
Quote:
"At first i was wondering why you would bring such an evil message to this room.... as the message ended I saw the point of it and realize that there is a severe following of a false Christ that is going to happen and it seems as if it is already in the process... if you look at government today and the attitudes and decisions of the people in command of todays government it can be nothing less than apparent to those that pay attention to it... LET EVERYONE PRAY THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT DECIEVED BY THIS FALSERY AND SAVED BY THE GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST... i feel that the message that everyone should be aware of is that there is no way to the Father except through Jesus and all prayers should be in his name... dont be decieved by the devils trickery thats what he is good at and followers should be aware... the truth will set you free... Amen"
Quote:
"At first i was wondering why you would bring such an evil message to this room.... as the message ended I saw the point of it and realize that there is a severe following of a false Christ that is going to happen and it seems as if it is already in the process... if you look at government today and the attitudes and decisions of the people in command of todays government it can be nothing less than apparent to those that pay attention to it... LET EVERYONE PRAY THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT DECIEVED BY THIS FALSERY AND SAVED BY THE GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST... i feel that the message that everyone should be aware of is that there is no way to the Father except through Jesus and all prayers should be in his name... dont be decieved by the devils trickery thats what he is good at and followers should be aware... the truth will set you free... Amen"
OH REALLY?
then where's the proof of it in the early church writings?
you say Christ taught it, you're making a historical claim... you're saying that this teaching will be evident within the second and third century church.
no pre-trib writing exists from that era.
your doctrine was created in 1827.
and the only thing that Jesus confirmed in Revelation 3:10 that we will be protected while we go through it. (John 17:15)
then where's the proof of it in the early church writings?
you say Christ taught it, you're making a historical claim... you're saying that this teaching will be evident within the second and third century church.
no pre-trib writing exists from that era.
your doctrine was created in 1827.
and the only thing that Jesus confirmed in Revelation 3:10 that we will be protected while we go through it. (John 17:15)
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S
The doctrine of the 'rapture' or when Christ comes back just for the church (the body of Christ) that was redeemed and purchased by the blood of Christ, was created in 1827? You are saying that before that time there was nothing taught by the early church (not referring to the earliest and firstborn church recorded in the scriptures but the one that proceeded ) nor indicated in the scriptures that Christ was coming back for His church before the Great Tribulation. Right? Was this doctrine created from the same scriptures that we have today? I think so! Did the early church, after John's death, have the same scriptures to go by? I think they did, but it was not complete. How about that, we all have the same scriptures. Now that's amazing.
Think of it! I can study the same scriptures that the early church had, but only better because now they are complete. I can literally have better understanding without prejudice. We have the same original language and many Greek and Hebrew scholars to help us understand what was written under inspiration and we have the same Holy Spirit to boot! I have a better opportunity to understand what was written for the church, then they did and you know it, Oh boastful one!. They certainly did not have any more of the Holy Spirit than we do? I can approach the word of God without any presuppositions and have confidence in God that His Holy Spirit, though the written word, is going to guide me into the truth so that I can know and receive the things that are freely given to me and to every member of Christ's body, and that is a promise from God and He does not lie. God is no respecter of persons. I don't need 1827 or 1611 or the early church to know what the scriptures have recorded, although I am thankful for their contributions that have been helpful.
My understanding of the church and its mysteries, has nothing to do with any early church teaching or persons from that time frame and it doesn't have to either. God bless them because they are in heaven but they had nothing to do with God's inspiration. Did you get that? I really hope you did. You and so many are obstinate in your heart because you refuse anything that has to do with God doing certain things in a certain way with a certain group of people. That's what dispensation truth in the plan of God is all about. You judge God's sovereignty with your own understanding and you limit the will of God, His right and ability to do things as he sees fit and mar His perfect justice.
Think of it! I can study the same scriptures that the early church had, but only better because now they are complete. I can literally have better understanding without prejudice. We have the same original language and many Greek and Hebrew scholars to help us understand what was written under inspiration and we have the same Holy Spirit to boot! I have a better opportunity to understand what was written for the church, then they did and you know it, Oh boastful one!. They certainly did not have any more of the Holy Spirit than we do? I can approach the word of God without any presuppositions and have confidence in God that His Holy Spirit, though the written word, is going to guide me into the truth so that I can know and receive the things that are freely given to me and to every member of Christ's body, and that is a promise from God and He does not lie. God is no respecter of persons. I don't need 1827 or 1611 or the early church to know what the scriptures have recorded, although I am thankful for their contributions that have been helpful.
My understanding of the church and its mysteries, has nothing to do with any early church teaching or persons from that time frame and it doesn't have to either. God bless them because they are in heaven but they had nothing to do with God's inspiration. Did you get that? I really hope you did. You and so many are obstinate in your heart because you refuse anything that has to do with God doing certain things in a certain way with a certain group of people. That's what dispensation truth in the plan of God is all about. You judge God's sovereignty with your own understanding and you limit the will of God, His right and ability to do things as he sees fit and mar His perfect justice.
I AM NO EXPERT BUT BIBLICAL SCHOLARS .................... DO AGREE
THAT THE TIMING OF THE
1 ST CORINTHIANS LETTERS TO BE AROUND.......59 AD
AND THE
1ST THESSOLONICA LETTERS TO BE AROUND 54 AD
WHICH IS EVEN MORE APPEALING
BECAUSE
PAUL WROTE ABOUT THE DAY OF RAPTURE
IN CORINTH TO THESSOLONICA AROUND 54 AD
THEN WROTE ABOUT
DAY OF GOD 2ND ADVENT
IN EPHESUS TO CORINTH AROUND 59 AD
EVEN MORE COMPELLING
IS THAT
PAUL WROTE BOTH LETTERS
DURING A 5 YEARS SPAN
SO
THIS SOLIDIFIES EVEN MORE
PAUL KNEW
WHEN STATING
LAST TRUMP
AND TRUMP
HE WAS SPECIFICLY SPEAKING
ABOUT 2 SEPARATE EVENTS
But it took Paul 5 years to communicate this knowledge, to TWO DIFFERENT churches in TWO DIFFERENT letters, at TWO DIFFERENT times, 5 YEARS apart? It doesn't make sense...and you don't have a leg to stand on. Surely you are smart enough to realise... that if Paul intended to communicate two events on the same end-times theme, he would have done it in the ONE letter, to the ONE church, at the same time...
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all of this coming from a closed-minded, ignorant dispensationalist...
all you're doing is justifying a semi-gnostic perspective on Biblical prophecy... you try to sit here and tell me that I have to have some secret knowledge in order to come to this supposed "truth" that never existed in the first place... those teachers before you, they had the teachings for the apostles disciples... word of mouth. They had all the info they needed, and yes, they had the scripture, just as much as you and I have today, but the thing is, unlike you, they didn't go INTO the Word with their own personal agenda... they searched the scripture day and night... meditated on it, prayed on it... and I say again, if pre-trib is Biblical and was taught by Christ, that teaching would be seen fluently in that time period.
Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus... they came to the conclusion that the church would endure the reign of Antichrist. Your understanding is based in nothing more than truths mixed with a lie. I know the history and origins of dispensationalism and pre-tribulation... you don't. I bet you never even bothered to see where your precious little rapture bubble came from...
dispensational permillennialism has already been condemned earlier in this thread... i don't need to post it again, and honestly, i don't need the early church teachers to tell me what you defend is a deception from Satan... God has already taught me that enough in what I've prayed about and studied.
you go ahead and believe the lie that you will secretly fly away before anything happens. When it doesn't happen, I wont tell you "i told you so"... you're choosing to put your trust in the doctrine of man. i don't.
all you're doing is justifying a semi-gnostic perspective on Biblical prophecy... you try to sit here and tell me that I have to have some secret knowledge in order to come to this supposed "truth" that never existed in the first place... those teachers before you, they had the teachings for the apostles disciples... word of mouth. They had all the info they needed, and yes, they had the scripture, just as much as you and I have today, but the thing is, unlike you, they didn't go INTO the Word with their own personal agenda... they searched the scripture day and night... meditated on it, prayed on it... and I say again, if pre-trib is Biblical and was taught by Christ, that teaching would be seen fluently in that time period.
Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus... they came to the conclusion that the church would endure the reign of Antichrist. Your understanding is based in nothing more than truths mixed with a lie. I know the history and origins of dispensationalism and pre-tribulation... you don't. I bet you never even bothered to see where your precious little rapture bubble came from...
dispensational permillennialism has already been condemned earlier in this thread... i don't need to post it again, and honestly, i don't need the early church teachers to tell me what you defend is a deception from Satan... God has already taught me that enough in what I've prayed about and studied.
you go ahead and believe the lie that you will secretly fly away before anything happens. When it doesn't happen, I wont tell you "i told you so"... you're choosing to put your trust in the doctrine of man. i don't.
BE SMART NOW
BEFORE YOU BEGIN SPOUTING OFF
WE ALL KNOW FOR A FACT
GOD HIMSELF
ONLY GIVES A PORTION AT A TIME
SO
WHEN PAUL WAS GIVEN THIS SECOND PORTION
I HAVE NO DOUBT
HE DID NOT GO TO GOD AND PRAY
AND SEEK IN ERNEST PRAYER
IS THIS THE SAME AS I WROTE ABOUT BEFORE
AND
WE HAVE THE ANSWER
THE SECOND TIME HE WROTE
HE WROTE ABOUT ANOTHER PERIOD
THAT WAS ABOUT
THE LAST AND 7TH TRUMP
NOT
LIKE THE FIRST TRUMP
HE HAD WRITTEN ABOUT BEFORE
I WONDER ABOUT YOU
IF SOMEONE
SENT YOU TO ANOTHER COUNTRY TO VISIT
WOULD YOU
LOOK INTO WHERE YOU WERE GOING
AND
MADE SURE YOU HAD PROPER DIRECTIONS
SO YOU WOULD NOT END UP SOMEWHERE ELSE.......?
OR
WOULD YOU BLINDLY GO AND FIGURE IT OUT ALONG THE WAY.......?
AS A BRILLIAN MAN
I AM SURE
THAT PAUL
WENT BEFORE GOD IN PRAYER
TO BE AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE ABOUT WHAT HE WAS WRITING
AND
AS WE SEE WHEN READING
PAUL
WROTE
ABOUT
2 SEPARATE TIME EVENTS
If God only gives a portion at a time,...do you then believe that no one in the christian world knew about the two events before Paul wrote it? Not even Peter? James? John? Jesus Himself? As I said before, do you follow Paul or Christ? We see no rapture before tribulation in Matt 24, we see no rapture before tribulation associated with any trumpets, in Revelation... you lose out on two of three witnesses.... as TWO OR THREE witnesses are required to establish any doctrine.. you only have Paul, which is only ONE.
PRE-TRIB
IS BASED UPON
NOT JUST MANY SCRIPTURES
BUT A VERY SPECIFIC SCRIPTURE
AND THAT IS
MATTHEW 24:14
WHEN THE GOSPEL HAS REACHED EVERYONE
AND ALL HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO BELIEVE
THEN
THE END WILL COME
BECAUSE
MATTHEW 24:15
LEADS US INTO WHAT DANIEL WAS SPEAKING ABOUT
THE BEGINNINGS OF TRIBULATION
TRIBULATION
TO THOSE WHO WILL BE SAVED
ARE LIKE PEOPLE LIKE I WAS
MY GRANDFATHER PREACHED
AND MY FATHER
BUT
I RAN FROM GOD
HAD
RAPTURE TAKEN PLACE
YOU CAN BET YOUR LAST DOLLAR
I WOULD HAVE BEEN PREACHING A STORM THEN
THE GOSPEL
PERTAINS TO THOSE
IN A FREE SYSTEM THAT WE CAN CHOOSE FREELY AS WE CAN NOW
DURING TRIBULATION
YOU HAVE 2 CHOICES
ACCEPT 666 MARK
OR
BEHEADED
WHICH
EVEN AS YOU CAN SEE
IS NOT A FREE WILL CHOICE
FOR
ONLY THOSE WHO GET BEHEADED
WILL DO SO
BECAUSE
THEY HAD FRIENDS OR FAMILY
THAT PREACHED TO THEM
IF YOU MISS RAPTURE
DO NOT TAKE MARK OF BEAST 666
GET
BEHEADED
I DO
WHO WROTE 2/3 OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.......?
NOT THE DISCIPLES
THEY
WERE TRULLY GREAT MEN
AND LIVED COMPLETELY BY FAITH AND WALKED IN FAITH
BUT
GOD
USED
ONE OF IF NOT THE MOST LEARNERD MAN OF THAT TIME
PAUL
AND ALSO JOHN
WROTE
5 BOOKS
HE WAS THE YOUNGEST AND BELOVED DISCIPLE
HE WROTE
JOHN - (I-II-III) JOHN - REVELATION
AND IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION
HE SPEAKS ABOUT THE TRUMPS
ALL 7
PERTAINING TO RAPTURE AND DAY OF GOD 2ND ADVENT
H
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and theh stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt. 24 29-31
It clearly says that after the tribulation the Lord will come. It then says that he will gather His elect. It does not say that He will gather up the ones who didn't make it the first time.
There is only one second coming of Christ my friends.
It clearly says that after the tribulation the Lord will come. It then says that he will gather His elect. It does not say that He will gather up the ones who didn't make it the first time.
There is only one second coming of Christ my friends.
1. Jesus - no mention of two comings or rapture before tribulation. Only one trump mentioned.
2. Revelation - no trumpets mentioning rapture are present, they all refer to successive types of tribulations (eg hail, etc).
3. Paul - allegedly referred to two separate events. In separate letters, to different churches, at different times (5 years apart).
1. and 2. does not agree with 3. You can prove your case with only 3. , so it is outnumbered 2 to 1.
Paul being a lawyer, would not have accepted your evidence in a court of law, as the number of witnesses against (1. and 2.) , outweigh the number of witnesses for. You would lose the court case!
2. Revelation - no trumpets mentioning rapture are present, they all refer to successive types of tribulations (eg hail, etc).
3. Paul - allegedly referred to two separate events. In separate letters, to different churches, at different times (5 years apart).
1. and 2. does not agree with 3. You can prove your case with only 3. , so it is outnumbered 2 to 1.
Paul being a lawyer, would not have accepted your evidence in a court of law, as the number of witnesses against (1. and 2.) , outweigh the number of witnesses for. You would lose the court case!