Rich and Famous Pastors

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Feb 7, 2015
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Isn't that what Catholics believe, more or less?
No, I think they believe in a holding pen called Purgatory. And I think they can get out of there by being prayed out or something like that.

I believe in punishment, but not in never-ending punishment.
 

Jenizona

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2015
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No, I think they believe in a holding pen called Purgatory. And I think they can get out of there by being prayed out or something like that.

I believe in punishment, but not in never-ending punishment.
Right, the Catholic purgatory is not a never-ending punishment. So what's the difference between that and what you believe? Just curious!
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
You are absolutely right! I did look at the wrong but supporting verses. But let us look at Col. 1:18, and you will find it says exactly the same thing as Col. 1:15

"And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent." Col. 1:18

"καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν ἡ κεφαλὴ τοῦ σώματος τῆς ἐκκλησίας· ὅς ἐστιν ἀρχή, πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν, ἵνα γένηται ἐν πᾶσιν αὐτὸς πρωτεύων," Col. 1:18

πρωτότοκος or prototokos is a present active participle which means first place, to be first. You can easily see it is the same word used in Col 1:15 πρωτότοκος although that one was in the perfect tense.

But totally unrelated to "born again" as found in John 3:7 γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν, which is the word for "born again."

Sorry for getting the wrong verse, but it all comes out the same.

"First born" does NOT means the same thing as "born again."
You are still missing the question. I understand that you are saying that "firstborn" is not the same as "born again".

I understand that here you say firstborn is to be first.
πρωτότοκος or prototokos is a present active participle which means first place, to be first. You can easily see it is the same word used in Col 1:15 πρωτότοκος although that one was in the perfect tense.

What I'm asking about is "from the dead", as in first from the dead. It doesn't matter that firstborn doesn't mean born again. It seems to be saying that Jesus is the first from the dead which would be essentially the same thing.


I'm not saying Jesus went to Hell. I don't have scripture to support that right now. There is however scriptures that can't be overlooked when looking into this subject.

1. Jesus cried out on the cross " My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

2. Moses lifted up the brass serpent in the wilderness which was a figure of Jesus on the cross. Jesus even said so when he said he must be lifted up just like Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness. Serpent representing sin.

3. Then there's II Cor. 5:21, that says that Jesus is made sin for us so that we might be made righteousness in him.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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Right, the Catholic purgatory is not a never-ending punishment. So what's the difference between that and what you believe? Just curious!
The difference is that, from what I understand, this Purgatory is just a holding pen till a certain required amount of time runs out to atone for whatever particular category of "unconfessed" sins the Catholics died with still hanging over their heads. It has nothing at all to do with a change of heart.... just paying the debt and doing the sentence.

I am talking about a punishment that we could stay in forever if we do not ever choose to accept Christ. Do you have any younger siblings? Maybe they weren't Christians at that age. If so, and they had been killed in a car wreck at 15 or 16, do you feel they would now be burning in a "Hell" forever? (There's more if you would like to go into it in a PM sometime.)

By the way, the Jewish religion never had the hint of a Hell concept until the Babylonian exiles picked up the notion during the 400 some years (quite a few generations... more than 10) they spent there. "Death" to the ancient Jews was, basically, annihilation.
 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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You are still missing the question. I understand that you are saying that "firstborn" is not the same as "born again".

I understand that here you say firstborn is to be first.
πρωτότοκος or prototokos is a present active participle which means first place, to be first. You can easily see it is the same word used in Col 1:15 πρωτότοκος although that one was in the perfect tense.

What I'm asking about is "from the dead", as in first from the dead. It doesn't matter that firstborn doesn't mean born again. It seems to be saying that Jesus is the first from the dead which would be essentially the same thing.


I'm not saying Jesus went to Hell. I don't have scripture to support that right now. There is however scriptures that can't be overlooked when looking into this subject.

1. Jesus cried out on the cross " My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

2. Moses lifted up the brass serpent in the wilderness which was a figure of Jesus on the cross. Jesus even said so when he said he must be lifted up just like Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness. Serpent representing sin.

3. Then there's II Cor. 5:21, that says that Jesus is made sin for us so that we might be made righteousness in him.
Born again - a live human being, to whom God imparts his grace, who believes in Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins. We are not God, and it takes a work of God through the Holy Spirit to change our sinful nature. So a living human being is given a new nature by God, and enables that person to follow Jesus.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor. 5:17

First born from the dead - Jesus was already God. He died for our sins on the cross. (I know, I already said that!) Then he is raised from the dead. He was the first person who is raised, and we anticipate a time, when Jesus returns, and the dead will be raised to incorruptible bodies, and live with Jesus forever.

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. [SUP]53 [/SUP]For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality." 1 Cor. 15:52-53

So you see,

"
born again" -εννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν from gennao in Greek, meaning a human being, still alive is made right in the sight of God by God's grace and believing in Jesus' death on the cross and the resurrection. A spiritual transformation. Born again, means a living person becomes a spiritually alive person.

"first born from the dead" - πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν with Prototokos meaning first born. And that Jesus died for our sins. Not born again. Not the right words in Greek, not the same meaning as born again in any way, shape or form. Jesus did not need any kind of spiritual transformation or justification, or sanctification, as he was already God and already perfect. A dead person becomes alive in a new, resurrected body, and Jesus was the first. And although he was God, he willingly died on the cross for our sins, which he bore on the cross.

Sorry I cannot make it simpler than this. NOT the same words, not the same meaning. That's all I've got.

As for Jesus going to hell, just no! Not in the Bible. The work of Christ was accomplished on the cross. Jesus said "It is finished." He did not need to go to hell to finish the work, as it was done when he died on the cross.

"After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.” [SUP]29 [/SUP]A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. [SUP]30 [/SUP]When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." John 19:28-30

As far as 2 Cor. 5:21, clearly means that Jesus took sin upon him, and it was nailed to the cross. 1 Peter 2:24 confirms this.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24

A quote from Isaiah 53:5, in which Isaiah prophecies the coming Messiah will spiritually heal us. (Not about physical healing!)

"But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.


[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;" Isa. 53:5-10


 
L

LT

Guest
I hold (rather lightly) to eternal, unconscious torment.
Not quite annihilationism,
as the smoke of their torment will rise from the pit forever,
but I don't see conscious torment as being necessary.

God designed a mechanism, called shock, within all life, to shut down the nervous system when overloaded by pain.
It seems well within God's character to keep that mode.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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I hold (rather lightly) to eternal, unconscious torment.
Not quite annihilationism,
as the smoke of their torment will rise from the pit forever,
but I don't see conscious torment as being necessary.

God designed a mechanism, called shock, within all life, to shut down the nervous system when overloaded by pain.
It seems well within God's character to keep that mode.
An interesting outlook.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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that is exactly the type of thing spell check does...I don't think there is a ghost in the machine here

look at your settings...on your computer...spell check activated?
click on Preview post before you click submit and it will show you how the post will look, make any corrections necessary before clicking submit with the reply and remember to Proofread so that you can be as sure as you know how to come across the way you intended.
 
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shotgunner

Guest
Angela wrote
First born from the dead - Jesus was already God. He died for our sins on the cross. (I know, I already said that!) Then he is raised from the dead. He was the first person who is raised, and we anticipate a time, when Jesus returns, and the dead will be raised to incorruptible bodies, and live with Jesus forever.

But Jesus was not the first person raised from the dead, as far a physical death.

I would like to discuss this and would appreciate answers that are not in thesis form. Just simple answers in laymen's terms would be more practical. You may proceed as if I know the scriptures that you might list. You can't list a scripture I disagree with.

So, just in simple terms and short as possible. Can you clearly explain what it means that Jesus is the first born from the dead? It can't mean the first person raised from the dead. Jesus himself raised 3 from the dead. Also, I can't see where Jesus could have died as God since man had to pay the price for man's sin, otherwise why would God come as a man.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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Angela wrote
First born from the dead - Jesus was already God. He died for our sins on the cross. (I know, I already said that!) Then he is raised from the dead. He was the first person who is raised, and we anticipate a time, when Jesus returns, and the dead will be raised to incorruptible bodies, and live with Jesus forever.

But Jesus was not the first person raised from the dead, as far a physical death.

I would like to discuss this and would appreciate answers that are not in thesis form. Just simple answers in laymen's terms would be more practical. You may proceed as if I know the scriptures that you might list. You can't list a scripture I disagree with.

So, just in simple terms and short as possible. Can you clearly explain what it means that Jesus is the first born from the dead? It can't mean the first person raised from the dead. Jesus himself raised 3 from the dead. Also, I can't see where Jesus could have died as God since man had to pay the price for man's sin, otherwise why would God come as a man.
Maybe the first resurrected under the New Covenant?
 
L

LT

Guest
Back to the OP just for a second:
"Famous" is not the issue. It is not what sets off red flags.
"Rich" is an issue. It sets off reds flags.

A wealthy ministry is good, as long as it is administering all of it.
A wealthy minister is never good. There is no need for them.
"A worker is worth his wages". No human is actually deserving of $175m.
 
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shotgunner

Guest
Maybe the first resurrected under the New Covenant?
Possibly Willie
You still have however the fact that God forsook Jesus on the cross. Jesus said so.

You still have the references to Jesus being made sin as the serpent lifted in the wilderness and II Cor.5:21.

I won't say Jesus went to hell, but a strong case can be made that he died spiritually as well as physically.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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Possibly Willie
You still have however the fact that God forsook Jesus on the cross. Jesus said so.

You still have the references to Jesus being made sin as the serpent lifted in the wilderness and II Cor.5:21.

I won't say Jesus went to hell, but a strong case can be made that he died spiritually as well as physically.
No, actually, he didn't. He was quoting one of the Psalms, as I recall (maybe 22 ???) and it does not end with just that statement. Then there are some other verses where we are told Jesus was never forsaken for even a moment.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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Possibly Willie
You still have however the fact that God forsook Jesus on the cross. Jesus said so.

You still have the references to Jesus being made sin as the serpent lifted in the wilderness and II Cor.5:21.

I won't say Jesus went to hell, but a strong case can be made that he died spiritually as well as physically.
I also see that He "became sin" so that when He died a physical death (which was the ONLY penalty for sinning) sin would be forced to die with Him.... and would be left in the grave when Jesus resurrected.
 
L

LT

Guest
The highest estimate for Billy Graham's net worth is $25m. That estimate falsely includes 3 multi-million dollar facilities owned by his ministry group, as part of his net worth.
The average estimate of Billy Graham's net worth is around $9m.

Yet Creflo Dollar needs and deserves a $20m jet...
And Pastor Macedo obviously deserves his net worth of $1.1Billion...

The most famous evangelist alive, and he made nothing compared to these thieves. By CHOICE!
He set his salary modestly, and gave away all his royalties, and never accepted speaking fees.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Angela wrote
First born from the dead - Jesus was already God. He died for our sins on the cross. (I know, I already said that!) Then he is raised from the dead. He was the first person who is raised, and we anticipate a time, when Jesus returns, and the dead will be raised to incorruptible bodies, and live with Jesus forever.

But Jesus was not the first person raised from the dead, as far a physical death.

I would like to discuss this and would appreciate answers that are not in thesis form. Just simple answers in laymen's terms would be more practical. You may proceed as if I know the scriptures that you might list. You can't list a scripture I disagree with.

So, just in simple terms and short as possible. Can you clearly explain what it means that Jesus is the first born from the dead? It can't mean the first person raised from the dead. Jesus himself raised 3 from the dead. Also, I can't see where Jesus could have died as God since man had to pay the price for man's sin, otherwise why would God come as a man.
Sorry, 8 years of post-secondary education makes it difficult to break the habit of theological and science type posts.

I think it is fairly simple. Yes, Jesus raised dead people to life. But not to eternal life. They lived out a normal life span, and then died. Jesus, on the other hand, was the first person raised from the dead to eternal life. He ascended to heaven and lives with the Father, until he returns.

And while Scripture doesn't say that these people who were raised from the dead, died at the end of their lives, when Paul says that Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, he is saying, that he knows for a fact, (from the other disciples, or the inspiration of God) that only Jesus has been dead as a human, and is now back living eternally with the Father, after being resurrected and ascending to heaven. (OK, except for Elijah and Enoch - but they didn't die, they were just taken straight to heaven!)
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,784
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Back to the OP just for a second:
"Famous" is not the issue. It is not what sets off red flags.
"Rich" is an issue. It sets off reds flags.

A wealthy ministry is good, as long as it is administering all of it.
A wealthy minister is never good. There is no need for them.
"A worker is worth his wages". No human is actually deserving of $175m.
While I agree with this post, you must remember that the OP talked about specific preachers, and what they teach. That opened the door to talk about their heresies, and post the verses that prove they are deceived and false teachers. IMHO
 
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shotgunner

Guest
Sorry, 8 years of post-secondary education makes it difficult to break the habit of theological and science type posts.

I think it is fairly simple. Yes, Jesus raised dead people to life. But not to eternal life. They lived out a normal life span, and then died. Jesus, on the other hand, was the first person raised from the dead to eternal life. He ascended to heaven and lives with the Father, until he returns.

And while Scripture doesn't say that these people who were raised from the dead, died at the end of their lives, when Paul says that Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, he is saying, that he knows for a fact, (from the other disciples, or the inspiration of God) that only Jesus has been dead as a human, and is now back living eternally with the Father, after being resurrected and ascending to heaven. (OK, except for Elijah and Enoch - but they didn't die, they were just taken straight to heaven!)
Thanks Angela, I appreciate that explanation. I'll look into it farther, but at least that gives me a second view that seems sound to compare other views against.
 
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shotgunner

Guest
No, actually, he didn't. He was quoting one of the Psalms, as I recall (maybe 22 ???) and it does not end with just that statement. Then there are some other verses where we are told Jesus was never forsaken for even a moment.


I would greatly appreciate it if you can remember those.
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
I also see that He "became sin" so that when He died a physical death (which was the ONLY penalty for sinning) sin would be forced to die with Him.... and would be left in the grave when Jesus resurrected.
I don't see how you can say that. If physical death was the only penalty for sinning then we wouldn't need salvation. The penalty for sin was separation from God, spiritual death. If it were only physical death then we would all be spiritually alive and wouldn't need salvation, we would simply go to Heaven as soon as we died physically.