Charismatics

[JesusistheChrist]

Sounds like you might have had a pastor there who was afraid of confrontation. Chances are that if the things you say bothered you, it bothered someone else, and might be a leading of the Spirit. At least, if you were not a novice in seeing people worship in different ways. Of coarse nearly anything would seem strange to someone only accustomed to three songs from the red book.

The pastor was the one responsible for the whole mess to begin with. I'm sorry to say this, but the guy really didn't know anything when it comes to the things of God and even the associate pastors on staff believed the same thing about him as did many of the congregants. He took a trip out to Toronto to witness the so-called "Toronto Blessing" of that day and he consequently brought all of the aforementioned nonsense back with him from there.

 

[crossnote]

There is only one part in the whole Bible where man of God has ever "dance"

When I see those dancing christians I feel shame for them, and I know that our Lord's name will come blasphemed, be cause of them, and it is wrong.

Our Lord's name should not come to subject of blasphemed because of us.

Take a concordance, there are literally dozens of references to dancing spoken positively in Scripture, here are just two examples...

Jeremiah 31:4, 13 (KJV)
4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.

 

[Galatians2-20]

Modern "Charismatic" Churches are the result of the hybridization over the past 60 years or so of Pentecostal beliefs concerning the gifts of the Spirit and Baptist views on grace & sanctification. Basically what you have are people who think that they can operate in the gifts of the Spirit yet still be self motivated / carnally minded.

Biblically, the Spiritual gifts are an extension of the nature (presence) of the Holy Spirit at work in one's life. Scripture, Galatians 5:16 to be exact, clearly teaches that a person can not walk in the Spirit and walk in sin simultaneously. However, many Charismatic Churches, including mainline Pentecostal denominations such as AoG, CoG, & IPHC, have embraced Baptist views on sanctification, the idea that sanctification is a life long involuntary process. Because of this, unfortunately, many are attempting to operate in the Spirit while the flesh is still in control. The result of which are alleged "manifestations of the Spirit" that do not produce authentic spiritual reasults (ie. souls saved, bodies healed, mental & emotional bondage broken).

This could have been avoided if modern Pentecostalism, established in 1906, would have embraced Classical Pentecostal (Keswick) views on sanctification, est in 1885.

 

[Galatians2-20]

Modern "Charismatic" Churches are the result of the hybridization over the past 60 years or so of Pentecostal beliefs concerning the gifts of the Spirit and Baptist views on grace & sanctification. Basically what you have are people who think that they can operate in the gifts of the Spirit yet still be self motivated / carnally minded.

Biblically, the Spiritual gifts are an extension of the nature (presence) of the Holy Spirit at work in one's life. Scripture, Galatians 5:16 to be exact, clearly teaches that a person can not walk in the Spirit and walk in sin simultaneously. However, many Charismatic Churches, including mainline Pentecostal denominations such as AoG, CoG, & IPHC, have embraced Baptist views on sanctification, the idea that sanctification is a life long involuntary process. Because of this, unfortunately, many are attempting to operate in the Spirit while the flesh is still in control. The result of which are alleged "manifestations of the Spirit" that do not produce authentic spiritual reasults (ie. souls saved, bodies healed, mental & emotional bondage broken).

This could have been avoided if modern Pentecostalism, established in 1906, would have embraced Classical Pentecostal (Keswick) views on sanctification, est in 1885.

The hybridization began with the establishment of the AoG denomination and became more prevelent as the Word of Faith movement (Kenyon, Haggin, & company) migrated from the Baptist denomination to the Pentecostal denomination in the 1950s & 1960s.

 

[Galatians2-20]

They are the heart part.
Reformed are the head part.
The two need to get back together to form a middle ground...Spirit AND Word
(Was charismatic for about 10 years).

I completely agree. Actually, Classical Pentecostalism (commonly referred to now as Keswickianism) was birthed out of Reformed circles in England & Europe. Keswickianism is basically the Reformed Holiness movement of the later 1800s. Andrew Murray being the most influential out of that movement. If modern Pentecostals still held to the Keswick view of sanctification, you would not see most of the nonsense that comes of the Charismatic movement these days.

 

[oldthennew]

MARK 10:49.
And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him,
Be of good comfort, rise; He calleth thee.

PS.107:28-29-30-31.
Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, and He brings them out of their distresses.

He makes the storm a clam, so that the waves thereof are still.

Then they are glad because they be quiet, so He brings them unto their desired haven.

Oh that men would praise the Lord for His goodness, and for His wonderful works to the children of men.

1THESS.4:11-12.
........And that you study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands,
as we commanded you;

That you may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that you may have lack of nothing.


it is always a dead-give-a-way, if anyone or any group has to put-on a 'dog and pony show'.

 

[BarlyGurl]

I completely agree. Actually, Classical Pentecostalism (commonly referred to now as Keswickianism) was birthed out of Reformed circles in England & Europe. Keswickianism is basically the Reformed Holiness movement of the later 1800s. Andrew Murray being the most influential out of that movement. If modern Pentecostals still held to the Keswick view of sanctification, you would not see most of the nonsense that comes of the Charismatic movement these days.

I appreciate your contribution... but can barely understand it because of all the sectarian words... but I want to. If by chance there are others thinking the same thing... could you somehow SIMPLIFY while retaining the specifics????

 

[ember]

What are your thoughts on the Charismatic movement? The whole thing which can include lively worship, tongues, people being slain, laughing, crying, rolling about - you know the whole thing. My church is Charismatic but I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with some of the "goings on" there, it's not as bad as some but it seems to be becoming more Charismatic. I love the lively worship, I believe that worship should be spontaneous, heartfelt and enthusiastic and at times I do get emotional but it's more personal for me - I don't feel the need to let everyone know. Some of the other stuff that goes on at times I'm not so enthused about. I have spoken to like-minded people at the church and we all seem to feel that we aren't "spiritual" enough but then at other times I wonder if it's all real. I think it can be but for sure not always and not everyone is always being real.

Please I respectfully ask to respect the opinions of all and keep this thread on topic and civilised, thank you.

I thought that was over and everyone had matured and moved on?

 

[crossnote]

I completely agree. Actually, Classical Pentecostalism (commonly referred to now as Keswickianism) was birthed out of Reformed circles in England & Europe. Keswickianism is basically the Reformed Holiness movement of the later 1800s. Andrew Murray being the most influential out of that movement. If modern Pentecostals still held to the Keswick view of sanctification, you would not see most of the nonsense that comes of the Charismatic movement these days.

I just don't subscribe to the "surrender/let go let God" element of the Keswick movement. E.G. in Rom 6...

Romans 6:13 (KJV) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God...

The word 'yield' is poorly translated. The word actually means 'present' your members unto God, a military action word.

 

[oldthennew]

Cross,

let's clarify here, are you saying that we are not supposed to 'throw ourselves down and go into fits -
and gyrate uncontrollably - while MASTERING glossolalia ???

 

[Galatians2-20]

I just don't subscribe to the "surrender/let go let God" element of the Keswick movement. E.G. in Rom 6...

Romans 6:13 (KJV) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God...

The word 'yield' is poorly translated. The word actually means 'present' your members unto God, a military action word.

I can see where you are coming from and agree to a degree. I would imagine that rely heavily on one's views concerning Lordship.

 

[Willie-T]

I can see where you are coming from and agree to a degree. I would imagine that rely heavily on one's views concerning Lordship.

Oh, fun! He got ahold of some of Piper's teachings. LOL

 

[ember]

I can see where you are coming from and agree to a degree. I would imagine that rely heavily on one's views concerning Lordship.

How do you view Lordship? seems I've come across some equally streeange views on that...but do go ahead please if you don't mind..

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I thought that was over and everyone had matured and moved on?

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." (II Timothy 3:13)

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I thought a few years ago I had finally found the perfect church, a Non-denom full gospel congregation, and began attending there Wednesdays, but still teaching and sometimes preaching at our home church. A new pastor came, appealing to the college age people more than the last pastor who decided to move back to N. Carolina to remarry his ex-wife (a commendable thing to do!).

Services more and mnore centered around loud explosions of music, the pastor working his electric guitar, trying to sing songs the words of which I never recognized. The youth absolutely accepted all what was being touted as "worship". I quit going there, hearing less than a minute of doctrine, seeing too much flesh. Literally more and more anatomy appeared on stage behind thinned and thinner garments, both male and female performers.

Some of the older members came by my office asking what they should do. I advised them, the tithers supporting the ministry, to ask the pastor to prioritize 1 Timothy 4:12-16 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

The result of that meeting with their pastor was for him to say the Bible no longer has impact on today's youth. They want music, no doctrine, absolutely no bad news about sin and judgment. The people apparently want to be told they are forgiven regardless of their failures in life.

The building is no empty, for sale or lease. One couple came away from that "charismatic" church in terrible economic trouble, both of them out of jobs due to business closures. They went to a large mainline church. There they were told God is testing them. That yanked what little faith they had left right out of them. How could a loving God test them by making their 1990 Plymouth their home parked nightly wherever the police allowed it? They had a nice home, making a good living, then paradise was lost in 2013. Up till then they enjoyed sound doctrine, were active for the kingdom of God, had a charismatic church the town respected.

Don't keep riding a horse that keeps dying. When you see your church abandon 1 Tim 4, alert your pastor. If there's no improvement, move out, but don't hook up with a "cemetary church" full of the dead.

 

[Willie-T]

W-S, what do you mean, "a new Pastor came....."? Do you guys not hire your own Pastors?

 

[ember]

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." (II Timothy 3:13)

yeah...doesn't apply...I was being facetious

 

[JesusistheChrist]

yeah...doesn't apply...I was being facetious

Either way, it still applies. It wasn't aimed at you, but rather at the evil men and seducers. I would have hoped that they were no longer around myself, but the Bible paints a different picture. If anything, we should be expecting more and more of them as the day of Christ's return approaches.

 

[shotgunner]

I don't like labels because they mean something different to everyone.

 

[ember]

Either way, it still applies. It wasn't aimed at you, but rather at the evil men and seducers. I would have hoped that they were no longer around myself, but the Bible paints a different picture. If anything, we should be expecting more and more of them as the day of Christ's return approaches.

I know it wasn't aimed at me LOL!

I'm not sure who you do mean it for though...