The Absolutism of Verb Tense
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J
You're joking, right?
"For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." (Hebrews 4:8-9)
The writer said that "if Joshua (their names are the same) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of ANOTHER DAY". This ANOTHER DAY yet REMAINS to be entered into, so what are you talking about?
Seriously, just be quiet before you make an even bigger fool of yourself. I'm tired of sitting around and letting this OSAS garbage be foisted upon God's people. I'll do my part to combat it with the truth beginning some time this weekend. Jesus didn't believe in OSAS. Of this, we can be sure.
"For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." (Hebrews 4:8-9)
The writer said that "if Joshua (their names are the same) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of ANOTHER DAY". This ANOTHER DAY yet REMAINS to be entered into, so what are you talking about?
Seriously, just be quiet before you make an even bigger fool of yourself. I'm tired of sitting around and letting this OSAS garbage be foisted upon God's people. I'll do my part to combat it with the truth beginning some time this weekend. Jesus didn't believe in OSAS. Of this, we can be sure.
G
Calm down and get back reason. we were not discussing those scriptures. These were the scriptures you brought up and we were discussing.
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)
John 3:36:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
(John 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Eph_1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph_1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
None of these verses are about eternal salvation depending on our works.
They all have Jesus being the one giving it and keeping it.
'Believing'-- change of mind, heart. That is it. Not a work.
These scriptures also speak of having everlasting life. Something that is given before death.
You were right earlier in pointing out that the Hebrew christians were being warned not to return to idolatry etc.. but also part of Hebrews is about explaining Christ is the Messiah.. and so they were also being warned not to return to Judaism.
But my question is:
If you don't believe Jesus teaches OSAS.. well.....
Do you have eternal life?
J
Getting only an average of 4 to 4 1/2 hours of sleep per night for about the last 20 years while normally working about 80 hours a week (including my commute) tend to make me irritable at times, but that's no excuse. I'll show better "netiquette" in the future. I haven't even read more than half of the posts on this thread yet, but I'll try to catch up over the next couple of days (I'm off Monday...yippee!). I'm sorry for any comments that I made which were directed at individuals as opposed to their views. My bad.
J
I did that as a Machinist...forget that......one day I woke up and realized that I was selling the only thing I could never get back...as in the time given me under the sun...my time is more valuable than anyone could ever pay me...........sounds like you need to lose a few irons in the fire... 
J
If you honestly believe that, then you're at odds with the Apostle Paul:
"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." (II Corinthians 1:22)
"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit." (II Corinthians 5:5)
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)
Surely you can see that "the earnest" is the Holy Spirit, can't you? It's important that we understand the significance of different terms which Paul used in his epistles, like "adoption" and "earnest", or else we're inevitably going to miss out on his intent. "The earnest" refers to "earnest money" and, again, it can be returned to the purchaser. Like I said, I've personally had my own "earnest money" returned to me IN FULL twice in just the last five years (remember, I lost my house due to toxic mold 5 years ago) when the houses which I "earnestly" sought to purchase failed inspection.
"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." (II Corinthians 1:22)
"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit." (II Corinthians 5:5)
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)
Surely you can see that "the earnest" is the Holy Spirit, can't you? It's important that we understand the significance of different terms which Paul used in his epistles, like "adoption" and "earnest", or else we're inevitably going to miss out on his intent. "The earnest" refers to "earnest money" and, again, it can be returned to the purchaser. Like I said, I've personally had my own "earnest money" returned to me IN FULL twice in just the last five years (remember, I lost my house due to toxic mold 5 years ago) when the houses which I "earnestly" sought to purchase failed inspection.
If one were actually sealed he/she could not be unsealed. What I think we miss is the fact that God knows who will fail to keep in the faith from the beginning, so although we may see someone as sealed, God will not. Therefore, that person was not sealed to begin with, regardless of their supposed faith.
J
God's covenants are CONDITIONAL. You know, those pesky little "ifs" that so many people like to either ignore or try to explain away. I already cited two examples of the same in my first post here, two examples which nobody has adequately addressed, and I'll give another example now which ought to hit a little closer to home for you. Earlier today, you posted the following on another thread:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...s-christians-1-peter-3-1-7-a.html#post2251686
I'll now cite the same, but I'll also include the next two verses:
"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (II Peter 1:5-11)
If OSAS is true, then why do we need to "give all diligence" to "add" the above things to our faith and why do we need to "give diligence to make our calling and election sure"? Well, Peter gave us the answer, didn't he? Yes, he did when he said "for IF you do these things, you shall never fall". Well, what's the flipside of this coin? Isn't it "IF you don't do these things, then you run the risk of falling"? Peter gave his readers the following warning:
"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." (II Peter 3:17)
Again, why do BELIEVERS who are alleged permanently "sealed" need to "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness"? "Ye also"? Yes, "ye also". IOW, Peter had just finished describing others who had already "been led away with the error of the wicked" and who had already "fallen from their own stedfastness" when he wrote:
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." (II Peter 2:12-22)
Peter warned of those who:
A. Beguile unstable souls.
B. Have forsaken the right way and have gone astray
C. Who have followed the way of Balaam, a prophet of God who was later killed with the sword upon the Lord's command.
D. Allure through the lusts of the flesh those who had "clean" or "INDEED" (look it up) escaped from them who live in error.
E. Those who have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ only to later be entangled again therein and overcome.
F. Those whose latter end is worse with them than the beginning or those who had known the way of righteousness only to later turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
G. Those who have returned to their sins as a dog returns to his own vomit.
H. Those who have returned to their sins like a sow or pig that had been washed returns to wallowing in the mire or mud.
Despite all of these warnings to BELIEVERS, you still insist that OSAS is true. Don't kid yourself. It isn't. The entire Bible is LOADED with warning after warning after warning TO BELIEVERS and we'd all be wise to take heed unto the same. Anyhow, that list that I just gave adequately describes the "ye" to whom Peter was referring. IOW, it adequately describes those whose actions we ought not to follow lest we also fall from our own stedfastness and similarly perish.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...s-christians-1-peter-3-1-7-a.html#post2251686
I'll now cite the same, but I'll also include the next two verses:
"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (II Peter 1:5-11)
If OSAS is true, then why do we need to "give all diligence" to "add" the above things to our faith and why do we need to "give diligence to make our calling and election sure"? Well, Peter gave us the answer, didn't he? Yes, he did when he said "for IF you do these things, you shall never fall". Well, what's the flipside of this coin? Isn't it "IF you don't do these things, then you run the risk of falling"? Peter gave his readers the following warning:
"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." (II Peter 3:17)
Again, why do BELIEVERS who are alleged permanently "sealed" need to "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness"? "Ye also"? Yes, "ye also". IOW, Peter had just finished describing others who had already "been led away with the error of the wicked" and who had already "fallen from their own stedfastness" when he wrote:
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." (II Peter 2:12-22)
Peter warned of those who:
A. Beguile unstable souls.
B. Have forsaken the right way and have gone astray
C. Who have followed the way of Balaam, a prophet of God who was later killed with the sword upon the Lord's command.
D. Allure through the lusts of the flesh those who had "clean" or "INDEED" (look it up) escaped from them who live in error.
E. Those who have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ only to later be entangled again therein and overcome.
F. Those whose latter end is worse with them than the beginning or those who had known the way of righteousness only to later turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
G. Those who have returned to their sins as a dog returns to his own vomit.
H. Those who have returned to their sins like a sow or pig that had been washed returns to wallowing in the mire or mud.
Despite all of these warnings to BELIEVERS, you still insist that OSAS is true. Don't kid yourself. It isn't. The entire Bible is LOADED with warning after warning after warning TO BELIEVERS and we'd all be wise to take heed unto the same. Anyhow, that list that I just gave adequately describes the "ye" to whom Peter was referring. IOW, it adequately describes those whose actions we ought not to follow lest we also fall from our own stedfastness and similarly perish.
J
Tell that to Jonah:
"They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy." (Jonah 2:8)
Of course, there's also this:
"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised); And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:23-31)
Again, as in the two portions of scripture that I cited in my first post here, Christians need to "hold fast the profession of their faith without wavering" and they need to be "exhorting one another, and so much more, as they see the day" of Christ's return "approaching". "Exhort one another" how and how often? Well, this takes us right back to what the author had earlier stated and that which I've already cited on this thread:
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)
Christians ought to be "exhorting each other DAILY, while it is called TODAY, lest any of us be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" and "depart from the living God". Of course, you and several others here would have us to believe that the Apostle was in error and that such exhortations are totally unnecessary in that we allegedly cannot "depart from the living God". Again, you willfully choose to ignore the CONDITIONAL "ifs" or you try to explain them away. In either case, you're not wise to do the same.
Anyhow, in the same manner in which those who despised Moses' law "died without mercy", those who "tread under foot the Son of God, count the blood of the covenant wherewith they WERE sanctified as an unholy thing and do despite unto the Spirit of grace" are counted worthy of a "much sorer punishment". Again, now matter how you slice it, IOW, no matter whether or not you believe that such warnings only apply to those who were seeking to go back under the Mosaic law or no matter whether or not you believe that such warnings apply to those who commit any sort of "willful sin" after having come to Christ, the fact remains that such "WERE SANCTIFIED" by the blood of Christ at one point in time and their final end is "a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour God's adversaries". If that sounds like OSAS to you, then you're greatly deceived or deluded.
"They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy." (Jonah 2:8)
Of course, there's also this:
"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised); And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:23-31)
Again, as in the two portions of scripture that I cited in my first post here, Christians need to "hold fast the profession of their faith without wavering" and they need to be "exhorting one another, and so much more, as they see the day" of Christ's return "approaching". "Exhort one another" how and how often? Well, this takes us right back to what the author had earlier stated and that which I've already cited on this thread:
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)
Christians ought to be "exhorting each other DAILY, while it is called TODAY, lest any of us be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" and "depart from the living God". Of course, you and several others here would have us to believe that the Apostle was in error and that such exhortations are totally unnecessary in that we allegedly cannot "depart from the living God". Again, you willfully choose to ignore the CONDITIONAL "ifs" or you try to explain them away. In either case, you're not wise to do the same.
Anyhow, in the same manner in which those who despised Moses' law "died without mercy", those who "tread under foot the Son of God, count the blood of the covenant wherewith they WERE sanctified as an unholy thing and do despite unto the Spirit of grace" are counted worthy of a "much sorer punishment". Again, now matter how you slice it, IOW, no matter whether or not you believe that such warnings only apply to those who were seeking to go back under the Mosaic law or no matter whether or not you believe that such warnings apply to those who commit any sort of "willful sin" after having come to Christ, the fact remains that such "WERE SANCTIFIED" by the blood of Christ at one point in time and their final end is "a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour God's adversaries". If that sounds like OSAS to you, then you're greatly deceived or deluded.
Sound like you have had a long row to hoe.....and some tragic consequences.....You know...a surgeon messed up my handicapped child which resulted in millions of dollars worth of care over the last 20 years....many pushed me to sue and I chose not to....the money would not have changed what the surgeon done......and I am sure you know there is four ways to view your difficulties....
1. Time and chance happen unto all
2. Your are being tested to increase your faith
3. Learning to be obedient through the things which you are suffering
4. Your being chastised because you are in error
I hope you are honest with what is taking place friend and I will pray for you, but seeing how I believe in eternal security are you sure you want me praying for you
1. Time and chance happen unto all
2. Your are being tested to increase your faith
3. Learning to be obedient through the things which you are suffering
4. Your being chastised because you are in error
I hope you are honest with what is taking place friend and I will pray for you, but seeing how I believe in eternal security are you sure you want me praying for you