Charismatics

[tanach]

I have never felt comfortable with this kind of worship. I think a lot of it is to do with personality. If you are an extrovert you will probably feel more at home than those who are not. Having said that there are some things that go on that seem completely insane.

 

[slave]

First of all I believe there are many styles of Churches within Gods Merits that can be a branch of the same body of Christ, there are out-reach styles and more conservative. I think as long as the Deity of Christ is not exploited or other factors that by Gods judgements alter it's fruitfulness I believe God is OK with it.

But I find it difficult not to notice a trend in the end times in view of Church emphasis'. This is a movement that started in 1907 in a Methodist-Sponsored Revival meeting that they saw a uniqueness needing to be added in the Pentecostal experience of Act 2. I believe in the original church base, with styles that can be different. I don't believe in a Church who needs new Apostles, and new faith healers, and self-styled Miracle workers. To me it is not so much what the movement is as to what the original Church already had, and not in way of tongues etc..but in way of the Cross. What todays Church needs to do is return to the Word of God and proclaim the whole of it's counsel in Power and love thru with love of the Holy Spirit.

The danger is to fix our eyes on our own whiteness. No matter how subtle. "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me." Are we lifting up what Christ Himself can do in the place of His Cross? We need not move toward anything special in an experience or a gift we possess, or look to appease men to God . My call from God is simply placed in the fact I have had a glimpse of God's meaning in the Cross, and life can never be the same again, Paul was moved by this motivating factor, as well. What need be there to tap God for more than that? And if the Cross is the reflection of Himself in way of love and motivation, who could place it there that would have His stamp of approval?

It seems we begin to glory in men and the side show instead of the real motivator. I know people will say but it just a reflection of Jesus, but enchantment in the natural realm means to be taken out of our wits by song and rhythm; Spiritual enchantment comes along the line of aggressive Christian work, meetings, and the contagion of other peoples joy, and it is ensnaring.

If we get taken up with, [and this is for any church], Salvation or Holiness, or Divine healing instead of Jesus Christ, we will be disillusioned.We pin our faith to a plan that can be expressed in Words and we glory in it, then we begin to find it does not work and a curious disillusionment begins. It sounds right, even better polished, but the fruit is not that which bears a family likeness to Jesus Christ, and it causes us consternation if we are conscientious and desirous of being all that God wants us to be. Some have given testimony to this. The one who designed us is the completeness to my satisfaction, I need not substitute a single song or a single emphasis that is found already in Him, The life spring water of my Discernment. Praise and Worship are indeed His act of fellowship, but be very careful that the sly one doesn't tilt the court in the game of Spiritual warfare in view of the real power: Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Cross.

 

[slave]

By the way our church rocks from the Spirit too, and we show it! We just don't need to rock extra hard to get more of the Spirit.

 

[wincam]

so it was observed that a Christian in the dark was on his hands and knees under a street lamp looking for something that he seemed to have lost - another well motivated Christian stopping by to help knowing he must have lost something asked exactly where he had lost it was surprised to be told "back there in the dark" - on asking why he was searching for it here he was surprised to hear "because there is more light here" - any comments - wincam

 

[atwhatcost]

What are your thoughts on the Charismatic movement? The whole thing which can include lively worship, tongues, people being slain, laughing, crying, rolling about - you know the whole thing. My church is Charismatic but I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with some of the "goings on" there, it's not as bad as some but it seems to be becoming more Charismatic. I love the lively worship, I believe that worship should be spontaneous, heartfelt and enthusiastic and at times I do get emotional but it's more personal for me - I don't feel the need to let everyone know. Some of the other stuff that goes on at times I'm not so enthused about. I have spoken to like-minded people at the church and we all seem to feel that we aren't "spiritual" enough but then at other times I wonder if it's all real. I think it can be but for sure not always and not everyone is always being real.

Please I respectfully ask to respect the opinions of all and keep this thread on topic and civilised, thank you.

I was saved in 1972, but, due to a promise made to Mom right before she died, (I am my younger brother's godmother -- Catholic Church style -- and she had me promise to raise him in the RCC), I got involved with Catholic Charismatics. Considering I was raised with a Latin mass, it was pretty cool. English words? Whoa! Singing with tambourines and actually singing modern songs? (Godspell became a hit before I left the RCC.) Whoa! But, other than that, (and by this time even the priest were sporting sideburns lol), it wasn't really any different.

When I grew up and no longer was able to keep my promise, (the last straw was a sermon about the Goddess of the Universe -- Mary), I went to other charismatic churches. The worship was great. The sermons were blah. I never really got how the pastor's personal life was the Bible. I mean how is going to the movies with your family or watching your kid at a game biblical? But somehow it was supposed to reflect the Bible.

By that time I was married, and hubby noticed something. Even the worship wasn't God-centered. It was Me-centered. Not so much who God is, but who I am in God. Honestly, ever read the words of Day by Day?
Day by day, oh, dear Lord, three things I pray
To see thee more clearly
Love thee more dearly
Follow thee more nearly, day by day

It's a three-wish-genie list of making ME better. What I want out of God, not who God is. Why he's worthy. What he has done. Yeah, I know, old song by now, but has it changed?

The thing that bothered us most about charismatic was it was always to make the people feel better about themselves. My brother cheated on his wife, divorced her, and married the girl he was cheating with. He's okay with this, because "it is what it is. I am doing what comes natural to me and it's okay to be me." Well, okay, but what's the difference between that and the modern charismatic church? Deep down it seems to be set up to feel okay about ourselves, and God is an afterthought. I was cool with that for more than a decade. Then I noticed something -- God never seemed quite that important, because I was okay. I was comfortable.

It really feels like something is definitely wrong if I'm comfortable. Why were all the people in the Bible fighting for God so absolutely uncomfortable all the time? What did they have that I didn't? I've been seeking that real God since. (See how hard it is to stay away from ME centered? lol)

 

[MadParrotWoman]

One thing I have learned from this thread is that there is a huge range of Charismatic churches and from some of the things read here it would seem that mine is one of the more reserved ones!

 

[Willie-T]

There is only one part in the whole Bible where man of God has ever "dance"

When I see those dancing christians I feel shame for them, and I know that our Lord's name will come blasphemed, be cause of them, and it is wrong.

Our Lord's name should not come to subject of blasphemed because of us.

And look what happened to David's wife because she, like you are doing, "despised" him dancing.

Psalm 149:3 is fairly explicit that God likes it.

 

[atwhatcost]

I can see leaving if you need to because you are uncomfortable, but just be sure you understand that leaving to find God elsewhere almost never works.

If you're ever in Philly, go to Tenth Pres. (They're on the Web too. lol) 80% of them are people who left other churches because the other churches didn't work. If you don't come to Philly, check out your local Presbyterian Church in America, Reformed Presbyterian or Orthodox Presbyterian. I think the same theme happens there too. Sticking with a church simply because it's comfortable only works, if you're comfortable in being uncomfortable. God is uncomfortable as well as comforting. Really hard being in a relationship when the other is the one giving all the effort. The best we can do is try to give back in like kind, but the standard is, literally, inhuman. He's even past superhuman.

 

[atwhatcost]

I think You may have gotten what I said, backward. We don't go someplace to find God. He finds us whenever we are thinking right, and let Him in.... even if we are sitting in a Muslim building.

Or the UVA auditorium watching Jesus Christ Superstar. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

That's a lot of syllalables.

Yeah. He even beats me on the syllable count. lol
(Presbyterian Church of America.)

 

[Willie-T]

One thing I have learned in all my years is that all the effort we expend to "know" God through WHATEVER "performance" methods we employ, Liberal OR Conservative, will do little but frustrate us in the long-run.

The Bible does not stress US knowing God, but God knowing us.

Our small, limited knowledge of God can be likened to a ship sunk in the depths of the ocean. We're the ship and God is the ocean. We are in the vastness of God, but not all of God is in us. The ocean is sometimes miles deep, and is multiple thousands and thousands of miles in scope. But all we can know of all that expanse of ocean is the tiny amount of water contained inside that little sunken ship.

Don't kill yourself (and your relationships) trying to "know" God, but simply be open to Him, and just let Him know you.

 

[Willie-T]

Or the UVA auditorium watching Jesus Christ Superstar. lol

That movie actually had a huge influence on me beginning to desire God.

 

[Willie-T]

If you're ever in Philly, go to Tenth Pres. (They're on the Web too. lol) 80% of them are people who left other churches because the other churches didn't work. If you don't come to Philly, check out your local Presbyterian Church in America, Reformed Presbyterian or Orthodox Presbyterian. I think the same theme happens there too. Sticking with a church simply because it's comfortable only works, if you're comfortable in being uncomfortable. God is uncomfortable as well as comforting. Really hard being in a relationship when the other is the one giving all the effort. The best we can do is try to give back in like kind, but the standard is, literally, inhuman. He's even past superhuman.

I got lost in all the "comfortables" and "uncomfortables."

 

[atwhatcost]

I been raised in a Spirit filled church,so when I go to these quiet well regulated churches...its b-o-r-i-n-g....I wanna see God move and I never seen him move like in a Pentecostal church. To be honest I never seen anyone act too crazy like birthing on the floor lol. However there's this woman my mom knows who prances around at her woman's retreat with a wand in her hand and it drives my mom nuts. She feels like she just putting on a show for attention. So yes some people are not authentic.

I'll be honest. If I stay still for more than 15 minutes, I'm likely to fall asleep -- anywhere, any time, (except traveling, but only because I used to get motion sickness in a car, so I'm really into watching outside the vehicle now. lol) Even if I watch TV without doing something, I have no idea what happened in the next three-quarters of the show. (I usually wake up at the end, and then hubby says something about the climax, and I'm all kinds of embarrassed because I have no idea what he's talking about. lol) To solve that, I'm usually doing something while watching TV, but there seems to be a rule against bringing a crochet project to church service.

So, yes, Charsmatics aren't b-o-r-i-n-g. And I say that knowing I've never seen laughing hyenas, rebirths, or holy rolling. (The closest to "bizarre" I ever saw was the type of dance some were doing in the aisles. Dancing doesn't surprise or bother me. Dancing in the aisles depends on which way they're dancing -- respectfully or like whirling dervishes -- but that dancing was different. We were in a Messianic Jews service, so maybe they just dance differently. It was pretty to watch, but didn't add to anything.) All the Charismatic Services I've ever gone to or been a part of were very orderly. Predictably orderly. But also guaranteed I couldn't fall asleep because the sermon was either no longer than 20 minutes (I start nodding off at 15 minutes. I'm fully asleep at 25 minutes. lol) OR it was group-participation.

And yes! Embarrassingly YES! I have fallen asleep quite often in reformed churches. Hubby knew to nudge me right before I started snoring. The sermons are usually 40-45 minutes long. BUT I learned more about God in those 15-20 minutes before nodding off, than I ever did in the full service of a Charismatic church.

I'm just not there to be entertained. After all, if I'm in it for entertainment value, it's only 2-3 more hours before the pregame show about the football games of the week. I can wait. (Granted, annoys me that they have no good pregame shows for preseason games, but that's another topic. lol)

 

[atwhatcost]

so it was observed that a Christian in the dark was on his hands and knees under a street lamp looking for something that he seemed to have lost - another well motivated Christian stopping by to help knowing he must have lost something asked exactly where he had lost it was surprised to be told "back there in the dark" - on asking why he was searching for it here he was surprised to hear "because there is more light here" - any comments - wincam

One question. What is the price of coffee beans in Venezuela? (As related as any other question with this comment.)

 

[atwhatcost]

One thing I have learned from this thread is that there is a huge range of Charismatic churches and from some of the things read here it would seem that mine is one of the more reserved ones!

Seems like. lol

(And I feel like my church is downright stodgy now. lol)

 

[MadParrotWoman]

I have no problem with lively worship - I love that about our church. The sermons are about 45 minutes, they are Biblical and always encouraging but they have very little in the way of delving deeper into the Bible and the "meaty" stuff if you get my drift. I love enthusiastic worship and I think I would miss that if I changed churches but I am considering is because I cannot take the weird stuff. I do believe in the gifts of the spirit but I do not believe that it is always truly of the spirit in everyone displaying it.

 

[Agricola]

People love to be entertained, in this day and age it is all about pleasing ourselves, we want to see bigger better things, never satisfied and craving more with our technology.

This means the church is ripe for picking by demons, they give a few people an exciting ministry where the preacher will just wave an arm and stuff happens, we see it with Benny Hinn, slain in the spirit aparently, then people get bored with that, they want more, so we have so called Holy Laughter and other experiences, people get bored with that as well and it becomes so yesterday.

Satan has to move with the times, so we have more exciting stuff coming into the church, in past few years it has been fire ministry made famous by Todd Bentley, yet again a touch or wave of the hand will have people burning in a spiritual fire resulting in running around and screaming out in pain, much more entertaining then just falling down.


Our church is independent in nature, we are penticostal/charasmatic, we are 100% guided by God, we have very good worship team, excellent preachers, couple of people who are gifted in giving messages from God in tongues which are then interpreted by a couple of other people who have that gifting. This happens a couple of times a year at most.

We do not restrict Holy Spirit and obey God, pastor and leadership are held accountable by committee of elders and deacons, we are growing and seeing amazing things happen.

We are not perfect, no church is, but one thing we have never had is people rolling around on the floor, people being slain in the manor you expect, I only know of one case of this happening in our church and that was a discreet event which resulted in healing of an elderly woman, all done with no fuss half the congregation did not even know it happened, we do not have the whole congregation babbling away and all this other stuff that goes on.

This convinces me that all these things you see going on are not as a result of Holy Spirit, but demonic spirits, however that is not to say everything is wrong, you do not counterfeit a $49 bill. Satan takes what is good and corrupts it.

 

[atwhatcost]

One thing I have learned in all my years is that all the effort we expend to "know" God through WHATEVER "performance" methods we employ, Liberal OR Conservative, will do little but frustrate us in the long-run.

The Bible does not stress US knowing God, but God knowing us.

Our small, limited knowledge of God can be likened to a ship sunk in the depths of the ocean. We're the ship and God is the ocean. We are in the vastness of God, but not all of God is in us. The ocean is sometimes miles deep, and is multiple thousands and thousands of miles in scope. But all we can know of all that expanse of ocean is the tiny amount of water contained inside that little sunken ship.

Don't kill yourself (and your relationships) trying to "know" God, but simply be open to Him, and just let Him know you.

I didn't get this. (Not determining if you're right or wrong, because I didn't get it.) God is omniscient. What doesn't he know about us? (And that's where I got lost, so I didn't get the rest.)

 

[Willie-T]

I'll be honest. If I stay still for more than 15 minutes, I'm likely to fall asleep -- anywhere, any time, (except traveling, but only because I used to get motion sickness in a car, so I'm really into watching outside the vehicle now. lol) Even if I watch TV without doing something, I have no idea what happened in the next three-quarters of the show. (I usually wake up at the end, and then hubby says something about the climax, and I'm all kinds of embarrassed because I have no idea what he's talking about. lol) To solve that, I'm usually doing something while watching TV, but there seems to be a rule against bringing a crochet project to church service.

So, yes, Charsmatics aren't b-o-r-i-n-g. And I say that knowing I've never seen laughing hyenas, rebirths, or holy rolling. (The closest to "bizarre" I ever saw was the type of dance some were doing in the aisles. Dancing doesn't surprise or bother me. Dancing in the aisles depends on which way they're dancing -- respectfully or like whirling dervishes -- but that dancing was different. We were in a Messianic Jews service, so maybe they just dance differently. It was pretty to watch, but didn't add to anything.) All the Charismatic Services I've ever gone to or been a part of were very orderly. Predictably orderly. But also guaranteed I couldn't fall asleep because the sermon was either no longer than 20 minutes (I start nodding off at 15 minutes. I'm fully asleep at 25 minutes. lol) OR it was group-participation.

And yes! Embarrassingly YES! I have fallen asleep quite often in reformed churches. Hubby knew to nudge me right before I started snoring. The sermons are usually 40-45 minutes long. BUT I learned more about God in those 15-20 minutes before nodding off, than I ever did in the full service of a Charismatic church.

I'm just not there to be entertained. After all, if I'm in it for entertainment value, it's only 2-3 more hours before the pregame show about the football games of the week. I can wait. (Granted, annoys me that they have no good pregame shows for preseason games, but that's another topic. lol)

There really isn't. We had a couple that, at every service, knitted the entire time. She has since, died, but he continues the knitting. It is their "ministry". They make caps and booties for newborns..... hundreds and hundreds of them.