Question About Tongues

[pwrnJC]

KJV1611.....there are only 2 kinds of churches: the Happy/Clappy & the Frozen/Chosen. Both are based purely on how the congregation chooses to conduct their worship services. I was raised Southern Baptist also..but my Grandparents were Holiness. I was exposed to both types of churches. Personally, I enjoy pentacostal/evangelical congregations because they do not dictate the order of the service by the printed Sunday bulletin. THe holy spirit is invited to be part of the worship and praise. There are NO clocks in the sanctuary to remind the pastor when 12 Noon is near. Women are allowed to openly worship and lead or pray or be a big part of the worship. The altar is always open, songs are not sung in printed order, holy spirit filled members are always moving around in the room, praying, lifting hands, uplifting others, assisting at the altar. You can hear pages being turned as the BIBLE is studied. GOD inhabits the praises of His people..nowhere do I find that lighting candles when we enter and/or leave invokes God's presence. The choir is usually jubilant, swaying as they sing and rarely in step with each other.
Needless to say...I no longer attend a baptist church...not that I think I am better than that, but I find that heaven is not a library to sit and stay quiet in..so I might as well get a little jubilation started here, my praise mode in high gear and my joy overflowing NOW as preparation of what heaven will be like.

 

[shotgunner]

Man didn't lose anything, it was all by design. The first man Adam was made a living soul, the second Adam a quickening spirit. The flesh was never going to inherit eternal life or any of the promises made to Abraham and Jesus Christ.

When Jesus said Lo I'm with you always even unto the end of the world... he's talking about the pages of the bible. Jesus is the Word, he speaks to me almost daily through the pages of the bible.

Jesus does speak through the word but the Holy Spirit lives inside believers to teach and comfort, speaking to us and guiding us. The Holy Spirit is a person, not just written words.

Adam lost everything, he died spiritually on the day he ate of the forbidden tree. Jesus came to restore or reconcile us to God. I don't think we fully know all Adam lost. His sin must have effected even Heaven ,since Jesus took his blood into the Heavenly sanctuary and cleansed it as described in Hebrews 9.

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus does speak through the word but the Holy Spirit lives inside believers to teach and comfort, speaking to us and guiding us. The Holy Spirit is a person, not just written words.

Adam lost everything, he died spiritually on the day he ate of the forbidden tree. Jesus came to restore or reconcile us to God. I don't think we fully know all Adam lost. His sin must have effected even Heaven ,since Jesus took his blood into the Heavenly sanctuary and cleansed it as described in Hebrews 9.

Where does the bible say Adam died spiritually?

 

[KJV1611]

KJV1611.....there are only 2 kinds of churches: the Happy/Clappy & the Frozen/Chosen. Both are based purely on how the congregation chooses to conduct their worship services. I was raised Southern Baptist also..but my Grandparents were Holiness. I was exposed to both types of churches. Personally, I enjoy pentacostal/evangelical congregations because they do not dictate the order of the service by the printed Sunday bulletin. THe holy spirit is invited to be part of the worship and praise. There are NO clocks in the sanctuary to remind the pastor when 12 Noon is near. Women are allowed to openly worship and lead or pray or be a big part of the worship. The altar is always open, songs are not sung in printed order, holy spirit filled members are always moving around in the room, praying, lifting hands, uplifting others, assisting at the altar. You can hear pages being turned as the BIBLE is studied. GOD inhabits the praises of His people..nowhere do I find that lighting candles when we enter and/or leave invokes God's presence. The choir is usually jubilant, swaying as they sing and rarely in step with each other.
Needless to say...I no longer attend a baptist church...not that I think I am better than that, but I find that heaven is not a library to sit and stay quiet in..so I might as well get a little jubilation started here, my praise mode in high gear and my joy overflowing NOW as preparation of what heaven will be like.

I'm not a church person, I quite going to church when they started telling me my bible was full or errors and I couldn't trust it.
What is your opinion of people like Rodney Howard Brown, Todd Bentley and Kenneth Copeland?

 

[shotgunner]

Where does the bible say Adam died spiritually?

It is implied from other scriptures. God did say that he would die on the day he ate of it. you also have to know that God doesn't consider physical death as death. Jesus tell us that all who believe on him will never die. He doesn't mean the physical body will live forever. For God death is separation from him, spiritual death.

 

[shotgunner]

I'm not a church person, I quite going to church when they started telling me my bible was full or errors and I couldn't trust it.
What is your opinion of people like Rodney Howard Brown, Todd Bentley and Kenneth Copeland?

I think it best to let God deal with his own servants. It's too easy for us to judge wrongly.

 

[RickyZ]

Man didn't lose anything, it was all by design. The first man Adam was made a living soul, the second Adam a quickening spirit. The flesh was never going to inherit eternal life or any of the promises made to Abraham and Jesus Christ.

When Jesus said Lo I'm with you always even unto the end of the world... he's talking about the pages of the bible. Jesus is the Word, he speaks to me almost daily through the pages of the bible.

Wow, that is the most hollow and empty understanding of Christ that I have ever heard.

 

[RickyZ]

But it sure explains a lot about how you think.

 

[phil112]

It is implied from other scriptures. God did say that he would die on the day he ate of it. you also have to know that God doesn't consider physical death as death. Jesus tell us that all who believe on him will never die. He doesn't mean the physical body will live forever. For God death is separation from him, spiritual death.

It amazes me how poorly some people misunderstand scripture, yet somehow still feel qualified to teach.

It amazes me how poorly some people misunderstand scripture, yet somehow still feel qualified to teach.

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Who do you think appointed men to die once?

 

[convallaria]

This subject fascinates me, I appreciate the conversation. Where does the bible say that an unknown tongue isn't another earthly language?

Only that if it were an earthly language it wouldn't be described as "unknown", but "unfamiliar".

 

[atwhatcost]

Does this mean that if a man speaks in an unknown tongue then he has to speak with at least one other man and at the most two other men?

-or-

Does it mean that if a man speaks in an unknown tongue then the unknown tongue is limited to one of three unknown tongues?

This is why it's good they keep updating the Bible to more modern English. We don't live in the 17th century, so don't understand some of the way they talked. "By course" means taking turns. In an orderly fashion.

Here ya go:
1 Cor. 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

 

[atwhatcost]

Unless you add to the scripture, it doesn't say that here:

1Co_14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

If a man is going to speak in an unknown tongue,let it be by two....

I personally don't think the verse is talking about how many people can speak at a time, but how many unknown tongues can be spoken. I personally believe the unknown tongues are Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek... and let one (God) interpret.

I'm just looking at other peoples views and why they believe what they believe with this post.

Why don't you believe it's how many should speak? It goes right on to include the order of prophets too, and, again only two or three.

The whole section is about orderliness in a church service.

 

[atwhatcost]

Any Greek experts able to explain this verse from the Greek perspective?

1Co_14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

You can do it. Strong used KJV when he created his concordance. Just look in Strong's Concordance. (I suspect there is one online that actually does full verses, but I can't find it. E-Sword does it for me.)

 

[atwhatcost]

If you read down through verse 28 the context remains singular as in ONE man speaking...it seems it is indicative of a singular man speaking one to three languages with ONE interpreting and if no interpreters let him SPEAK to himself........just off the cuff...

If you keep going to verse 32, you'll see the same deal for the prophets.

 

[atwhatcost]

That's the way I see it also and I'm pretty sure it's right. This is another reason I think the tongues speakers are bogus. They claim the bible says that tongues should be spoken by two or three people at the most.... and the verse has absolutely nothing to do with how many people can speak, it's all about how many different unknown languages they are allowed to speak in.

Oh, sorry. I thought you wanted to understand God's words, not what you think it ought to be.

Speaking of bogus.

 

[ember]

Tongues will CEASE, Prophecies shall FAIL and Imparted KNOLWEDGE will vanish away....Paul was clear....NOW ABIDETH...NOT next week, not next year, not when Jesus comes, but RIGHT NOW (when PAUL pens the Corinthian letter) RIGHT NOW ABIDES FAITH, HOPE and LOVE.......I will not argue....those who want to reject the word NOW ABIDETH, CEASE, FAILETH and VANISH AWAY have a ball.....I will wait till I see the Lord and he can instruct me if my stance on the above 6 words are in error as applied unto the gifts of the early church!

How is it, that people believe themselves to be definitive regarding the above and will declare that the Bible is that which is perfect and then in the next breath state that certain verses are spurious because they are not to be found in earliest manuscripts?

Prophecies are still needing to be fulfilled unless one is a preterist and of the belief Jesus came back in 70 AD, and knowledge has not passed away...it is just as obvious that tongues have not passed away. You say you don't want to argue and you appear to fullfill that statement by your own definitve statement. However, I personally do not see you as the end of knowledge, which you might have to be in order to make your statement.

I have no doubt you pursue truth and are very sincere and I really do not want to argue either. However, there is just as strong a case to be made which states the opposite of that which you do....and both parties believing as completely in our Lord Jesus Christ as you say you do.

So yes, you can wait and I have no doubt salvation is exclusive of whether one speaks in tongues or casts out demons or has visions or prays for the sick and they are healed.

God IS Spirit...He is invisible yet He can be seen in creation and some of us taste of that Spirit in the here and now as God sees fit to share. I cannot judge anyone for refusal or lack of desire because I have seen way too much distortion and people trying to use the gifts instead of God using them for His glory...there is often a mix of spirits in that environment and I will have nothing to do with it. And of course, God does allow people to be who they are, often exclusive of Him, to their detriment.

However, I cannot deny the reality of tongues in my own life or the dedication to God and the desire for truth. It is very easy to reach the end of the road, but really, in this life, the road just keeps going.

For me, discernment is one of the most needed attributes needed in the here and now. At any rate, you won't be needing any gifts once you see Him face to face.

 

[convallaria]

SUMMARY
OK so now we can reflect on what we have learned during the course of this discussion on this thread and the others.
We know that the gifts of God including tongues have not ceased. We know also that tongues are not essential to salvation. We also know, however, that the Holy Spirit IS essential to salvation, because as the scripture says, he who has not the Spirit of Christ is none of His. Also John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Ok so what remains is to establish evidence on here BESIDES speaking in tongues, according to the scriptures, particularly those in Mark 16 (casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead etc.,) and those 9 gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 as follows:
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
We also know that another sure sign of the Holy Spirit indwelling is some evidence of the fruit of the Spirit, as in Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel it is significant that those who attacked some of us for speaking in tongues have so far been unable to demonstrate either the fruit of the Spirit as above, or to testify of the gifts of the Spirit given to them by God at some point after conversion.
Now, please tell me, am I wrong to conclude that the tongue-haters, on this basis, are not born again? Because if this is the case, the broad church membership is in a very sorry state.

 

[ember]

"perfect" is in the neuter gender. It cannot, cannot,cannot ,cannot refer to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is NOT a "thing" He is always referred to in the masculine gender.

And the believers "perfection" or "glorification" is the feminine gender.


The "perfect" is the completed canon.

No...the Bible is not perfect...not in the sense that in and of itself it is all we need to know concerning God. It is not a relationship and it appears to be different things to different people.

Further, why does this 'perfection' include verses that are declared spurious by most who actually study scripture?

I hold the Bible as God's word but I hold God as God and the perfect being referred to, is not Jesus, but rather life with God in heaven and finnally being in His presence and having that 'aha' moment when all the mysteries come together in the personhood of the Trinity and we are at last knowing as we have been known all along.

Are people bringing their Bibles into heaven? Is that our passport? Of course not...it's not what 'the perfect' is!!!

 

[shotgunner]

It amazes me how poorly some people misunderstand scripture, yet somehow still feel qualified to teach.

It amazes me how poorly some people misunderstand scripture, yet somehow still feel qualified to teach.

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Who do you think appointed men to die once?

I see what you are saying and there's no need to go into attack mode and question my worthiness to teach. I simply see the scriptures as speaking of two different deaths. The author of Hebrews was speaking of physical death and both the Father and Son are speaking of spiritual death. When Jesus says that if you believe on me you will never die and God tells Adam that on the day he eats the fruit he will die, they are speaking of spiritual death. Jesus was speaking of Spiritual birth as well since those who don't believe are already spiritually dead.


Hope that clears it up for you, but we could have arrived here with less hostility. I am not your enemy ,neither do I want to be.

 

[notuptome]

No...the Bible is not perfect...not in the sense that in and of itself it is all we need to know concerning God. It is not a relationship and it appears to be different things to different people.

Further, why does this 'perfection' include verses that are declared spurious by most who actually study scripture?

I hold the Bible as God's word but I hold God as God and the perfect being referred to, is not Jesus, but rather life with God in heaven and finnally being in His presence and having that 'aha' moment when all the mysteries come together in the personhood of the Trinity and we are at last knowing as we have been known all along.

Are people bringing their Bibles into heaven? Is that our passport? Of course not...it's not what 'the perfect' is!!!

Perfect in the context is or should be rendered complete. The English translation is tripping up on this one.

We will not require a written copy of our bibles in heaven for will have written it upon our hearts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger