How do commentators know what the shadows of Christ are?

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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#21
See above. Does it look like I'm not studying scripture? Does it look like I'm not seeking God?

I have never heard God's voice, except in his word. I have listened to preachers and gotten nonWord out of them. Spent a couple of decades wasting away under the words of men posing as the Word of God. Then a couple of decades trying to erase those words and replace them with God's. Trusting my spirit to be God's spirit is like trusting a used car salesman to be honesty with me. I've always managed to buy cars off them, but I don't ever recall actually getting the car they promised.

The first thing I was told by a coworker when I told him which church I was going to join was "don't drink the Kool-Aid. He wasn't wrong, although he missed the timing. The Jimmy-Jones of the church left the week I joined what was left of that church.

I don't like repeating past mistakes. (And that wasn't a mistake, since that's where I met hubby.) What you're preaching is all the past mistakes I've already made. God's more obvious than whoever is teaching you how to connect with him.
If you really want to learn the Bible and understand it better then leave the commentaries alone. All they will do in confuse issues and far too often provide you with information that is completely wrong. If you want to really know the Bible then study the Bible and not books written about the Bible.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#22
the feast of trumpets is known to be a shadow of christ because the feasts are identified as shadows in colossians 2...

these commentators basically have the symbolism correct...the feast of trumpets was a shadow of the great commission...
There are feast of trumpets too? Haven't gotten that far. Just working on the getting them made the first time part.

So, you know I have to ask -- how do you know? lol Especially since one of them said it was the emblem of the Gospel.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#23
What these guys are doing is nothing more than speculation. They are assigning symbolism to things in scripture that rather rather strained. As to why these two trumpets were made of fine silver is really not clear. We only know that all things that were made that pertained to the the tabernacle and the priesthood were always made of precious materials of one type or another. There is no reason for them to speculate that these in any way represent the preaching of the gospel. I am not saying that it is not possible, only that they would have a difficult time of making a case for this. Trumpets in scripture serve three basic functions. They were used for battle, for calling an assembly of the people for a variety of reasons and not always to worship, and to herald the presence of the king. You see this in the imagery of the trumpets in Revelation.
We shouldn't underestimate the Hebrew history and symbolism in the OT. We are not reading an English document but a translated document. It is amazing to see how detailed the Hebrew pictures are in the OT and if we understood this 95% of the silly arguments on this website could be avoided :)
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#24
If you really want to learn the Bible and understand it better then leave the commentaries alone. All they will do in confuse issues and far too often provide you with information that is completely wrong. If you want to really know the Bible then study the Bible and not books written about the Bible.
Or enrol yourself in a good Hebrew school ;)
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#25
Yes, I understand that faith is not the issue... I just sometimes think, wow, all this complexity looks very impressive but simplicity is also a quality to be admired, hence, the faith of a child, in keeping it simple. I love learning and especially appreciate listening to those who distill their decades of study into easily digested soundbites for us/me, but honesty I do not retain a lot of it over a long period of time; even though I am inspired by it in the moment, the moment passes. Maybe I am just not a good student but I don't think my understanding suffers as a result. Or maybe it does and I am terribly deceived haha yeah I try to second guess things and it can drive me crazy, another reason why I embrace the idea of simplicity. I have listened to a lot of teachers over the last ten years and it all adds up and coalesces synergistically for me. Sometimes when I look at a page of writing, my mind just tuns to mush LOL. I cannot take it all in, it seems too much. I seem to be able to skim and get the idea of something though. Despite all that I do feel fairly fully engaged in my faith. There is always room for growth. Head knowledge is not always where it is at. Faith of a child...

That being said, I am impressed with the level of knowledge, learning, and understanding I have found here in my brothers and sisters in Christ. I enjoy reading many of the posts, especially if they are not too long. Sometimes I can take in a long one if it grabs me right away, I can get drawn in.

I mentioned this teacher in another thread recently:

Gary Hedrick, of Messianic Perspectives, on Kari55.com

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/messianic-perspectives/

Archived listening: Listen to Dr. Gary Hedrick - Messianic Perspectives Radio Online

Not my cup of tea. I spent too many decades following offshoots of God's word. Offshoots enough that, although they sound good, don't deal with the big obvious -- God. Hedrick seems more prone to be in awe of how we're supposed to relate to the Jews. I'm in more awe on how we're supposed to relate to God.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#26
If you really want to learn the Bible and understand it better then leave the commentaries alone. All they will do in confuse issues and far too often provide you with information that is completely wrong. If you want to really know the Bible then study the Bible and not books written about the Bible.
You didn't get "it was probably Apollo" from studying the Bible strictly. Much of what you teach you tell where you learned something -- who taught it to you. And they're books written by people. What's the difference?

I've studied the Bible just from the Bible. Again, the gold candlestick was just a candlestick. (I didn't even get wax wasn't involved.) I didn't even get the difference between the kinds of offerings. I never got Issac wasn't a little boy when his dad was going to sacrifice him. I didn't get that gold calf was the Israelites trying to visualize the true God. I bought the Cecil B. DeMille version for 58 years.

I tried the other approach for 30 years. Really doesn't work.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#28
Are you paying for it? And I'll need a tutor too.
How I wish that you understand Afrikaans because the church we attend at the moment is teaching us about the Hebrew pictures of Jesus in the Bible... It is amazing!!! I am so inspired that I am going to enrol in a Hebrew school next year :) we miss so much by only reading the English (and Afrikaans :) )
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#29
You didn't get "it was probably Apollo" from studying the Bible strictly. Much of what you teach you tell where you learned something -- who taught it to you. And they're books written by people. What's the difference?

I've studied the Bible just from the Bible. Again, the gold candlestick was just a candlestick. (I didn't even get wax wasn't involved.) I didn't even get the difference between the kinds of offerings. I never got Issac wasn't a little boy when his dad was going to sacrifice him. I didn't get that gold calf was the Israelites trying to visualize the true God. I bought the Cecil B. DeMille version for 58 years.

I tried the other approach for 30 years. Really doesn't work.
I am not saying that there is not valid information in commentaries but if you REALLY want to understand the Bible, try spending about a year just in the Bible without appealing to commentary sources and see how mush difference that makes. Learn how to generalize the text and you will be amazed at the things you will discover that you never saw before. I will be happy to help you.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#30
Not my cup of tea. I spent too many decades following offshoots of God's word. Offshoots enough that, although they sound good, don't deal with the big obvious -- God. Hedrick seems more prone to be in awe of how we're supposed to relate to the Jews. I'm in more awe on how we're supposed to relate to God.
Hmmm, I never saw him that way, as he seems to be about how the newer covenant connects/relates with/to the older ones, being a fulfillment of what preceded it, and has taught extensively on the festival days, and what they mean, Trumpets being one of them. I have, over a period of years, listened to many of these same teachers on the Kari55 radio station. He is one that always seems to be about the deeper things of God's Word. But I understand if he does not appeal, as I do not especially care for all the teachers or teachings I have been exposed to, either.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#31
We shouldn't underestimate the Hebrew history and symbolism in the OT. We are not reading an English document but a translated document. It is amazing to see how detailed the Hebrew pictures are in the OT and if we understood this 95% of the silly arguments on this website could be avoided :)
Here is the problem with any historical approach to scripture. History, culture, and human experience can never serve as the valid context of scripture. Although scripture is written within the framework of these elements they themselves are neither causal nor contributory. The only context for scripture is the mind of God, there are no other antecedents. History is never revelation and is never inspired. All we have of history are the opinions of the historians whose accounts can never be considered as objective because of a great many factors, not the least of which is the limitations of the human mind.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#32
I am not saying that there is not valid information in commentaries but if you REALLY want to understand the Bible, try spending about a year just in the Bible without appealing to commentary sources and see how mush difference that makes. Learn how to generalize the text and you will be amazed at the things you will discover that you never saw before. I will be happy to help you.
I've been one of God's kids for 43 years. I didn't even know there were commentaries and Bible aids for the first twelve years. I remember the excitement of discovering the law about the scapegoat and finally figuring out what "the Lamb of God" means. I distinctly remember Isaiah and Jeremiah depressing me (still do lol) until I see those sparse verses about the Messiah and remembered where our hope lies. I remember being all kinds of confused when noticing the genealogy is different in Matthew and Luke. And when the disciples, including the ladies, went to the tomb? Different feeling, depending on who wrote that gospel. (Joyous, but it's very confusing, unless you study a bit harder. Still a bit confusing after that. Didn't get that until I read a commentator named James Boice.) Acts reminds me that nothing has changed since. People are still going to hate. Those who will come often come right then and there. And brothers bicker -- a lot. lol I love Paul -- both the encourager and the bullheaded apostle. James is no nonsense. Jude has it going on. (Wish I could write that succinct. lol) Revelation had to be tried a few times before I got it was just one big scene after specific messages to seven churches, but the ending is cool. I did end up needing a commentator, and one of the things he said was a 10 year old can get Revelation. Boy, do I feel dumb. lol)

43 years as a kid of God and this is the first time I've been using commentators from beginning to end. (I've Wycliffed a few of the books before, but they were specific books, not the whole Bible.) I'm using commentators because I know there is nothing more this brain can learn from just the words themselves. I'm too lazy to read Edersheim to learn the Jewish culture, and honestly, he studied the Jewish Culture in the first century, so didn't get into the particulars of when they were nomads.

I'm also a writer, so I can actually tell you more about POV, the art of the message, the art of the story told, the running themes, and the style of the writers of each book, more than a casual reader gets.

I think I've already spent more than enough time seeing what I can get out of it on my own.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#33
Here is the problem with any historical approach to scripture. History, culture, and human experience can never serve as the valid context of scripture. Although scripture is written within the framework of these elements they themselves are neither causal nor contributory. The only context for scripture is the mind of God, there are no other antecedents. History is never revelation and is never inspired. All we have of history are the opinions of the historians whose accounts can never be considered as objective because of a great many factors, not the least of which is the limitations of the human mind.
History and culture helps, especially when we're so vastly different from that time and those people. Slavery is weird to me. I was taught that it's repulsive. The idea that it's okay to beat up a slave just as long as you don't knock out a tooth, terminate the slave's developing baby, or kill the slave is foreign to me. Until I learned the history, it seemed very barbaric of God. After learning the history, I tend to think God started a whole new way of living that hadn't been done before and hasn't been duplicated since. (Granted, it wasn't done well then either. lol His plan was definitely solid for that time and place though. And I wish we had it in this country, because then the government wouldn't think they must "protect" the less fortunate, without ever truly protecting, and the Church would actually get it IS their responsibility, not the governments.) I think God can get through to the human mind.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#34
History and culture helps, especially when we're so vastly different from that time and those people. Slavery is weird to me. I was taught that it's repulsive. The idea that it's okay to beat up a slave just as long as you don't knock out a tooth, terminate the slave's developing baby, or kill the slave is foreign to me. Until I learned the history, it seemed very barbaric of God. After learning the history, I tend to think God started a whole new way of living that hadn't been done before and hasn't been duplicated since. (Granted, it wasn't done well then either. lol His plan was definitely solid for that time and place though. And I wish we had it in this country, because then the government wouldn't think they must "protect" the less fortunate, without ever truly protecting, and the Church would actually get it IS their responsibility, not the governments.) I think God can get through to the human mind.
We learn that from the study of scripture itself, not from the study of history. History has a far different perspective of slavery that that presented in the Law of Moses. Most of what we learn from history that is of any value is generally things that are of a peripheral nature. These are things that offer us interesting bits of information but they NEVER add to or help us understand revealed truth. History does not explain scripture, scripture explains history.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,145
617
113
71
Alabama
#35
I've been one of God's kids for 43 years. I didn't even know there were commentaries and Bible aids for the first twelve years. I remember the excitement of discovering the law about the scapegoat and finally figuring out what "the Lamb of God" means. I distinctly remember Isaiah and Jeremiah depressing me (still do lol) until I see those sparse verses about the Messiah and remembered where our hope lies. I remember being all kinds of confused when noticing the genealogy is different in Matthew and Luke. And when the disciples, including the ladies, went to the tomb? Different feeling, depending on who wrote that gospel. (Joyous, but it's very confusing, unless you study a bit harder. Still a bit confusing after that. Didn't get that until I read a commentator named James Boice.) Acts reminds me that nothing has changed since. People are still going to hate. Those who will come often come right then and there. And brothers bicker -- a lot. lol I love Paul -- both the encourager and the bullheaded apostle. James is no nonsense. Jude has it going on. (Wish I could write that succinct. lol) Revelation had to be tried a few times before I got it was just one big scene after specific messages to seven churches, but the ending is cool. I did end up needing a commentator, and one of the things he said was a 10 year old can get Revelation. Boy, do I feel dumb. lol)

43 years as a kid of God and this is the first time I've been using commentators from beginning to end. (I've Wycliffed a few of the books before, but they were specific books, not the whole Bible.) I'm using commentators because I know there is nothing more this brain can learn from just the words themselves. I'm too lazy to read Edersheim to learn the Jewish culture, and honestly, he studied the Jewish Culture in the first century, so didn't get into the particulars of when they were nomads.

I'm also a writer, so I can actually tell you more about POV, the art of the message, the art of the story told, the running themes, and the style of the writers of each book, more than a casual reader gets.

I think I've already spent more than enough time seeing what I can get out of it on my own.
You need to lean how to generalize rather than interpret scripture. We are never allowed to interpret scripture. When you learn to do this you will discover of how little value commentaries really are. Earlier you made the statement "I also don't know how you know what you know." I can show you how to do this if you are interested.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#36
Faith is the substance.
The law is its shadow.
Jesus is the light.

One is not complete without the other

No substance, no shadow.
No shadow, no light.
No light, no shadow.

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

And no sin offering, whereof any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of the congregation to reconcile withal in the holy place, shall be eaten: it shall be burnt in the fire. Leviticus 6:30

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:27
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#37
atwhatcost said:
How do commentators know what the shadows of Christ are?
I cannot speak on behalf of commentators in general, but I'll give my own commentary or advice to you which I believe is Biblical in nature.

"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." (Luke 24:25-27)

After His resurrection from the dead, Jesus walked with the two men on the road to Emmaus and beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself and I trust that such an expounding of all the scriptures included any types and shadows of Christ in the Old Testament.

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:44-47)

A little bit later, when He appeared to the eleven and those that were with them, Jesus again opened their understanding that they might understand the scriptures or that they might understand all things which were written in the law of Moses and in the prophets and in the psalms concerning Him. Seeing how Jesus is no respecter of persons, if He did the same for them, then why wouldn't He also do the same for you if you but ask Him to? Personally, I always pray for God to reveal Christ to me in the Old Testament before I read the same and God has honored such a request since I first began making it many years ago. Even in what we just read, Jesus opened the disciples' understanding in relation to what had been written in the Old Testament concerning His sufferings and His resurrection from the dead on the third day, right? Well, weren't these suffering foreshadowed in the different Old Testament sacrifices and in the brazen serpent which Moses placed upon a pole? John the Baptist referred to Jesus as "the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world", didn't He? Wasn't John alluding to the Old Testament sacrifices which foreshadowed Christ's crucifixion? Jesus Himself referred to the lifting up of the brazen serpent while speaking to Nicodemus as recorded in John chapter 3, didn't He? What about Christ rising the third day? Where does the Old Testament speak of the same? Well, Jesus cited the example of Jonah being in the belly of the great fish for 3 days, didn't He? My point is that the Bible explains some of the types and shadows for us and that God will reveal others to us as well if we but ask Him to. As such, my advice to you is to simply ask God to do the same for you before you read the Old Testament. Truly, in the volume of the book it is written of Christ and we can learn as much about Christ, if not more, in the Old Testament as we can learn about Him in the New Testament. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ and part of His role in our lives is to reveal Christ to us in the scriptures, both Old Testament and New Testament, that we might then be conformed to His image. Again, before you read the Old Testament, just ask God to reveal Christ to you within the same by the Holy Spirit and He will be faithful to do so.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#38
The first four (spring) feasts, Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Weeks, are believed to have been fulfilled already by Christ.

Trumpets, the Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles are yet to be fulfilled.

Trumpets is thought to be related to the rapture of the church.


i disagree with that interpretation of the fall feasts...

my interpretation comes from the fact that the feasts are labelled as shadows of christ in colossians 2...and no qualifier is given distinguishing the status of the spring and fall feasts...so i understand them -all- to be already fulfilled by christ...and i don't view any of them as having end time significance...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#39
There are feast of trumpets too? Haven't gotten that far. Just working on the getting them made the first time part.

So, you know I have to ask -- how do you know? lol Especially since one of them said it was the emblem of the Gospel.
yes there is a feast of trumpets...nowdays jews call it rosh hashanah...it is like the jewish civil new year...and they blow the trumpets on that day...

the year of jubilee also begins with the feast of trumpets...

like i said i know that it is a shadow of christ because the feasts are labelled as shadows of christ in colossians 2...as for how to know what aspect of christ's work each feast stands for...you have to see what happened in the feast and then go to the new testament and see what events from the work of christ match up with the feast...

for example the trumpets were used as a signal for the israelites to march or to assemble...they were also used in the year of jubilee as a signal to proclaim liberty... so in new testament times this matches the command that was given for the israelites to go out and proclaim gospel liberty and assemble peoples from every nation...this command was given at the great commission...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#40
the bible says that God gave his church teachers...commentaries are basically just another way these teachers God gave us have blessed the church...sound teaching written down for a wider audience and for future generations...

the value of a commentary is not that it in any way tells you what to think...but that it causes you to notice something that you quickly discern to be true and can find support for in scripture...at least in the case of a good commentary...