Is Jesus Christ YHWH God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob??

imoss · Jan 28, 2010

this is not from me but taken from Christiananswers.net Please know that I would never consider a Jehovah my brother in Christ, for they are not in Christ. At risk of yet another hit to my rep, educate yourself if you are not a JW & If you are... repent and let the blood of the Lamb our Father wash you clean and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Blessings to all on here including those deceived by the Jehovahs witness cult. Believe me when I tell you there are those very close to me who belong to this Church and it has only caused division within the family because they are not allowed at family functions which occur at Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Birthdays...and are in fact urged to not have relationships outside of the Church. Please do not hit my reputation for I do not prejudge the individuals sucked into this cult but rather the watchtower society the new world translation of the Bible and the DECEPTION and breakdown of the family unit that it promotes. I love my Aunt who is alone (left my uncle 6 months into her church membership) and away although she lives 50k from me and professes to love me very much. Its a sad state. They definitely discourage her from having a relationship with one grounded in Christ. I can however go to church with her if I choose. I choose to continue mourning the loss of my dear beautiful auntie & praying she will somehow encounter someone in her door to door missions that will lead her to the truth.

Quoted from Chrisitananswers.net
…LET US INVESTIGATE THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.

JW’s believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”.

Does the Bible confirm their beliefs, or does it teach the orthodox Christian concept that Christ is God? This is an extremely important question. Consider the following points:

The Christ of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

Isaiah wrote about seeing Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10.
In John 12:31-42, we are told that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke of Him
In Exodus 34:14 we are to worship no one but Jehovah.
In Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ.
In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last (confirmed in Revelation 1:8),
but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is the first and the last.

These verses demonstrate that the name “Jehovah” is used for both God the Father and of God the Son. Although they are distinct persons they are each called “Jehovah” because they each possess deity.

The deity of Christ is taught in Scripture.
In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called “Immanuel,” which means “God with us.”
When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.
Attributes of Christ show that He is God
Jesus Christ knows all things (John 1:48; 2:25; 6:64; 14:30; 21:17). He is all-powerful (Matt. 28:18; Heb. 1:3), sinless (John 8:46), eternal (Mic. 5:2), and unchanging (Heb. 13:8). Since only God possesses these attributes, Christ must be God.
Certain works of Christ show that He is God.
Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7; Eph. 1:7), give eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2), judge the world (John 5:22, 27), and control nature (Matt. 8:26). Since only God can do these things, Christ must be God.
Christ received worship as God.
Jesus is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt. 14:33), and yet only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone (Matt. 4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Jesus in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael, how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev. 19:10)? If Christ were not God, then worshipping Him would be idolatrous.
Jesus Christ is called “the mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6.
JW’s have a ready answer for this verse. They explain that Christ is “the mighty god.” but not “the almighty.” They say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never the mighty. However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty One. Therefore, since Christ is the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer. 32:18), they are both God. They both possess full deity.
Christ is God, the Creator of all things according to Colossians 1:15-17.
JW’s refer to this passage to support their teaching that Christ was created by Jehovah (for example, Let God Be True, p.35). This is based primarily on the words, “the firstborn of all creation,” in verse 15. However, if this verse was teaching that Jesus Christ is the first created being made by God, the word “first-created” would have been used of Christ, not the word “firstborn.” These are two different words in the Greek, with two different meanings. “First-created” is protoktistos, and “firstborn” is prototokos. Colossians 1:15 does not use the protoktistos, “first-created.” Instead it uses prototokos, which means an heir, a begotten one, the first in rank. The teaching of Colossians 1:15 is that Christ is first in rank above all creation; He is the Heir of all things. He is prior to all creation and superior over it.
The JW’s New World Translation adds the word “other” four times in Colossians 1:15-17, so that the passage states that Christ created “all other things,” everything except Himself. However, there is no basis for adding “other.” It certainly does not occur in the Greek manuscripts. The translators of the New World Translation admit this by putting “other” in brackets. This “translation” attempts to comply with the assumption that firstborn means first-created. But, as shown, this is not the meaning of firstborn, and therefore it is also wrong to add the word “other.” There is no verse in the entire Bible that states that Christ was created by Jehovah!
Christ claimed to be equal with God in John 10:30.
JW’s believe that this verse, “I and the Father are one,” means that Christ was one with God the Father in purpose and not in nature and essence. However, if that was all Christ was saying, why did the Jews want to stone Him? They themselves thought His purpose was the same as God’s. Verse 33 of John 10 explains that they wanted to stone Him because of blasphemy, because He claimed to be God!

The deity of Christ is the central point of the Scriptures. It clearly teaches that Christ is God. The teachings of the Jehovah’s Witness' concerning Jesus Christ clearly contradict the teachings of the Bible. Passages such as Philippians 2:5-11 tell us that Jesus Christ, who existed as God, took the bodily form of a humble servant so that He could die on the cross in our place. “Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios), to the glory of God the Father.”
End Quote from christiananswers.net

Cup-of-Ruin · Jan 28, 2010

Balshemtov said:

"He that hath believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself; he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given us (Christians) eternal life, and this life IS IN HIS SON. He that hath the Son hath life; and HE THAT HATH NOT THE SON OF GOD HATH NOT LIFE." 1 John 5:10-12

He that denieth the Son hath not the Son or the Father, he is the anti-christ, which makes jews and muslims as deniers of the Son - antichrists, who have neither the Son or the Father.

Jews and muslims do not believe in the same God as Christians neither do they have eternal life or truth.

sword · Jan 28, 2010

Cup-of-Ruin said:

"He that hath believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself; he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given us (Christians) eternal life, and this life IS IN HIS SON. He that hath the Son hath life; and HE THAT HATH NOT THE SON OF GOD HATH NOT LIFE." 1 John 5:10-12

He that denieth the Son hath not the Son or the Father, he is the anti-christ, which makes jews and muslims as deniers of the Son - antichrists, who have neither the Son or the Father.

Jews and muslims do not believe in the same God as Christians neither do they have eternal life or truth.

I would say jews believe in the same God but most of them aren`t His children yet.

Cup-of-Ruin · Jan 28, 2010

sword said:

Jews follow the Talmud the Talmud says.

Jesus is illigitimate and concieved during menustration. Kallah, 1b. (18b)
Jesus referred to as the son of Pandira, Roman soldier. Schabbadth XIV
Jesus named as a "fool" and no one should pay attention to a fool. Schabbadth, 104b.
Jesus dies like beast, buried in animals dirt heap. Zohar III, 282.

Muslims follow the Koran, Koran says;

Jesus has no pre-existence. Koran. Suah 3:59.
Jesus not the Son of God assertion is an 'abomination'. Koran, Surah 19:18-95
Jesus did not die neither was he ressurrected. Koran, Surah 4:157.

What happens to those who blaspheme the Holy Name of Christ? what happens to those who deny Him, what happens to those who will not let Him reign? Is there forgiveness of sin outside of Christ? Can you worship God without the worship of His Son, Is there another covenant other that the New Covenant by which you can be saved?

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. For no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME! If you had known Me, ye should bhave known the Father also; AND FROM HENCE FORTH YE KNOW HIM (The Son) and have seen Him (God)." John 14:6-7

imoss · Jan 28, 2010

great post cup!

lil-rush · Jan 28, 2010

Cup-of-Ruin said:

Jews follow the Talmud the Talmud says.

Jesus is illigitimate and concieved during menustration. Kallah, 1b. (18b)
Jesus referred to as the son of Pandira, Roman soldier. Schabbadth XIV
Jesus named as a "fool" and no one should pay attention to a fool. Schabbadth, 104b.
Jesus dies like beast, buried in animals dirt heap. Zohar III, 282.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/722.htm

Cup-of-Ruin · Jan 28, 2010

lil-rush said:

My reference is; Reverend. I.B Pranaitis, Master of Theolgy and Professor of the Hebrew Langauge at the Imperial Ecclesiastical Academy of the Roman Catholic Church in Old St Petersburg, Russia. The translations of the passages were translated by the Imperial Academy of Sciences in st. Petersburg in 1893 with the Imprimatur of the Archbishop.

This work "The Talmud Unmasked, The Secret Rabbinical Teachings Concerning Christians" can be found in English form in the Library of Congress and the New York Public Library. The 63 books of the Talmud are "The legal code which forms the basis of Jewish religious law" and is the textbook which is used "in the training of Rabbi's". To say that the Talmud is anti-Christian would be an understatement.

I am sure there is information to the contrary, people will have to make up their own minds as the Spirit testifies.

Father B Pranaitis was "liquidated" by the Cheka during the Bolshevist revolution in Russia along with 20 million other Christians.

miktre · Jan 28, 2010

The newer versions of the Babylonian Talmud edited a lot of these things out. It still testifies to how evil the book is though.

Cup-of-Ruin · Jan 29, 2010

miktre said:

Yes, you can tone it down in the translation or just edit it, so we have to consider our sources carefully, and the source I quote has a very high authority, coming from perhaps the greatest Hebrew scholar and Talmud expert of modern history who died a martyr for his faith, we also must consider that by the same Talmudic law a jew is not required to tell a non-jew the truth, even so there are many Jews who freely admit to the facts and those sources can be quoted as well. It would be naive at best to believe that the Talmud was not hostile to Christianity in the same way the Koran, we would be niave, quite simply to believe that Jews and Muslims are worshipping the same God as Christians because by their very reilgious books they deny our God, and this is of their own will, no one is forcing them, they can simply make up their own mind, as we have ours, it is just incorrect to say that we all share the same faith in the same God, that is just not true.

I think Christians these days should read the Koran and Babylonian Talmud to get a feel and understanding for these works, maybe they might like them, I don't know, but see if they are written by the same God, compare, maybe some will think they are indeed all holy books worshipping the same God, I know that is what the New Age is claiming.

VW · Jan 29, 2010

I think Christians these days should read the Koran and Babylonian Talmud to get a feel and understanding for these works, maybe they might like them, I don't know, but see if they are written by the same God, compare, maybe some will think they are indeed all holy books worshipping the same God, I know that is what the New Age is claiming.[/quote]

Yuk. I tried to read the Koran, and some of the books from the Hindu religion. A totally different spirit wrote those works. I am now reading the books of Enoch, and I am not sure about them. They have a strange history though. I love to read, but the Koran was really a dark book.

Sorry for butting in.

Cup-of-Ruin · Jan 29, 2010

VW said:

I agree a totally different spirit wrote those books.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that confesseth not that jesus Christ came in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of the anti-christ." 1 John 4:1-3

VW · Jan 29, 2010

Cup-of-Ruin said:

Let me relate an experience I had before I knew the Lord. I had read a book, (I won't say which one,) and in the book the main character used a mantra for relaxation and well being. The author actually wrote the mantra out. So I thought, (stupid young man,) that I would try it and see if it would give me peace and well being. So, when I was alone in my house, I laid down on my bed and started to chant the mantra. After a time, I know not how long, the mantra changed, to "Don't think, don't think." And after a little while, again I don't know how long, there were no words, and suddenly everything got very dark in my minds eye. I was falling down a hole, very fast, and I could see the top of the hole, the only light, and that light was getting smaller and smaller, very quickly. And I knew, in the deepest part of my being, that if that light at the top of the hole disappeared, then I would never wake up. I knew! And that light became just a little point, almost gone, when a voice, very loud, very strong, said "STOP!" This voice shook everything, and instantly, I was sitting up in my bed, shaking and covered in sweat. And I knew that I had almost reached the bottom, and that I had almost died, and that the voice was the Lord, saving me. I tell everyone who thinks that other religions are baseless that they need to be careful. The spirits are alive and well, and they are ready to kill and steal and destroy, us.

imoss · Jan 29, 2010

VW said:

, when a voice, very loud, very strong, said "STOP!" This voice shook everything, and instantly, I was sitting up in my bed, shaking and covered in sweat. And I knew that I had almost reached the bottom, and that I had almost died, and that the voice was the Lord, saving me. I tell everyone who thinks that other religions are baseless that they need to be careful. The spirits are alive and well, and they are ready to kill and steal and destroy, us.

I got validation as I read this. Praise the Lord!

paulnsilas · Jan 31, 2010

the Name is YHVH....no W in Hebrew
yes, He is Jesus.

paulnsilas · Jan 31, 2010

Greybeard, no offense intended, since you didn't know. but just wondering why you chose the occult hexagram for your avatar? it's the star of the idolators' god remphan. it has it's origin in Mystery Babylon the Great. surely no Christian believes that symbol is the so-called "star of david?" the synagogue of satan is identified by that symbol.

Acts 7:43
Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

charisenexcelcis · Jan 31, 2010

paulnsilas said:

The principle "star" used by occultists is the pentagram. For almost any shape that you make you can find an occultish usage. Much of the modern occult usage of the hexagram stems from the anti-Jewish propaganda of the medeival and rennaisance periods.

paulnsilas · Jan 31, 2010

i see....
i had done a little research years back and thought everyone pretty much agreed on what the hexagram is.
oh well. to each his own.... i guess? but what about ephesians 5:8-11?

[SIZE=+1](The Hexagram) is the most powerful of all the signs, to the occult, it consists of 6 sides, 6 points and 6 smaller triangles, thus 666. A HEXAGRAM! The book "Web of Darkness" says the hexagram is: . . . the most powerful and evil sign in satanism and of all the occult world. The hexagram is used mainly in witchcraft to summon demons from the world. The word "hex" which means to place a curse on someone, originated from this sign."[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Sean Sellars, former Satanist and author of "Web of Darkness"[/SIZE]

"The hexagram, like the pentagram, was and is used in practices of the occult and is attributed to the 7 'old' planets outlined in astrology.
The six-pointed star is commonly used both as a talisman and for conjuring spirits in the practice of witchcraft. In the Book The History and Practice of Magic, Vol. 2, the six-pointed star is called the talisman of Saturn and it is also referred to as the Seal of Solomon.[4] Details are given in this book on how to make these symbols and the materials to use." wikipedia

"HEXAGRAM or SIX-POINTED STAR: When surrounded by a circle, it represents the "divine mind" (a counterfeit of God's wisdom) to numerous occult groups through the centuries. Many still use it in occult rituals. But to Jewish people, it is their Star of David." symbols and their meaning

"In the 17th century, it became a popular practice to put Magen Davids on the outside of Jewish synagogues to identify them as Jewish houses of worship in much the same way that a cross identified a Christian house of worship.
The so-called “Star of David” gained popularity as a symbol of Judaism when it was adopted as the emblem of the Zionist movement in 1897, but the symbol continued to be very controversial for many years. When the modern state of Israel was founded in 1948, there was much debate over whether this symbol should be used on the flag.
Today, of course, the “Star of David” is a universally recognized symbol of Jewry. It appears on the flag of the state of Israel. Its real origins, however, are not so pure."

The Hexagram

The so-called “Star of David” is essentially a “hexagram,” nothing more, nothing less. There is no Biblical or Jewish evidence that traces this ancient occult symbol with king David of Israel. However, there is evidence that it was used by king Solomon, after he turned to pagan gods and the occult, late in his life, causing God to become very angry with him .

A Masonic book called The Second Mile, an Eastern Star book, reveals that the “six pointed star is a very ancient symbol, and one of the most powerful.” The hexagram is used in magic, witchcraft, sorcery and occultism and the casting of zodiacal horoscopes by astrologers. “It was considered to posses mysterious powers,” says A Concise Cyclopedia of Freemasonry.

“To the sorcerer, the hexagram is a powerful tool to invoke Satan.” In fact, the word “hex” -- as to put a “hex” or “curse” on people -- comes from this word." Bill Schnoebelen, former Satanist

"The first mention of the star was in Amos 5:26 regarding the trek from Egypt to Canaan. Then in 922 B.C., when Solomon married the daughter of Pharoah and went into magic and witchcraft and built an altar to Ashtoroth and Moloch. The book traces the six pointed star from Egypt to Solomon, to Arab Magic and Witchcraft, to Druid use(references are documented). The book traces the star through Freemasonry usage to Mayer Amschel Bauer, who, in the 17th century, changed his name to depict the red six-pointed star (or shield) which he had hung on his door in Germany, and thus began the family of "Red Shield" or Rothschild. The research carried on through this family, to their court of arms, to Cabala, to Astrology, to Hitler and his putting a yellow six-pointed star on all Jews during the holocaust, to the Zionist symbol, and finally to the flag of the State of Israel and beyond...."
from
The Six Pointed Star
By, Dr. O.J. Graham
http://freemasonrywatch.org/sixpointedstar.html

charisenexcelcis · Jan 31, 2010

The pentagram is prefered because of the goatshead. The word "hex" came out of the same time period when popular opinion was that all Jews were devil worshippers. Modern occultists have been taken in by this, including the freemasons.
When I first was free of the occult, I was constantly in fear of accidentally falling back through some small mischance. The man who discipled me told me that living in fear was only giving glory to Satan. He was right. I do not engage in any covert occultism (reading horoscopes or consulting occultists, etc.) but I do not live in fear of numbers or symbols or such things as one might run into because "greater is He that is in me".

paulnsilas · Jan 31, 2010

umm...ok...

you said:
"The word "hex" came out of the same time period when popular opinion was that all Jews were devil worshippers. Modern occultists have been taken in by this, including the freemasons.

but....."hex" is a GREEK word. it means SIX.
did you mean to say that the Greek period was the "time period when popular opinion was that all Jews were devil worshippers"? and if so, why would the greeks attach a symbol of 6 as a curse against the jews?

paulnsilas · Jan 31, 2010

i occassionally think about living in fear of God, who finds occultism in all its forms abominable. numerology, pentagrams, hexagrams: He doesn't seem to like any of it. they kinda burned their magic arts books in Acts if i recall....better safe than sorry i guess

jes sayin'

Is Jesus Christ YHWH God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob??

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