Rich and Famous Pastors
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Matthew 23:13-15 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
People are finding Jesus, but not the one in the Bible. Their "inspiration" sends their "converts" in the wrong direction. They are not only false prophets & teachers, but criminals.
False teachers will receive judgement for teaching heresy, as well as sitting in the seat of the teacher.
James 3:1 (NASB) Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
James 3:1 (NRSV) Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
James 3:1 (NLT) Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.
People are finding Jesus, but not the one in the Bible. Their "inspiration" sends their "converts" in the wrong direction. They are not only false prophets & teachers, but criminals.
False teachers will receive judgement for teaching heresy, as well as sitting in the seat of the teacher.
James 3:1 (NASB) Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
James 3:1 (NRSV) Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
James 3:1 (NLT) Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.
I look at it this way. Not a soul in the world is forcing you to either attend their churches nor watch them on TV. YOU are choosing to do that.
Likewise, the people who DO attend their churches or watch them on TV are also not being forced to do so by anyone. They are also choosing to do that. They have the same God-given right to do that as you do.
And it is not like there are not hundreds, maybe thousands, of other choices out there. But they are choosing their own preference.
So, who are we to try to tell them that we know better what they are looking for than they do? And, in truth, at the point each individual is at, some of those teachings are exactly what they will respond to right now.
We seem to limit God as to what He can do in each person's life. Maybe some people need to be right where they are at this moment in their lives. We honestly have no idea, whatsoever.
Likewise, the people who DO attend their churches or watch them on TV are also not being forced to do so by anyone. They are also choosing to do that. They have the same God-given right to do that as you do.
And it is not like there are not hundreds, maybe thousands, of other choices out there. But they are choosing their own preference.
So, who are we to try to tell them that we know better what they are looking for than they do? And, in truth, at the point each individual is at, some of those teachings are exactly what they will respond to right now.
We seem to limit God as to what He can do in each person's life. Maybe some people need to be right where they are at this moment in their lives. We honestly have no idea, whatsoever.
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I know that Ecclesiastes 3:14 is clear...Whatsoever God doeth, it shall be FOREVER<------seems pretty clear and yes I understand the argument you make....but the argument you make is not applicable unto the LIFE found in Christ and or the PUNISHMENT afforded those who die as enemies of the cross (unbelievers).....IMO.....
I used the word eternal because of the clause (it shall be forever)
I used the word eternal because of the clause (it shall be forever)
I still hold that even if you choose to accept that this "Lake of Fire" will burn forever, that is not saying that someone subjected to it is consigned there "forever".
The word that Jesus kept using, over and over, "punishment", indicates there really is a purpose to being "punished." Why do we "punish" our own children? Do we keep on beating them (and maybe hire someone to continue to do it when we get tired) long after it is clear that they have understood their error?
I do believe the method and means of "punishment" will last forever. (The lake will keep on burning) But I cannot see anywhere in Scripture that God hates His own creation, that He said was good, so much that when any desire for sinning is "burned" out of that creation, He would just let it go on forever. Yes, for the stubbornly proud who will NEVER bow and desire to be with their Father.... that fire will keep right on burning for them. But that is as far as I can see His allowing it to go.
The word that Jesus kept using, over and over, "punishment", indicates there really is a purpose to being "punished." Why do we "punish" our own children? Do we keep on beating them (and maybe hire someone to continue to do it when we get tired) long after it is clear that they have understood their error?
I do believe the method and means of "punishment" will last forever. (The lake will keep on burning) But I cannot see anywhere in Scripture that God hates His own creation, that He said was good, so much that when any desire for sinning is "burned" out of that creation, He would just let it go on forever. Yes, for the stubbornly proud who will NEVER bow and desire to be with their Father.... that fire will keep right on burning for them. But that is as far as I can see His allowing it to go.
I agree when it comes to his children that the condemnation of the law has been removed and their punishment is in the form of Chastisement and even death (physical)...but those who die LOST, die an enemy of the cross and are not a child of God...there is no second chance after death...and even though you reject the story of Luke 16..the rich man while burning in hell refuses to acknowledge that the word of God is sufficient to keep one from ending up in hell/lake of fire....God said the memory of the wicked will be forgotten....it is not that difficult for a righteous loving God to punish an enemy eternally while removing the memory of the wicked at the same time....lost and forgotten....Not arguing with you, just I have no problem seeing the lake of fire as an eternal punishment for those who die lost and as an enemy of the cross...
It is one thing to focus on the goodness of God found in the comparison of wrongness,it is another to focus on the wrongness to allow favor for doing a wrong thing for rightness sake.
If there is the tiniest grudge in your mind against anyone, from that second, your Spiritual penetration into the knowledge of God stops. Watch Spiritual hardness, if you even think it possible to be there, haul up everything else till you get back your softness to the Spirit of God. We tend to start out with the right and wrong argument first, without going to the source first of it's answers. This can be misleading if we get the answer wrong.
God has demonstrated thru-out time that He is in absolute control in victory and He demonstrates it thru His grace, This is seen in the evidence of Jesus. That is to say, things that deserved a beating, He not only dismissed the beating, but did what only a God of complete victory could do, He offered sacrificial service and reward in it's wake of dismissal. Wow! Right??!! I still reel over that to this second. Now that is someone in charge! So what would Jesus say to you right now about this subject of others doing a bad example, possibly even sinning in the Church leadership?
Well, first what has He said to you? Have you prayed earnestly about it first? Or have you come to a thread first? Now, I assume no such judgment about that, simply a question. I see a list of organized concerns, are there a list of organized Scriptures in lew of the search for answers? Again, not a hidden judgement, simply a thought of reflexion. Well the Word tells us to follow Government as to how we should think. He says of the rulers of government that the rulers are of 'Worldly' rule.;not Divinely aligned. So when Scripture says to follow them, what He means is to follow the rules unless He states it violates Gods decrees in you. Then, never follow it even unto death. However, A very gracious placement indeed! He wants us not to serve them but serve Gods honor by submitting to their place of order. In way of the Church then there is another Scriptural principle: Involving the One of who rules the Church. It concludes that it is not our place but Gods direct place thru Christ that is head of the Church. He will police Himself. Has God Himself not allowed the minister among you to be in existence? He has! Along with the 'Worldly' leaders as well , Yet, if there is a problem that God also agrees with you on, He will be the enforcer to the Pastor He has ordained, not just allowed. He will do it with the leaders and deacons of the Church and with Himself directly, thru Spirit and supernatural involvement.. So we can rest assured that God has it under control.So pray about it that way! From victory not for it.
So if Jesus is our example, we need to pray for them not about them, as seen by His grace, and by way of His power. and authority.. We need to pray about ourselves in lew of what you see in them. And then ask God to simply work in it all. We need to be prone before Him waiting His answer to be given His way in His timing, resting in ourselves over it in peace.. Scripture says, a worker is due his service. Are we worried of the amount he is due? If so, why? For the example to others, by way of selfish greed? Or Because you work harder and don't see the bounty? Because you need to do the battling for God in way of His principles, for He has ordained you to fight His battles? Or has He said to allow Him to fight His battles thru you in pray and teaching? You must ask yourself, Has peace been lost over this? Is there a need to respond in a speedy way, with flaming arrows? Is there a self- righteous pointing Vs. a gracious understanding of truth?
Be simply honest with God over this. Let not Satan take you to the side and beat you over the brow with it. If you are moved by God, move into God to know what to do, He will give you peace not stress over it, this we know to be true from His Word, And experience if you are born again. Look to see if you are searching for the answer vs. looking for more heated questions, who is stirring the pot? God in you coming out, or something outside of you stirring itself in? In either case stop and surrender it to God. Leave the stress of it at His feet. Let go of the thought you must secure the dam, you do not, you can not.! Simply live correctly yourself, and He'll take care of the rest. But do Pray that He does just that, don't underestimate the power in that! the Holy Spirit will have your back on that request, and submit His own request moving God to act on the principles that first moved you.
The issue is on standing not having to ever leave the security of the victory already found in Jesus Christ.
If there is the tiniest grudge in your mind against anyone, from that second, your Spiritual penetration into the knowledge of God stops. Watch Spiritual hardness, if you even think it possible to be there, haul up everything else till you get back your softness to the Spirit of God. We tend to start out with the right and wrong argument first, without going to the source first of it's answers. This can be misleading if we get the answer wrong.
God has demonstrated thru-out time that He is in absolute control in victory and He demonstrates it thru His grace, This is seen in the evidence of Jesus. That is to say, things that deserved a beating, He not only dismissed the beating, but did what only a God of complete victory could do, He offered sacrificial service and reward in it's wake of dismissal. Wow! Right??!! I still reel over that to this second. Now that is someone in charge! So what would Jesus say to you right now about this subject of others doing a bad example, possibly even sinning in the Church leadership?
Well, first what has He said to you? Have you prayed earnestly about it first? Or have you come to a thread first? Now, I assume no such judgment about that, simply a question. I see a list of organized concerns, are there a list of organized Scriptures in lew of the search for answers? Again, not a hidden judgement, simply a thought of reflexion. Well the Word tells us to follow Government as to how we should think. He says of the rulers of government that the rulers are of 'Worldly' rule.;not Divinely aligned. So when Scripture says to follow them, what He means is to follow the rules unless He states it violates Gods decrees in you. Then, never follow it even unto death. However, A very gracious placement indeed! He wants us not to serve them but serve Gods honor by submitting to their place of order. In way of the Church then there is another Scriptural principle: Involving the One of who rules the Church. It concludes that it is not our place but Gods direct place thru Christ that is head of the Church. He will police Himself. Has God Himself not allowed the minister among you to be in existence? He has! Along with the 'Worldly' leaders as well , Yet, if there is a problem that God also agrees with you on, He will be the enforcer to the Pastor He has ordained, not just allowed. He will do it with the leaders and deacons of the Church and with Himself directly, thru Spirit and supernatural involvement.. So we can rest assured that God has it under control.So pray about it that way! From victory not for it.
So if Jesus is our example, we need to pray for them not about them, as seen by His grace, and by way of His power. and authority.. We need to pray about ourselves in lew of what you see in them. And then ask God to simply work in it all. We need to be prone before Him waiting His answer to be given His way in His timing, resting in ourselves over it in peace.. Scripture says, a worker is due his service. Are we worried of the amount he is due? If so, why? For the example to others, by way of selfish greed? Or Because you work harder and don't see the bounty? Because you need to do the battling for God in way of His principles, for He has ordained you to fight His battles? Or has He said to allow Him to fight His battles thru you in pray and teaching? You must ask yourself, Has peace been lost over this? Is there a need to respond in a speedy way, with flaming arrows? Is there a self- righteous pointing Vs. a gracious understanding of truth?
Be simply honest with God over this. Let not Satan take you to the side and beat you over the brow with it. If you are moved by God, move into God to know what to do, He will give you peace not stress over it, this we know to be true from His Word, And experience if you are born again. Look to see if you are searching for the answer vs. looking for more heated questions, who is stirring the pot? God in you coming out, or something outside of you stirring itself in? In either case stop and surrender it to God. Leave the stress of it at His feet. Let go of the thought you must secure the dam, you do not, you can not.! Simply live correctly yourself, and He'll take care of the rest. But do Pray that He does just that, don't underestimate the power in that! the Holy Spirit will have your back on that request, and submit His own request moving God to act on the principles that first moved you.
The issue is on standing not having to ever leave the security of the victory already found in Jesus Christ.
Galatians 6:1-2 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. [SUP]2[/SUP]Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
There's a scripture to follow, & I choose to follow it. I refuse to limit the other person to remain in their sins.
Don't get me wrong, Willie-T. I listened to these Pastors. I chose to listen to their preachings. I am from Australia and we have these Pastors speak at Hillsong Conference all the time. As I said I saw people repented and I bear witness seeing people accepted Jesus after these Pastors preached.
The issue here is the extravagant lifestyle of these rich and famous Pastors. I feel they have opened themselves to the world of flesh. The very reason I raised what Jesus said, that it is easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the gates of heaven. To be in the world of flesh, the pressure will be on to them to maintain that kind of lifestyle thus some of them are becoming Motivational speakers rather than Deliverer of the Word of God.
And finally, I stand firm with this, "In the present economic state of the world, one can not be a preacher of God, Love and Compassion and remain filthy rich".
Since this man is the lead in going after all these grace preachers, I just bothered to check him out.
Check out THIS guy's financial worth......
John Macarthur's Church Salary
Check out THIS guy's financial worth......
John Macarthur's Church Salary
Yeah, most of the Joyce Meyer bashing articles are by dubious sources as well. I did find this on Wikipedia, though...
Joyce Meyer Ministries was one of six investigated by the United States Senate inquiry into the tax-exempt status of religious organizations[SUP][19][/SUP][SUP][20][/SUP][SUP][21][/SUP] by Senator Chuck Grassley. . .Joyce Meyer Ministries was one of two ministries to comply with the Senate's requests for financial records.. . .
Neither party were found to have done any wrongdoing.[SUP][22][/SUP]
ECFA accreditation
In 2009, Joyce Meyer Ministries received accreditation from the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA). In an announcement on March 12, 2009, the ECFA said that Joyce Meyer Ministries and Oral Roberts University had met their requirements of "'responsible stewardship', which involves ministries' financial accountability, transparency, board governance and fund-raising practices."[SUP][23]
[/SUP]
Joyce Meyer Ministries was one of six investigated by the United States Senate inquiry into the tax-exempt status of religious organizations[SUP][19][/SUP][SUP][20][/SUP][SUP][21][/SUP] by Senator Chuck Grassley. . .Joyce Meyer Ministries was one of two ministries to comply with the Senate's requests for financial records.. . .
Neither party were found to have done any wrongdoing.[SUP][22][/SUP]
ECFA accreditation
In 2009, Joyce Meyer Ministries received accreditation from the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA). In an announcement on March 12, 2009, the ECFA said that Joyce Meyer Ministries and Oral Roberts University had met their requirements of "'responsible stewardship', which involves ministries' financial accountability, transparency, board governance and fund-raising practices."[SUP][23]
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