Did Jesus come to set the captives free from guilt, or set them free from sin?
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S
Exactly true, but I'll go a step farther and say that it's impossible for a Christian to not have a penitent and contrite heart. It is possible for one who confesses to be a Christian to not have a changed heart but the very act of salvation creates a new heart.
Ezekiel 36:26King James Version (KJV)[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
J
Not so.
A Christian's heart can be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin to the point where they can depart from the living God and this is precisely why we ought to be admonishing one another daily:
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)
A Christian's heart can be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin to the point where they can depart from the living God and this is precisely why we ought to be admonishing one another daily:
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)
S
Sorry, I disagree. Hebrews was written to the Hebrew people. The children of Israel were not born again, so yes they hardened their hearts. Paul is speaking to a group of people, some Christian but some still practicing the old covenant law.
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
That evil heart of unbelief is an unsaved heart. You can't have both a saved heart, which is a new creation where old things have passed away ,all things are new, and all things are of God and an evil heart of unbelief at the same time.
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
That evil heart of unbelief is an unsaved heart. You can't have both a saved heart, which is a new creation where old things have passed away ,all things are new, and all things are of God and an evil heart of unbelief at the same time.
S
Let me clarify something. I'm not saying that a Christian can't ignore the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit. What I'm saying is that it's impossible for a Christian to sustain the same heart relationship with sin that they had before being saved. To be saved the Spirit becomes one with God. They can certainly be lead by their flesh which should be considered dead and must be crucified daily.
J
You can disagree all that you'd like to, but you're disagreeing with the Bible and not with me. Here is who the writer was addressing in what I previously quoted:
"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;" (Hebrews 3:1)
Do you honestly believe that holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling and those who had Jesus as the Apostle and High Priest of their profession weren't Christians?
It never ceases to amaze me how people will ignore the plain teachings and implications of scripture in favor of their own theology.
"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;" (Hebrews 3:1)
Do you honestly believe that holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling and those who had Jesus as the Apostle and High Priest of their profession weren't Christians?
It never ceases to amaze me how people will ignore the plain teachings and implications of scripture in favor of their own theology.
J
Btw, Paul never said anything about "the flesh being crucified daily". Here is what he actually said:
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24)
HAVE crucified.
In relation to dying daily, Paul said:
"And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die." (I Corinthians 15:30-32)
Paul "died daily" in that he daily put his physical life in jeopardy for the gospel's sake. He didn't need to somehow "crucify his flesh daily".
"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (I Corinthians 9:24-27)
Paul did bring his own body into subjection to Christ via temperance which is one of the fruits of the Spirit, but to say that he needed to somehow "crucify his flesh daily" is rather preposterous. I mean, Paul said that he was crucified with Christ, didn't he? If Paul needed to be crucified daily, then does Christ need to be crucified daily as well? Think about it, please.
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24)
HAVE crucified.
In relation to dying daily, Paul said:
"And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die." (I Corinthians 15:30-32)
Paul "died daily" in that he daily put his physical life in jeopardy for the gospel's sake. He didn't need to somehow "crucify his flesh daily".
"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (I Corinthians 9:24-27)
Paul did bring his own body into subjection to Christ via temperance which is one of the fruits of the Spirit, but to say that he needed to somehow "crucify his flesh daily" is rather preposterous. I mean, Paul said that he was crucified with Christ, didn't he? If Paul needed to be crucified daily, then does Christ need to be crucified daily as well? Think about it, please.
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Here in Romans 7, Paul is speaking in the present tense, is he not? I am wondering how it squares with you saying Paul does not need to crucify his flesh daily. Is he not saying he is still a slave to the law of sin in his flesh, which he overcomes by the power of God?
Here in Romans 7, Paul is speaking in the present tense, is he not? I am wondering how it squares with you saying Paul does not need to crucify his flesh daily. Is he not saying he is still a slave to the law of sin in his flesh, which he overcomes by the power of God?
E
So Jason sets up threads over and over again, makes polls and demands answers to his questions
However, he has abandoneed the thread he started where he wanted those who believed in OSAS to answer his
questions...supposedly to help him understand things better
Yet, he does not answer my questions or some other people's questions so I brought my questions here
What happened?
he totally ignored my post...typical Jason...skipped over it and kept on going
seriously, how long should that be tolerated?
he just basically picks and chooses what he wants to answer according to how it fits in with his cherry picked theology
it does not matter how nice or polite you are; he just acts like a rogue poster and you will never actually get any satisfaction regarding answers
how much longer?
However, he has abandoneed the thread he started where he wanted those who believed in OSAS to answer his
questions...supposedly to help him understand things better
Yet, he does not answer my questions or some other people's questions so I brought my questions here
What happened?
he totally ignored my post...typical Jason...skipped over it and kept on going
seriously, how long should that be tolerated?
he just basically picks and chooses what he wants to answer according to how it fits in with his cherry picked theology
it does not matter how nice or polite you are; he just acts like a rogue poster and you will never actually get any satisfaction regarding answers
how much longer?
E
As for my gift: Several people have told me I should be a teacher or Pastor, but I told them I am waiting on God's timing and direction for something like that. For now, there are other things I believe God wants me to do so as to glorify Him.
and how do you see yourself glorifying your Creator in this thread?
I ask questions for answers...although it seems they may be without merit, I can assure you I have reasons for questions
BTW, when you gonna answer the last ones I asked?
see, if you don't see yourself as teacher, then you have to accept that questions are part of a normal dialogue, but actually, God Himself invites questions so why should we not do also?
from post 810 in the other thread which you appear to have abandonned....actually, thinking about it, you have abandonned every thread you start the moment someone starts asking questions you cannot answer and each thread you start is a very poor clone of the one before it
that dna must be awful stretched by now
so, do you believe in the gifts of the spirit or are you a cessationist?
J
I just recently addressed this on another thread, so I hope that you don't mind me providing you a link to that as an answer to your questions:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119657-godless-american-church-8.html#post2226807
If you have any further questions after reading what I wrote there, then I'll be happy to answer them for you to the best of my ability. Thank you.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119657-godless-american-church-8.html#post2226807
If you have any further questions after reading what I wrote there, then I'll be happy to answer them for you to the best of my ability. Thank you.
It is a long post, but what I see right away is the claim that we are no longer in the flesh once we are born again. I do understand the distinction you make to say flesh equals being under the law and we are born again of the spirit. However, as others are pointing out to you, how can that be the total end of the desires of the flesh, since we are still alive in this earthy body in a fallen world and subject to the desires of the flesh. You said:
Again, being delivered from the law and no longer being in the flesh are the same thing...whether you like it or not. Those who are delivered from the law serve in newness of spirit and/or those who are no longer in the flesh bring forth fruit unto God.
Paul said: in 1 Cor 3:10-13 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Is he not saying we need build with care because the works of the flesh can creep in, such works counting for nothing in the end, being burnt up even though we ourselves will still be saved? Always we are being exhorted to be vigilant and stand fast, because the tendency to err is great. Even Paul had a thorn in the flesh as a saved Christian, which he prayed God remove, but which was not removed from him.
Again, being delivered from the law and no longer being in the flesh are the same thing...whether you like it or not. Those who are delivered from the law serve in newness of spirit and/or those who are no longer in the flesh bring forth fruit unto God.
Paul said: in 1 Cor 3:10-13 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Is he not saying we need build with care because the works of the flesh can creep in, such works counting for nothing in the end, being burnt up even though we ourselves will still be saved? Always we are being exhorted to be vigilant and stand fast, because the tendency to err is great. Even Paul had a thorn in the flesh as a saved Christian, which he prayed God remove, but which was not removed from him.
i think it squares through this --
actually in the first 10 verses of Romans 6, not just these 3, Paul says over and over that we have died with Christ, past tense. and then in verse 11 he gives the first directive in the whole letter:
he doesn't tell us "crucify yourselves" -- but to consider ourselves crucified. we're already positionally dead with regard to sin, and that was accomplished on His cross, when we believed, an act of His grace greater than time itself, because He died once for all sin.
this is exactly like what Christ instructs, that we should "take up our cross daily" and follow Him. not that we should nail ourselves to the cross daily, but shoulder it - remember it, acknowledge it, make our corporeal lives reflect it, because spiritually, it is reality.
does this make sense? it's sort of a fine point, and to me illustrates who is the one acting, and who is the one responding.
but hey maybe i got this all wrong; do correct me please
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
(Romans 6:4-6)
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
(Romans 6:4-6)
actually in the first 10 verses of Romans 6, not just these 3, Paul says over and over that we have died with Christ, past tense. and then in verse 11 he gives the first directive in the whole letter:
reckon yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
(Romans 6:11)
(Romans 6:11)
he doesn't tell us "crucify yourselves" -- but to consider ourselves crucified. we're already positionally dead with regard to sin, and that was accomplished on His cross, when we believed, an act of His grace greater than time itself, because He died once for all sin.
this is exactly like what Christ instructs, that we should "take up our cross daily" and follow Him. not that we should nail ourselves to the cross daily, but shoulder it - remember it, acknowledge it, make our corporeal lives reflect it, because spiritually, it is reality.
does this make sense? it's sort of a fine point, and to me illustrates who is the one acting, and who is the one responding.
but hey maybe i got this all wrong; do correct me please
J
Where do you find any mention of "the works of the flesh" in what you cited from I Corinthians chapter 3? There isn't any.
"The works of the flesh", contextually, as Paul actually described them, refer to any violations of God's commandments which are inevitable for anybody who only has an outward circumcision in the foreskin of their flesh. Again, Paul said that the law is spiritual, right? Well, how is an unregenerate person who is void of the Spirit of God and void of the inner circumcision of the heart or spirit ever going to be able to keep the same? IOW, if I tell an unregenerate man to not commit adultery, is he going to be able to obey the same? Remember, adultery, according to Jesus, goes to the heart and way beyond the outward physical act. IOW, to even lust after a woman in one's heart equates with adultery in Jesus' eyes. Anyhow, this is what Paul was talking about. The man with only a fleshly circumcision, no matter how much he wants to obey God, simply will not be able to and he will, inevitable, do "the works of the flesh" or the very works which are condemned by God's spiritual law because he only has an outward fleshly circumcision which renders him powerless in relation to actually obeying God's commandments.
If you'd like to, then maybe we can go through Paul's epistle to the Romans slowly and examine all of the places where the word "flesh" appears. You're going to see that it never has to do with any sort of alleged "sinful nature" and that it always has to do with either literal flesh as in skin or as in one's fleshly genealogy or it has to do with circumcision and the law.
"The works of the flesh", contextually, as Paul actually described them, refer to any violations of God's commandments which are inevitable for anybody who only has an outward circumcision in the foreskin of their flesh. Again, Paul said that the law is spiritual, right? Well, how is an unregenerate person who is void of the Spirit of God and void of the inner circumcision of the heart or spirit ever going to be able to keep the same? IOW, if I tell an unregenerate man to not commit adultery, is he going to be able to obey the same? Remember, adultery, according to Jesus, goes to the heart and way beyond the outward physical act. IOW, to even lust after a woman in one's heart equates with adultery in Jesus' eyes. Anyhow, this is what Paul was talking about. The man with only a fleshly circumcision, no matter how much he wants to obey God, simply will not be able to and he will, inevitable, do "the works of the flesh" or the very works which are condemned by God's spiritual law because he only has an outward fleshly circumcision which renders him powerless in relation to actually obeying God's commandments.
If you'd like to, then maybe we can go through Paul's epistle to the Romans slowly and examine all of the places where the word "flesh" appears. You're going to see that it never has to do with any sort of alleged "sinful nature" and that it always has to do with either literal flesh as in skin or as in one's fleshly genealogy or it has to do with circumcision and the law.
P
I was working as a mover about 5 yrs ago. my client was about 400 miles away and had already started living in his new town. On my last trip (3rd) I was to get all the boxes and trash and clean the house,then head north with the last of his possessions. I found 4 big boxes of silver by the h2o heater.The boxes were so ugly I thought they were trash . They were probably about 100k of coins. The devil said "take em,he doesn't even know he has them.(and he didn't)
Well,not me,He got every single one of them.Not one coin was missing,and those boxes weighed 100 lbs a piece.
Here is the point jason. If you sin just one time,it is like you broke ALL THE LAW.
Only God can boast in his holiness.
You do not know what you are talking about.
Pssst.......look up "sins of omission"
BTW,If I was to take ONE of that man's coins,to God,it would have been as if I took EVERY ONE OF THEM.
Well,not me,He got every single one of them.Not one coin was missing,and those boxes weighed 100 lbs a piece.
Here is the point jason. If you sin just one time,it is like you broke ALL THE LAW.
Only God can boast in his holiness.
You do not know what you are talking about.
Pssst.......look up "sins of omission"
BTW,If I was to take ONE of that man's coins,to God,it would have been as if I took EVERY ONE OF THEM.