The Absolutism of Verb Tense

[dcontroversal]

You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
(Eph 1:13)

is a good example where 'believed' is an active aorist participle and 'sealed' is a passive aorist participle.
There are no verses pointing to God 'unsealing' us.

Amen to that and I will add...Those who ignorantly state that we can be (unsealed) reject Ecclesiastes 3:14 which states, That WHATSOEVER God does, IT SHALL BE FOREVER.....If you have been sealed by God IT IS FOREVER and CANNOT be UNDONE by something that we do or say!...it is foolish to say it can be undone and reeks of ignorance!

 

[posthuman]

Who said that "earnest money" cannot be returned to the buyer? You? Again, reality says otherwise.

is your position that the Most High is prone to failing to keep His covenants?

because who paid the earnest? the LORD. not you.
so upon who is it incumbent to complete the transaction? the LORD. not you.

what God has called clean, let no man call unclean.

 

[dcontroversal]

As "prophesied", the scriptural gymnastics have begun. The Hebrews passage, contextually, has absolutely nothing to do with returning to Judaism as wattie alleged. Instead, it has everything to do with Hebrew Christians being warned not to commit the same types of sins which their forefathers committed after God had delivered them from bondage. You know, sins like idolatry, murmuring, fornication, tempting Christ, etc., etc. Furthermore, spare me the nonsense of how the consequence of doing the same was merely having God turn His face from them. Again, contextually, the consequence was having God swear in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest.

Who said that a seal cannot be broken? You? Reality says otherwise. And what are we sealed with? The earnest of the Spirit. "Earnest" is a real estate term which speaks of the initial downpayment from somebody who "earnestly" expects to complete the purchase in the future. Who said that "earnest money" cannot be returned to the buyer? You? Again, reality says otherwise. In fact, I've personally had "earnest money" returned to me IN FULL twice in just the last five years.

Earnest money is not the HOLY SPIRIT.....Argue the words WHATSOEVER GOD does, IT SHALL BE FOREVER.......Maybe your god is too weak to keep you sealed....I don't know, but My GOD states that what he does it lasts forever....!

 

[posthuman]

......Maybe your god is too weak to keep you sealed....I don't know, but My GOD states that what he does it lasts forever....!

Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy endureth forever!
(Psalm 118:4)
​

His mercies endure forever!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy endureth forever!
(Psalm 118:4)
​

His mercies endure forever!!

Not only does it last forever, but it is renewed daily as well.....!

 

[Gr8grace]

Which, of course, is supported by verses such as these:

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Colossians 1:21-23)

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)

Let the Greek and scriptural gymnastics begin...

to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Colossians 1:21-23)

Some believers will not be presented as Holy,unblameable,and with out reproof.

They may experience shame and a limited reward at the Bema seat........saved, yet so as through fire. "loser" believers. Believers who think they need to work to maintain salvation will most likely experience SHAME at the Bema seat, they relied on their own righteousness......they believed they could lose salvation.



"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)

These Believers don't enter His rest in this lifetime. Just like the Hebrews wandering in the desert. They were believers, but they didn't take hold of the promises and didn't experience rest in their lifetime.

Again we can relate the loss of salvation crowd to these verses. They don't lay hold of their confidence and assurance, thus they don't experience rest or the promised land during their lifetime(TODAY)

 

[crossnote]

As "prophesied", the scriptural gymnastics have begun. The Hebrews passage, contextually, has absolutely nothing to do with returning to Judaism as wattie alleged. Instead, it has everything to do with Hebrew Christians being warned not to commit the same types of sins which their forefathers committed after God had delivered them from bondage. You know, sins like idolatry, murmuring, fornication, tempting Christ, etc., etc. Furthermore, spare me the nonsense of how the consequence of doing the same was merely having God turn His face from them. Again, contextually, the consequence was having God swear in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest.

Who said that a seal cannot be broken? You? Reality says otherwise. And what are we sealed with? The earnest of the Spirit. "Earnest" is a real estate term which speaks of the initial downpayment from somebody who "earnestly" expects to complete the purchase in the future. Who said that "earnest money" cannot be returned to the buyer? You? Again, reality says otherwise. In fact, I've personally had "earnest money" returned to me IN FULL twice in just the last five years.

So God either renegs on His Promises OR we are given conditional promises contingent on our works?
Which is it, without mental gymnastics please.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

This prompts a thought: ever wonder why God chose Hebrew and Koine Greek? I suspect this thread is on the right track. English can be precise, but it can also be confusing with all its double meanings and exceptions. Thanks for this!

That, as well as the fact both languages are "dead" -- Hebrew was largely out of use for about 2,400 years and therefore did not change, and could be examined in linguistic and historical context to know what it said.

Koine Greek was the language of commerce throughout the known first-century world and made the transmission of the Gospel rapid and certain. But it died out of usage within 60 years of the completion of the New Testament. it was "frozen in time" by it's inactivity, and did not change. Therefore, knowing what it says from a 2,000 year perspective is not difficult at all.

God's provision is amazing.

Only thing is 'hath/has' is in the present tense but so is 'believeth/believes' is also in the present tense, so the argument is..
"It doesn't say whoever 'believed' but 'believes', therefore you must continually believe in order to have eternal life"

So sometimes we must go elsewhere in addition to verb tenses or one verse to make our case.

Interesting thing is, the subject of belief is "Him" -- Jesus Christ. And while "believes" in the English is present tense, it is in the aorist tense of the Koine Greek. That is a belief in a singular event that has ongoing consequences -- Christ died, and belief in the sufficiency of His death always will result in salvation which is always sufficient, forevermore, regardless of when that belief takes root. Pretty amazing, huh?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

As "prophesied", the scriptural gymnastics have begun. The Hebrews passage, contextually, has absolutely nothing to do with returning to Judaism as wattie alleged. Instead, it has everything to do with Hebrew Christians being warned not to commit the same types of sins which their forefathers committed after God had delivered them from bondage. You know, sins like idolatry, murmuring, fornication, tempting Christ, etc., etc. Furthermore, spare me the nonsense of how the consequence of doing the same was merely having God turn His face from them. Again, contextually, the consequence was having God swear in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest.

Who said that a seal cannot be broken? You? Reality says otherwise. And what are we sealed with? The earnest of the Spirit. "Earnest" is a real estate term which speaks of the initial downpayment from somebody who "earnestly" expects to complete the purchase in the future. Who said that "earnest money" cannot be returned to the buyer? You? Again, reality says otherwise. In fact, I've personally had "earnest money" returned to me IN FULL twice in just the last five years.

You are correct . . . earnest is the initial down payment from "somebody" who "earnestly" expects to complete the purchase in the future. Who said that "earnest money" cannot be returned to the buyer? In this case it is not MAN who has put down the earnest money but God put down the earnest money as a guarantee . . . I think that we can rely on God - that "earnest money" HIS earnest money was the death and resurrection of His Son wherein He sent the promised Holy Spirit - which is our deposit guaranteeing our inheritance and is held until the day we are redeemed when Christ returns to gather those that are his. MAN can fail and lose his "earnest money" due to some glitch in getting the loan applied for . . .BUT - GOD is not MAN.

 

[KennethC]

Yes verb tenses and noun usages do have to be taken into account, however with that being said the verb tenses and nouns do not out weigh the total context of the scriptures. Nor does it give us the right to make one scripture stand alone without using the rest of the Word of God to understand the whole meaning in how something is used.

Example would be Matthew 10:22's endure to the end to be saved can not be taken by itself without that of such scriptures as Hebrews 10:36 and 2 Timothy 2:12.

Scripture to interpret scripture !!!

 

[dcontroversal]

That, as well as the fact both languages are "dead" -- Hebrew was largely out of use for about 2,400 years and therefore did not change, and could be examined in linguistic and historical context to know what it said.

Koine Greek was the language of commerce throughout the known first-century world and made the transmission of the Gospel rapid and certain. But it died out of usage within 60 years of the completion of the New Testament. it was "frozen in time" by it's inactivity, and did not change. Therefore, knowing what it says from a 2,000 year perspective is not difficult at all.

God's provision is amazing.

Interesting thing is, the subject of belief is "Him" -- Jesus Christ. And while "believes" in the English is present tense, it is in the aorist tense of the Koine Greek. That is a belief in a singular event that has ongoing consequences -- Christ died, and belief in the sufficiency of His death always will result in salvation which is always sufficient, forevermore, regardless of when that belief takes root. Pretty amazing, huh?

Amen to this for sure.....and I agree!

 

[crossnote]

Interesting thing is, the subject of belief is "Him" -- Jesus Christ. And while "believes" in the English is present tense, it is in the aorist tense of the Koine Greek. That is a belief in a singular event that has ongoing consequences -- Christ died, and belief in the sufficiency of His death always will result in salvation which is always sufficient, forevermore, regardless of when that belief takes root. Pretty amazing, huh?

I couldn't find any aorist tense in 'pisteuo/believes' it shows 'present, active, participle, nominative, singular, masculine.'
Do you have a source that says otherwise?

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Gr8grace]

That, as well as the fact both languages are "dead" -- Hebrew was largely out of use for about 2,400 years and therefore did not change, and could be examined in linguistic and historical context to know what it said.

Koine Greek was the language of commerce throughout the known first-century world and made the transmission of the Gospel rapid and certain. But it died out of usage within 60 years of the completion of the New Testament. it was "frozen in time" by it's inactivity, and did not change. Therefore, knowing what it says from a 2,000 year perspective is not difficult at all.

God's provision is amazing.

Interesting thing is, the subject of belief is "Him" -- Jesus Christ. And while "believes" in the English is present tense, it is in the aorist tense of the Koine Greek. That is a belief in a singular event that has ongoing consequences -- Christ died, and belief in the sufficiency of His death always will result in salvation which is always sufficient, forevermore, regardless of when that belief takes root. Pretty amazing, huh?

VW, can you point to me how believes is in the aorist tense in this verse? I get the present tense. I sure don't want to be presenting bad information.

If I need to be corrected, can you do that for me?


*26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York **Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686

pisteuw 4100 pres act nom s mas-Ptc *believing 17

I understand this verse as a purpose clause after the conjunction iva, and that is why we see the present tense of believe and the subjunctive mood of may have eternal life.please correct me where i am wrong. The last thing i want to do is spread false information.

 

[crossnote]

Those pesky Bereans are at it again

 

[JesusistheChrist]

to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Colossians 1:21-23)

Some believers will not be presented as Holy,unblameable,and with out reproof.

They may experience shame and a limited reward at the Bema seat........saved, yet so as through fire. "loser" believers. Believers who think they need to work to maintain salvation will most likely experience SHAME at the Bema seat, they relied on their own righteousness......they believed they could lose salvation.

What rubbish.

Paul warned them not to be "moved away from the hope of the gospel" and that hope is eternal life.

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)

These Believers don't enter His rest in this lifetime. Just like the Hebrews wandering in the desert. They were believers, but they didn't take hold of the promises and didn't experience rest in their lifetime.

Again we can relate the loss of salvation crowd to these verses. They don't lay hold of their confidence and assurance, thus they don't experience rest or the promised land during their lifetime(TODAY)

Yet more rubbish. This warning was followed up with another admonition to FEAR lest any come short of entering into God's rest and this rest, contextually, is referring to the world to come.

Try not to throw out your back while you employ such gymnastics.

 

[Gr8grace]

What rubbish.

Paul warned them not to be "moved away from the hope of the gospel" and that hope is eternal life.

Yet more rubbish. This warning was followed up with another admonition to FEAR lest any come short of entering into God's rest and this rest, contextually, is referring to the world to come.

Try not to throw out your back while you employ such gymnastics.

Those verses describe believers like YOU.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Those verses describe believers like YOU.

That's the best response that you could come up with after being shown your error? Apparently so.

 

[Gr8grace]

That's the best response that you could come up with after being shown your error? Apparently so.

Yeah, it probably isn't as good as "rubbish" huh?

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Yeah, it probably isn't as good as "rubbish" huh?

Actually, it isn't. I documented your rubbish. Your turn. Document how I've allegedly turned from the hope of the gospel or how I've been disqualified from God's future rest. Good luck with that. Just go and repent and stop butchering the scriptures.

 

[Gr8grace]

What rubbish.

Paul warned them not to be "moved away from the hope of the gospel" and that hope is eternal life.

Yet more rubbish. This warning was followed up with another admonition to FEAR lest any come short of entering into God's rest and this rest, contextually, is referring to the world to come.

Try not to throw out your back while you employ such gymnastics.

Paul told us not to move away from the Hope(assurance) of the Gospel. Do you believe one can lose salvation?..........you have moved away from the Hope(assurance) of the Gospel.

The rest (In context) was the promised land. They could of entered that rest the DAY they Got there............TODAY.

those verses are describing believers like you. You have lost your Hope............you think you can lose what CHRIST did for you.