Did Jesus come to set the captives free from guilt, or set them free from sin?

[posthuman]

Let me clarify something. I'm not saying that a Christian can't ignore the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit. What I'm saying is that it's impossible for a Christian to sustain the same heart relationship with sin that they had before being saved. To be saved the Spirit becomes one with God. They can certainly be lead by their flesh which should be considered dead and must be crucified daily.

i think i'm basically with you on this but would pick over the phrasing; i would say that as having become new creations in Him, and adopted as children, though we may be for a time led away by 'the deceitfulness of sin' and hardness of heart found in us, He chastens His own, and as a Good Shepherd seeks out what is lost - and that hardness will be broken, to our loss, but for our good - like pottery that must be melted down & reformed.

& closer in keeping to what JesusistheChrist is saying, i believe that we are crucified - past tense - and that we daily "take up" the knowledge and awareness of this, bringing our flesh into harmony with it, because our life is now towards God, by the Spirit, and our duty for the sake of righteousness is to live lives here on earth "worthy of the high calling" that we've received, as Peter put it. to act in a way that reflects who He has made us in Him involves considering ourselves crucified, but the active force here comes from God, apart from us, as a gift from Him.

does this make sense? i don't think my words & phrasings are "perfect" in any way either

 

[Magenta]

You're more than welcome and your politeness is rather refreshing, so thank you as well.

Thank you, this made me chuckle, I shall now go to church with a smile on my face!

 

[popeye]

How bout these "love one another" ?

Thanks ma'm I needed that. (Only a woman of God can deliver a good ole Holy ghost slap)

Healthy stuff I tell ya.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

i think it squares through this --

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
(Romans 6:4-6)
​

actually in the first 10 verses of Romans 6, not just these 3, Paul says over and over that we have died with Christ, past tense. and then in verse 11 he gives the first directive in the whole letter:

reckon yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
(Romans 6:11)
​

he doesn't tell us "crucify yourselves" -- but to consider ourselves crucified. we're already positionally dead with regard to sin, and that was accomplished on His cross, when we believed, an act of His grace greater than time itself, because He died once for all sin.

Amen.

this is exactly like what Christ instructs, that we should "

take up our cross daily" and follow Him. not that we should nail ourselves to the cross daily, but shoulder it - remember it, acknowledge it, make our corporeal lives reflect it, because spiritually, it is reality.
does this make sense? it's sort of a fine point, and to me illustrates who is the one acting, and who is the one responding.
but hey maybe i got this all wrong; do correct me please

The cross was a place or means of execution. In my present understanding, Jesus instructed His disciples to take up their crosses daily not because they had to crucify their flesh daily as some allege, but rather because they risked being executed as one of His followers on a daily basis.

 

[posthuman]

I was working as a mover about 5 yrs ago. my client was about 400 miles away and had already started living in his new town. On my last trip (3rd) I was to get all the boxes and trash and clean the house,then head north with the last of his possessions. I found 4 big boxes of silver by the h2o heater.The boxes were so ugly I thought they were trash . They were probably about 100k of coins. The devil said "take em,he doesn't even know he has them.(and he didn't)


Well,not me,He got every single one of them.Not one coin was missing,and those boxes weighed 100 lbs a piece.

Here is the point jason. If you sin just one time,it is like you broke ALL THE LAW.
Only God can boast in his holiness.

You do not know what you are talking about.

Pssst.......look up "sins of omission"

BTW,If I was to take ONE of that man's coins,to God,it would have been as if I took EVERY ONE OF THEM.

aye, someone might obey every traffic rule every day of their lives for 5 million miles and 60 years, but never receive a reward from the DMV for it.
but fail to come to a complete stop @ the intersection just once, and the patrolman is completely justified to give you a citation, and you will liable to the court just like anyone else, no matter how clean your record was, for how long.
now you can plead to the judge and point at your past history - but what are you asking for in that case?

MERCY
​

& you had better ask for it, not demand it!


on the one hand, i'm glad to hear someone has been equal to the glory of God 24 hours a day ((some days))
but on the other hand, i have a hard time believing it is true.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
(Romans 3:23)​

 

[oldthennew]

for us, without our Intercessor sitting on the right hand of God the Father, we would be without hope,
we would be separate from God.....

like it is written,
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled,
we shall be saved by His Life.....
how are we SAVED by His Life?
as it is written,
'HE EVER LIVES TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR OUR SIN', 'on-a-need-to-confess-basis' - f
as it is written,
IF we confess our sins, He is Faithful and Just to forgive us..or if we have one 'un-repentant' sin against us,
then the penalty is due US, and 'we will pay' -
if we don't go to our High Priest, that is, have a DAILY=CONTINUAL=RELATIONSHIP with Him,
then our faith is 'dead'.....

no conviction = no sincerity = no life in Christ...

 

[posthuman]

Amen.

i'm happy we agree

​

The cross was a place or means of execution. In my present understanding, Jesus instructed His disciples to take up their crosses daily not because they had to crucify their flesh daily as some allege, but rather because they risked being executed as one of His followers on a daily basis.

yes! this too, i agree.

 

[oyster67]

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Here in Romans 7, Paul is speaking in the present tense, is he not? I am wondering how it squares with you saying Paul does not need to crucify his flesh daily. Is he not saying he is still a slave to the law of sin in his flesh, which he overcomes by the power of God?

Amen. I too thought of Romans 7 when the issue of present tense came up. I also thought of Luke 9:23...

"... if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Amen. I too thought of Romans 7 when the issue of present tense came up. I also thought of Luke 9:23...

"... if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

Regarding the present tense, I'd encourage you to research what the historical present is in Greek and how it is used in the Bible.

As far as taking up our crosses daily is concerned, again, the cross was a place or means of execution and Jesus was informing His disciples, which includes us, btw, that on any given day they might be executed for His sake and the gospel's sake.

 

[oyster67]

The cross was a place or means of execution. In my present understanding, Jesus instructed His disciples to take up their crosses daily not because they had to crucify their flesh daily as some allege, but rather because they risked being executed as one of His followers on a daily basis.

I believe that Luke 9:23 refers to struggling against temptation. If we became righteous robots once we were born again, then we would not need verses like this.

For sure, fear of persecution is one of those temptations we must struggle against.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I believe that Luke 9:23 refers to struggling against temptation. If we became righteous robots once we were born again, then we would not need verses like this.

I'm not sure what you mean by "righteous robots", but the parallel account in Matthew's gospel seems to suggest otherwise in relation to what taking up our crosses daily actually means:

"From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matthew 16:21-26)

When Jesus spoke to His disciples about His impending death via crucifixion, Peter rebuked Him and said, "Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee" and Jesus, in turn, told Peter that he was being inspired by Satan in that he savored not the things which are of God, but the things which are of men. Jesus then continued on to tell all of His disciples that in order to truly be His disciples they needed to take up their own crosses daily or be willing to lose their own lives for His sake in order to truly find them.

 

[shotgunner]

i think i'm basically with you on this but would pick over the phrasing; i would say that as having become new creations in Him, and adopted as children, though we may be for a time led away by 'the deceitfulness of sin' and hardness of heart found in us, He chastens His own, and as a Good Shepherd seeks out what is lost - and that hardness will be broken, to our loss, but for our good - like pottery that must be melted down & reformed.

& closer in keeping to what JesusistheChrist is saying, i believe that we are crucified - past tense - and that we daily "take up" the knowledge and awareness of this, bringing our flesh into harmony with it, because our life is now towards God, by the Spirit, and our duty for the sake of righteousness is to live lives here on earth "worthy of the high calling" that we've received, as Peter put it. to act in a way that reflects who He has made us in Him involves considering ourselves crucified, but the active force here comes from God, apart from us, as a gift from Him.

does this make sense? i don't think my words & phrasings are "perfect" in any way either

That's fine by me. I was thinking about this scripture speaking of keeping the body in control, but it is scripturally correct that the body is dead because of sin and we have already been crucified with Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:27King James Version (KJV)[SUP]27 [/SUP]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway

 

[oyster67]

Btw, Paul never said anything about "the flesh being crucified daily". Here is what he actually said:

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24)

HAVE crucified.

In relation to dying daily, Paul said:

"And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die." (I Corinthians 15:30-32)

Paul "died daily" in that he daily put his physical life in jeopardy for the gospel's sake. He didn't need to somehow "crucify his flesh daily".

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (I Corinthians 9:24-27)

Paul did bring his own body into subjection to Christ via temperance which is one of the fruits of the Spirit, but to say that he needed to somehow "crucify his flesh daily" is rather preposterous. I mean, Paul said that he was crucified with Christ, didn't he? If Paul needed to be crucified daily, then does Christ need to be crucified daily as well? Think about it, please.

Matt 6:13 (KJV)
13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

I believe we need to pray this prayer daily.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Did Jesus come to set the captives free from guilt, or set them free from sin?

Other: Jesus came to set the oppressed free -- even you, Jason!

 

[Socreta93]

He came to testify the truth

 

[oyster67]

aye, someone might obey every traffic rule every day of their lives for 5 million miles and 60 years, but never receive a reward from the DMV for it.
but fail to come to a complete stop @ the intersection just once, and the patrolman is completely justified to give you a citation, and you will liable to the court just like anyone else, no matter how clean your record was, for how long.
now you can plead to the judge and point at your past history - but what are you asking for in that case?

MERCY
​

& you had better ask for it, not demand it!

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
(Romans 3:23)​

Amen, humility can get us a long way in the Kingdom...

Luke 17:10 (KJV)
10) So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.