Obsession with Confession (1 John 1:9, sin confession)

[Mitspa]

No I have answered it multiple times and you just can't accept the biblical supportive answers I gave.

You can not sin while walking in the Light if that was possible then you would be saying the Lord can deny Himself, because you would be saying the Holy Spirit can sin. The fruits of the Spirit that we are to walk by which is walking in the Light can and will not have one sin, only when you are drawn away back to darkness can you sin.

If you return to the Light by confessing your sins then it will be covered in the Light by the Lord's blood, that scripture is not saying a person sins in the Light.

Again you avoid the evident truth that sin is in the light and cleansed there... so your doctrine must be wrong...repent

 

[KennethC]

Actually we are not drawn away from the Light just by our Lusts. We are also drawn away when we take our eyes off of God.

Yes that is true but that would still be sin or darkness if our focus is on it instead of God.

 

[KennethC]

Of course they was part of the catholic falling away Kenneth the fact the RCC uses these writtings to establish their errors prove these writtings cannot be trusted and should be seen as the error that came in after Paul and the others departed. you want to rely on catholic documents ...that's on you. I reject any writing that upholds catholic error.

So then you are saying the writings of the first 3 centuries are part of the Catholic church even though the Catholic church was not even formed or heard of yet ???

That is complete nonsense as most of those such as Barnabas and Ignatius were taught under the Apostles Paul and John, so what they taught would be the same as Paul and John.

These are not Catholic documents as they were written before the Catholic church existed, just because the RCC may use these writings does not make them false.

And Paul was still around when Barnabas was teaching, and even the two of them taught side by side for awhile until they had a disagreement of what other Apostles to take along with them to spread the word. So they went their own ways with who they wanted but they still taught the same things.

 

[BenFTW]

Also in the O,T, it talks about confessing our sins.

Psalm 32:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I have not hidden. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,"And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah

There there are TWO verses for confessing our sins.

It's good that we are part of a new covenant then. I said people use one verse to make a doctrine of sin confession, they never use any other except the one that says to confess our sins to one another (which is to man, and not God, for the healing of our relationships). Thanks for showing that sin confession is OT though, I think that aids the point even clearer.

It says in 1 John 2, we have an Advocate (Jesus Christ) with the Father. John addresses the people he is speaking to as children in 1 John 2, but not in 1 John 1, interestingly enough. He also offers different solutions to the children who sin, saying we have an Advocate, where as in the first chapter he tells them to confess their sin. Notice they didn't believe they sinned, so basically in confessing their sins its an acknowledgement of their need for the Savior; that they are sinners in need of a savior.

 

[KennethC]

Again you avoid the evident truth that sin is in the light and cleansed there... so your doctrine must be wrong...repent

You have no argument from a biblical standpoint which is why you feel the need to repeat the same thing over and over again.
Which shows you clearly avoid what the Apostles John, James, Peter, and even Paul said and showed about walking in the Spirit vs. walking in the flesh.

You can not serve both flesh and the Spirit both !!!

 

[Mitspa]

So then you are saying the writings of the first 3 centuries are part of the Catholic church even though the Catholic church was not even formed or heard of yet ???

That is complete nonsense as most of those such as Barnabas and Ignatius were taught under the Apostles Paul and John, so what they taught would be the same as Paul and John.

These are not Catholic documents as they were written before the Catholic church existed, just because the RCC may use these writings does not make them false.

And Paul was still around when Barnabas was teaching, and even the two of them taught side by side for awhile until they had a disagreement of what other Apostles to take along with them to spread the word. So they went their own ways with who they wanted but they still taught the same things.

False doctrine and false apostles and writtings are what formed the catholic church, Kenneth ...just like the Nazis and their mindset was around before they came to power. The fact the RCC use these writtings to establish their own errors prove they cannot be trusted in terms of doctrine and truth of scripture. This is a very well understood principal in Protestant thought Kenneth.

 

[Mitspa]

You have no argument from a biblical standpoint which is why you feel the need to repeat the same thing over and over again.
Which shows you clearly avoid what the Apostles John, James, Peter, and even Paul said and showed about walking in the Spirit vs. walking in the flesh.

You can not serve both flesh and the Spirit both !!!

No Kenneth you do the same thing whenever anyone proves you wrong...you try to change the subject and avoid where you are clearly wrong.

 

[KennethC]

It's good that we are part of a new covenant then. I said people use one verse to make a doctrine of sin confession, they never use any other except the one that says to confess our sins to one another (which is to man, and not God, for the healing of our relationships). Thanks for showing that sin confession is OT though, I think that aids the point even clearer.

It says in 1 John 2, we have an Advocate (Jesus Christ) with the Father. John addresses the people he is speaking to as children in 1 John 2, but not in 1 John 1, interestingly enough. He also offers different solutions to the children who sin, saying we have an Advocate, where as in the first chapter he tells them to confess their sin. Notice they didn't believe they sinned, so basically in confessing their sins its an acknowledgement of their need for the Savior; that they are sinners in need of a savior.

That is not correct at all as in the 1st chapter John adds himself into the equation, and he is a child of God !!!

Verses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 all of them say, "WE", not you !!!

 

[KennethC]

No Kenneth you do the same thing whenever anyone proves you wrong...you try to change the subject and avoid where you are clearly wrong.

Nobody has proved me wrong though, maybe in their own mind they have, but not by the bible have they.

I have shown scriptures from all the Apostles in the bible that have to be taken into account with this passage from John, as once again we can not take a scripture and pull it out and make it stand alone.

 

[Mitspa]

Nobody has proved me wrong though, maybe in their own mind they have, but not by the bible have they.

I have shown scriptures from all the Apostles in the bible that have to be taken into account with this passage from John, as once again we can not take a scripture and pull it out and make it stand alone.

Ok then do you have sin in the flesh? if so...how can you walk in the light if sin cannot be in the light....how can sin be cleansed in the light, if sin cannot be in the light? Just answer these very simple questions

 

[KennethC]

False doctrine and false apostles and writtings are what formed the catholic church, Kenneth ...just like the Nazis and their mindset was around before they came to power. The fact the RCC use these writtings to establish their own errors prove they cannot be trusted in terms of doctrine and truth of scripture. This is a very well understood principal in Protestant thought Kenneth.

Barnabas and Ignatius were not false Apostles Mitspa !!!

I can not speak for if Ignatius was an Apostle or not but he was directly taught by Apostle John, and as for Barnabas he is clearly listed as an Apostle in the bible and showed that he and Apostle Paul worked side by side.

Early church history documents show that Barnabas like Timothy was one of many who understudied under Paul, as another one who understudied under Paul was the Apostle Luke which is where one of our gospel books comes from.

 

[KennethC]

Ok then do you have sin in the flesh? if so...how can you walk in the light if sin cannot be in the light....how can sin be cleansed in the light, if sin cannot be in the light? Just answer these very simple questions

Of course I have sin in the flesh when ever I stumble and are drawn away by my own desires and lusts, but I then confess that sin to be forgiven of it and have my fellowship in the Light restored. Sin is then cleansed when one returns to the Light and His blood covers it.

For we can not fellowship with Light and darkness at the same time !!!

 

[valiant]

Confession

Are all of our sins—past, present, and future—forgiven once and for all when we become Christians? Not according to the Bible or the early Church Fathers. Scripture nowhere states that our future sins are forgiven; instead, it teaches us to pray, "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors" (Matt. 6:12).

The means by which God forgives sins after baptism is confession: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). Minor or venial sins can be confessed directly to God, but for grave or mortal sins, which crush the spiritual life out of the soul, God has instituted a different means for obtaining forgiveness—the sacrament known popularly as confession, penance, or reconciliation.

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23).

Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins—but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it.
Over time, the forms in which the sacrament has been administered have changed. In the early Church, publicly known sins (such as apostasy) were often confessed openly in church, though private confession to a priest was always an option for privately committed sins. Still, confession was not just something done in silence to God alone, but something done "in church," as theDidache (A.D. 70) indicates.
Penances also tended to be performed before rather than after absolution, and they were much more strict than those of today (ten years’ penance for abortion, for example, was common in the early Church).
But the basics of the sacrament have always been there, as the following quotations reveal. Of special significance is their recognition that confession and absolution must be received by a sinner before receiving Holy Communion, for "[w]hoever . . . eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:27).

The Didache

"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).
"For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop" (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus

"[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses" (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness" (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus

"[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command" (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen

"[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, "To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity"’" (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him" (The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).
"Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (ibid., 28).
"inners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]" (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).
"And do not think, dearest brother, that either the courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent. . . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given" (ibid., 51[55]:20).
"But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]" (ibid., 51[55]:22).

Aphraahat the Persian Sage

"You [priests], then, who are disciples of our illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny a curative to those in need of healing. And if anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him the remedy of repentance. And he that is ashamed to make known his weakness, encourage him so that he will not hide it from you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not make it public, lest because of it the innocent might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and by those who hate us" (Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).

Basil the Great

"It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles" (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).

John Chrysostom

"Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven" (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

Ambrose of Milan

"For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only" (Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).

Jerome

"If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him" (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine

"When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance" (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]).

I hope you have noticed that none of the early church fathers before the heretic Origen spoke of confessing to a priest. All believers were priests, and confession to an order of priests was UNKNOWN.

Just another of the many heresies of the Roman Catholic church.

 

[slave]

Matt. 16:24: "Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple MUST DENY themselves and take up THEIR Cross and follow me." This is not referring to redoing Jesus' work in us on the cross. It is in understanding our relationship to SIN, and the work of His purposes. Sin still exists even tho God has freed it from our obligation. If once we could not avoid it, now we can and it has no power over us. But if we do sin then, we are not to see sin less powerful due to Gods fellowship. We are to view sin all the more vital in the way of it stealing from us what is rightfully mine now. God holds us now accountable directly for sin in us if it exists, because we had to call on it to be there. Thus, if we do not confess it, sin has not lost it's "Being" position, we have lost our "being" position in Christ.For the very definition of sin is not in way of the particulars of sin, but in way of it existing as a "Being" in and of itself.

To say sin is a thing, is naive and fool -hearted. And you are resting your belief on it's definition on the wake of your Salvation. You will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven with sins being in you-period, God's righteousness cannot bear it. But IF we confess His Son has taken it upon Himself and won it. Theres the gracious fellowship! Take up the responsibility of your yes to God, and don't shift it not a do's and don't argument...it has never been that! We need to understand Sin is still all it ever was, and God judgement on it has not been altered in the slightest. But sins rule in us has it has been crushed. Sin is a being not a thing, the particulars of sin are in evidence of the beings existence. Let not this be the condition to your Salvation! You want us to open our eyes. God is trying to do just that.....are we listening to God?

 

[Mitspa]

Of course I have sin in the flesh when ever I stumble and are drawn away by my own desires and lusts, but I then confess that sin to be forgiven of it and have my fellowship in the Light restored. Sin is then cleansed when one returns to the Light and His blood covers it.

For we can not fellowship with Light and darkness at the same time !!!

The light is not based on you its based On Christ...just like we are not justified by our own righteousness but by His. And your saying you have sin and yet you walk in the light...that contrary to everything you have tried to teach to others

 

[BenFTW]

That is not correct at all as in the 1st chapter John adds himself into the equation, and he is a child of God !!!

Verses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 all of them say, "WE", not you !!!

Okay Kenneth, we ought to not jump to conclusions. Notice that I am not jumping to conclusions but I said we. We is said in a sentence so as to lighten the blow, its as if we are being careful with our speech as to not offend. When you speak to non-believers telling them that if we confess that we are sinners, that we need Jesus, and that we believe in His death and resurrection, are you or are you not including yourself as having the need to do this currently but rather that was the means to receiving salvation?

"Guys, we need to calm down." I may not be excited and heated, but I include myself so there is no holier than though self righteous offense taken to those being reprimanded, if you will. "I think we should correct each other with meekness and respect." I said we, but I am not the one in error, but I still included myself, in the context of this hypothetical. You see, we can be used in such a way that does not mean that I am the one doing what is being spoken of. Its to be welcoming and inviting.

In searching for a definition, I found this - This is a rhetorical narrative voice which is used in nonfiction. It has the effect of creating a sense of level ground between the narrator and audience by creating an inclusive feeling. There is a separation between us and the subject matter, but we (narrator and audience) are both on the same side of it, approaching it together as equals.

They go on to define it in the form of cooking books. We then put the chicken in the oven... it could be then said of sin confession, that we then confess our sin therefore showing our need for the Savior Jesus Christ. So, John was not so much including himself in the process now, so much as showing the method by which we receive forgiveness. Acknowledge we are sinners in need of a Savior and then repent. Believe.

Also said: The first person plural we-voice is particularly suitable for presenting in front of an audience.

Is that sufficient for you?

 

[KennethC]

The light is not based on you its based On Christ...just like we are not justified by our own righteousness but by His. And your saying you have sin and yet you walk in the light...that contrary to everything you have tried to teach to others

I never said the Light was based on me, so I don't know where you come up with that ???

I said I fall out of fellowship in the Light when I sin, but that fellowship is restored when you confess that sin for forgiveness.

Also you are wrong there as well in the last part because I have always said this all along and have never taught differently, but I think you are confused because of the part that I instruct on from the bible when it speaks of what happens to those who do not repent and confess of those sins and have their fellowship restored but continue to give into that sin and let it control them again. James speaks clearly on this and says it will lead to eternal death and their soul will not be saved !!!

 

[Mitspa]

I never said the Light was based on me, so I don't know where you come up with that ???

I said I fall out of fellowship in the Light when I sin, but that fellowship is restored when you confess that sin for forgiveness.

Also you are wrong there as well in the last part because I have always said this all along and have never taught differently, but I think you are confused because of the part that I instruct on from the bible when it speaks of what happens to those who do not repent and confess of those sins and have their fellowship restored but continue to give into that sin and let it control them again. James speaks clearly on this and says it will lead to eternal death and their soul will not be saved !!!

Yes what your saying is the light is dependent upon you and your own ability to keep yourself there by your own righteousness and not based on the righteousness of faith...even tho you admit you have sin you claim that sin cannot be in the light and refuse to acknowledge that the scriptures clearly declares that sin is cleansed in the light.

 

[KennethC]

Okay Kenneth, we ought to not jump to conclusions. Notice that I am not jumping to conclusions but I said we. We is said in a sentence so as to lighten the blow, its as if we are being careful with our speech as to not offend. When you speak to non-believers telling them that if we confess that we are sinners, that we need Jesus, and that we believe in His death and resurrection, are you or are you not including yourself as having the need to do this currently but rather that was the means to receiving salvation?

"Guys, we need to calm down." I may not be excited and heated, but I include myself so there is no holier than though self righteous offense taken to those being reprimanded, if you will. "I think we should correct each other with meekness and respect." I said we, but I am not the one in error, but I still included myself, in the context of this hypothetical. You see, we can be used in such a way that does not mean that I am the one doing what is being spoken of. Its to be welcoming and inviting.

In searching for a definition, I found this - This is a rhetorical narrative voice which is used in nonfiction. It has the effect of creating a sense of level ground between the narrator and audience by creating an inclusive feeling. There is a separation between us and the subject matter, but we (narrator and audience) are both on the same side of it, approaching it together as equals.

They go on to define it in the form of cooking books. We then put the chicken in the oven... it could be then said of sin confession, that we then confess our sin therefore showing our need for the Savior Jesus Christ. So, John was not so much including himself in the process now, so much as showing the method by which we receive forgiveness. Acknowledge we are sinners in need of a Savior and then repent. Believe.

Also said: The first person plural we-voice is particularly suitable for presenting in front of an audience.

Is that sufficient for you?

That however is not what it is saying that John is only including himself to lighten the blow to unbelievers, as that would be interjecting what is not there in that passage.

1 John chapters 2-4 Apostle John is talking to believers in those passages and is telling us how we know that we are saved and have eternal life abiding in us. For there are many who claim they are believers in Christ and are born again but their actions and speech do not show it, and John says look here is how you will know that you are born again.

In a way you are right that he is speaking to unbelievers as well, but you must also include the deceptive ones in that passage as well who believe they are saved but do not walk accordingly.

This is what John is really clarifying here in this epistle, how to determine the false professing from those who have true profession in the faith in Christ !!!

 

[KennethC]

Yes what your saying is the light is dependent upon you and your own ability to keep yourself there by your own righteousness and not based on the righteousness of faith...even tho you admit you have sin you claim that sin cannot be in the light and refuse to acknowledge that the scriptures clearly declares that sin is cleansed in the light.

NO !!!

When you are doing as the Lord taught and commanded it is His righteousness you are doing, not your own !!!