Sorry, you completely lost me. You either believe me or you don't. You either believe God's Word that I have put forth or you dont. The fact that I hold to a different belief in regards to Soteriology than you and I stand up for what is right should not make you think the wrong way about me (if that is what you are proposing here).
If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.
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Jesus exposed the Pharisees and what they believed many times. So no. I do not agree. We are to bear with those who preach another Christ as the Scriptures say. Bear with them in telling the truth of God's Word in what it says. For we are commanded to preach the Word and to preach the gospel to all nations. 2 Timothy 3:16 says we can correct and reprove by the Word of God.
E
I believe God's word. I don't believe what you bring to the table. You seem to think the entire turkey is yours.
Do you believe in the spiritual gifts Jason? What gift is it you suppose God has given you?
Wondering exactly what you believe your place in the BODY of Christ is?
I mean, you do believe we are all members of His body don't you?
now what is the wrong way Jason? Are you offering a choice?
Do you believe in the spiritual gifts Jason? What gift is it you suppose God has given you?
Wondering exactly what you believe your place in the BODY of Christ is?
I mean, you do believe we are all members of His body don't you?
now what is the wrong way Jason? Are you offering a choice?
V
I've explained them to you so often I have not only the verses, but my commentary memorized. You have rejected it so often, insisting that your man-based, self-sufficient "gospel" is "God's word" that you have convinced me you are truly clueless to the fact you are lost!
Further proof you're clueless, and that you need to oversimplify, distort, even lie about what people, what I, believe. That phrase you repeat, "you can't sin and still be saved," is your byword, has become a magical incantation to you and it triggers all sorts of ungodly spew that distorts and lies about Scripture.
I quote to you the first two verses of 1 John 2 not long ago that you absolutely ignored, pretended had not been posted. They are proof you take vv. 3 & 4 out of context and pretend vv. 1 & 2 do not exist. I challenge you to explain away now the clear indication John gave that believers do, indeed, sin, as shown in the emboldened and underlined section below.
I want you to prove that when Christ calls for "obedience" He is speaking of "doing." Show us the passages that teach this. With Christ, "obedience" is love. Love God, love others. He told the young scribe, "On these two commandments the whole Law and the prophets depend."
Then I want you to explain how you can claim not to be a legalist, a follower of the Law, and claim you are not, when clearly all you advocate is nothing less than following the Law. The Law covers every behavior, every thought, every word that is part of how you present yourself. If you insist we must avoid any hint of sin in our thoughts, words, and deeds or else we won't be saved, you are following the Law, plainly and simply.
Prove to us you actually do know the word of God!
Further proof you're clueless, and that you need to oversimplify, distort, even lie about what people, what I, believe. That phrase you repeat, "you can't sin and still be saved," is your byword, has become a magical incantation to you and it triggers all sorts of ungodly spew that distorts and lies about Scripture.
I quote to you the first two verses of 1 John 2 not long ago that you absolutely ignored, pretended had not been posted. They are proof you take vv. 3 & 4 out of context and pretend vv. 1 & 2 do not exist. I challenge you to explain away now the clear indication John gave that believers do, indeed, sin, as shown in the emboldened and underlined section below.
1 John 2, NASB
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
I want you to prove that when Christ calls for "obedience" He is speaking of "doing." Show us the passages that teach this. With Christ, "obedience" is love. Love God, love others. He told the young scribe, "On these two commandments the whole Law and the prophets depend."
Then I want you to explain how you can claim not to be a legalist, a follower of the Law, and claim you are not, when clearly all you advocate is nothing less than following the Law. The Law covers every behavior, every thought, every word that is part of how you present yourself. If you insist we must avoid any hint of sin in our thoughts, words, and deeds or else we won't be saved, you are following the Law, plainly and simply.
Prove to us you actually do know the word of God!
E
for some reason, those words seem to have taken on a translucent appearance...that is, they are opaque to some but really not so to the op...they will never be noticed, they will not be defined nor recognized as sincere nor will they be responded to or acknowleded
if they were, it would be the end of the endless threads engendered by the avoidance of acknowledgement
you probably have already caught on, but in sincere but misguided efforts to have a two way discussion, as benefits all, one sometimes hopes that repetition may engender a response fit for the sincere post
don't hold your breath
if they were, it would be the end of the endless threads engendered by the avoidance of acknowledgement
you probably have already caught on, but in sincere but misguided efforts to have a two way discussion, as benefits all, one sometimes hopes that repetition may engender a response fit for the sincere post
don't hold your breath
E
and who do you say are the pharisees Jason?
if you point to one Christ calls His own with the word pharisee dripping off your index finger, will you be judged according to your judgement?
do you suppose God is mocked? or will he judge righteously while some judge according to their own private interpretation?
will some wound those whom Gods calls a bruised reed or will some put out a smoking flax?
who will cause justice to be victorious?
if you point to one Christ calls His own with the word pharisee dripping off your index finger, will you be judged according to your judgement?
do you suppose God is mocked? or will he judge righteously while some judge according to their own private interpretation?
will some wound those whom Gods calls a bruised reed or will some put out a smoking flax?
who will cause justice to be victorious?
John says to.... "sin not." He either means that or he doesn't mean that. Grace is not a license for you to sin. Yes, grace is there for believers if they honestly struggle with sin on their road to recovery in overcoming sin, but nowhere does God's Word teach you can sin and be saved. Confession is to cleanse you of all unrighteousness so that you can walk uprightly with God. John is saying that you can confess in times you do struggle but he is not saying it is a license and makes that clear by saying...."sin not" and by saying that if one says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. Are you keeping His commandments? Sin is trangression of the Law (i.e. the Commandment) (1 John 3:4).
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W
for some reason, those words seem to have taken on a translucent appearance...that is, they are opaque to some but really not so to the op...they will never be noticed, they will not be defined nor recognized as sincere nor will they be responded to or acknowleded
if they were, it would be the end of the endless threads engendered by the avoidance of acknowledgement
you probably have already caught on, but in sincere but misguided efforts to have a two way discussion, as benefits all, one sometimes hopes that repetition may engender a response fit for the sincere post
don't hold your breath
if they were, it would be the end of the endless threads engendered by the avoidance of acknowledgement
you probably have already caught on, but in sincere but misguided efforts to have a two way discussion, as benefits all, one sometimes hopes that repetition may engender a response fit for the sincere post
don't hold your breath
You either believe me or you don't. -- No room for anything other than Jason's understanding or the opposite of Jason's understanding. It seems he does not understand that just because we reject the way he has presented his extreme stance, does not mean that we subscribe to the opposite extreme stance.
You either believe God's Word that I have put forth or you dont. -- Again, no room for anything other than Jason's understanding (of God's Word). No room for potential interpretations that Jason has not considered. No room for Christ-Followers who live by God's Word, but have not yet been compelled to answer this "Sinless Perfection" questioning.
My observation is that Jason is putting huge emphasis on small parts of scripture, while not placing enough emphasis on the "meat", or main idea. Such that the emphasis on the supporting text has created a new gospel for him. One he believes to be the only true gospel. That which teaches followers must do something in order to be saved. Rather than our gospel, which teaches that once you are saved, you must work to live in Christ.
Jason, i know we don't see eye-to-eye about some things, but we do see eye-to-eye on one very important thing: that Jesus is Lord and He came in the flesh to die for the ungodly, in order to justify them. that He rose again and through Him alone is eternal life and communion with God.
so i don't care so much if we disagree about particulars - even though i'm just as willing to stand and debate with you to your face about the things i'm convinced of. i believe the things you say and do, you're motivated to do for God's sake, not your own glory -- and no matter how much you frustrate a lot of people here, i'm glad for your presence and the conversations and thought that are inspired by what you post. i'm sure i'm frustrating too.
i want to see unity and peace among all of us, and i hope we all remain teachable and remember to love each other, being gentle & kind & humble while we also hold firm to the truth.
P.S. sorry i blindsided you with another topic & called you "dude" (post #369) -- i meant it in a very friendly way & never once thought it would be offensive
#weneedmorepeacemakers
so i don't care so much if we disagree about particulars - even though i'm just as willing to stand and debate with you to your face about the things i'm convinced of. i believe the things you say and do, you're motivated to do for God's sake, not your own glory -- and no matter how much you frustrate a lot of people here, i'm glad for your presence and the conversations and thought that are inspired by what you post. i'm sure i'm frustrating too.
i want to see unity and peace among all of us, and i hope we all remain teachable and remember to love each other, being gentle & kind & humble while we also hold firm to the truth.
P.S. sorry i blindsided you with another topic & called you "dude" (post #369) -- i meant it in a very friendly way & never once thought it would be offensive
#weneedmorepeacemakers
Jason, i know we don't see eye-to-eye about some things, but we do see eye-to-eye on one very important thing: that Jesus is Lord and He came in the flesh to die for the ungodly, in order to justify them. that He rose again and through Him alone is eternal life and communion with God.
so i don't care so much if we disagree about particulars - even though i'm just as willing to stand and debate with you to your face about the things i'm convinced of. i believe the things you say and do, you're motivated to do for God's sake, not your own glory -- and no matter how much you frustrate a lot of people here, i'm glad for your presence and the conversations and thought that are inspired by what you post. i'm sure i'm frustrating too.
i want to see unity and peace among all of us, and i hope we all remain teachable and remember to love each other, being gentle & kind & humble while we also hold firm to the truth.
P.S. sorry i blindsided you with another topic & called you "dude" (post #369) -- i meant it in a very friendly way & never once thought it would be offensive
#weneedmorepeacemakers
so i don't care so much if we disagree about particulars - even though i'm just as willing to stand and debate with you to your face about the things i'm convinced of. i believe the things you say and do, you're motivated to do for God's sake, not your own glory -- and no matter how much you frustrate a lot of people here, i'm glad for your presence and the conversations and thought that are inspired by what you post. i'm sure i'm frustrating too.
i want to see unity and peace among all of us, and i hope we all remain teachable and remember to love each other, being gentle & kind & humble while we also hold firm to the truth.
P.S. sorry i blindsided you with another topic & called you "dude" (post #369) -- i meant it in a very friendly way & never once thought it would be offensive
#weneedmorepeacemakers
Jason, i know we don't see eye-to-eye about some things, but we do see eye-to-eye on one very important thing: that Jesus is Lord and He came in the flesh to die for the ungodly, in order to justify them. that He rose again and through Him alone is eternal life and communion with God.
so i don't care so much if we disagree about particulars - even though i'm just as willing to stand and debate with you to your face about the things i'm convinced of. i believe the things you say and do, you're motivated to do for God's sake, not your own glory -- and no matter how much you frustrate a lot of people here, i'm glad for your presence and the conversations and thought that are inspired by what you post. i'm sure i'm frustrating too.
i want to see unity and peace among all of us, and i hope we all remain teachable and remember to love each other, being gentle & kind & humble while we also hold firm to the truth.
P.S. sorry i blindsided you with another topic & called you "dude" (post #369) -- i meant it in a very friendly way & never once thought it would be offensive
#weneedmorepeacemakers
so i don't care so much if we disagree about particulars - even though i'm just as willing to stand and debate with you to your face about the things i'm convinced of. i believe the things you say and do, you're motivated to do for God's sake, not your own glory -- and no matter how much you frustrate a lot of people here, i'm glad for your presence and the conversations and thought that are inspired by what you post. i'm sure i'm frustrating too.
i want to see unity and peace among all of us, and i hope we all remain teachable and remember to love each other, being gentle & kind & humble while we also hold firm to the truth.
P.S. sorry i blindsided you with another topic & called you "dude" (post #369) -- i meant it in a very friendly way & never once thought it would be offensive
#weneedmorepeacemakers
But I do hope to later answer you (When I do have time).
May God's love shine upon you.
J
hi woundedwarrior,
I don’t want to take anything away from J-. He seems to have done a lot of bible studying, and IMO has made some excellent points on why obedience to Jesus’ words is critical to salvation. Frankly, it seems very daunting to take on so many who have been brought up in churches with some form of OSAS, many with the idea of “unconditional love.” If that was true, how did Lucifer and a third of the angels fall from heaven? or Israel fall into captivity because of idolatry and occult practices (such as Baal worship).
He might’ve mis-applied verses a few times, but I’m prone to make mistakes like that too. I briefly contradicted a “sinless perfectionist” at another forum, but he has a complicated, prepared “perfectionist” system that’s ready to respond to any disagreement. What he doesn’t do is make allowances, manipulating scripture to fit a rigid “perfectionism.”
Much of what J- says is needed to turn around the complacent idea of OSAS, who falsely assume that what Jesus said in Matthew 5 to 7 is separate from salvation. The key is true faith in Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach, guide and heal. And to continue in that faith.
With a possible economic crisis in the near future, continuing in the faith might be easier said than done.
I don’t want to take anything away from J-. He seems to have done a lot of bible studying, and IMO has made some excellent points on why obedience to Jesus’ words is critical to salvation. Frankly, it seems very daunting to take on so many who have been brought up in churches with some form of OSAS, many with the idea of “unconditional love.” If that was true, how did Lucifer and a third of the angels fall from heaven? or Israel fall into captivity because of idolatry and occult practices (such as Baal worship).
He might’ve mis-applied verses a few times, but I’m prone to make mistakes like that too. I briefly contradicted a “sinless perfectionist” at another forum, but he has a complicated, prepared “perfectionist” system that’s ready to respond to any disagreement. What he doesn’t do is make allowances, manipulating scripture to fit a rigid “perfectionism.”
Much of what J- says is needed to turn around the complacent idea of OSAS, who falsely assume that what Jesus said in Matthew 5 to 7 is separate from salvation. The key is true faith in Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach, guide and heal. And to continue in that faith.
With a possible economic crisis in the near future, continuing in the faith might be easier said than done.
Not true. I do listen to what others have to say according to the Word of God and I have even been corrected by God on a wrong understanding of certain passages (even when the other wrong camp said it). So no, I seek to be a good Berean who is open minded to God's Word but yet proves whether those things be so or not.
Also, the Scriptures say that one can have a certainty in knowing God's Word and that they need not any man to teach them.
Also, the Scriptures say that one can have a certainty in knowing God's Word and that they need not any man to teach them.
yeah dude!
this is a conundrum to me, that i've been struggling and praying over for a while recently.
we need to be unified as believers and "as much as possible, as it depends on us" be at peace with all men.
but at the same time we need to stand firm in the gospel we received, and the hold our original confidence in Him to the end. He's the prince of peace, and out of His mouth is a two edged sword - He sends us with the message of reconciliation, and He makes us into weapons and armor for righteousness.
how to balance .. ?
oh -- and i call you "dude" in the most loving of ways, dude.
this is a conundrum to me, that i've been struggling and praying over for a while recently.
we need to be unified as believers and "as much as possible, as it depends on us" be at peace with all men.
but at the same time we need to stand firm in the gospel we received, and the hold our original confidence in Him to the end. He's the prince of peace, and out of His mouth is a two edged sword - He sends us with the message of reconciliation, and He makes us into weapons and armor for righteousness.
how to balance .. ?
oh -- and i call you "dude" in the most loving of ways, dude.