Does it matter who came up with a certain idea? The question is, does it jive with Scripture?
The Rapture
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Does it matter who came up with a certain idea? The question is, does it jive with Scripture?
K
KennethC
Guest
Putting the Church or believers in Christ in the Great Tribulation has nothing to do with just the replacement theology.
Apostle Paul (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3) says the man of sin is revealed first before any gathering takes place.
Revelation 6:9, 7:9-14, 11:7, 12:17 all show believers in Christ getting killed during the tribulation or Great tribulation, especially the one I have in red.
Y
YuriBrown1234567
Guest
No Pre Trib Rapture to Heaven and No Rapture To Heaven.
John 3:13
Matthew 5:5
Revelation 5:10, 11:15, 21
1 Thess. 4:15-17
Refers to the Saints.
When Christ Returns
Revelation 11:15
Also God's people are told to flee to the mountains when see the Abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place.
Matthew 24:15-28
Luke 21:20-24
Zechariah 14:4-5
Matthew 5:17, 19:17
1 John 5:3
John 3:13
Matthew 5:5
Revelation 5:10, 11:15, 21
1 Thess. 4:15-17
Refers to the Saints.
When Christ Returns
Revelation 11:15
Also God's people are told to flee to the mountains when see the Abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place.
Matthew 24:15-28
Luke 21:20-24
Zechariah 14:4-5
Matthew 5:17, 19:17
1 John 5:3
For that day etc. is in italics and so is not in the original. All that is saying is that the man be revealed before Christ returns (with His saints).
Not sure why you posted these..Revelation 6:9, 7:9-14, 11:7, 12:17 , they are those believers slain during the tribulation...not the Church.
Persecution even unto death is promised to us, but not the great wrath/tribulation which God will pour out in judgement on the earth.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1Th 4:16-18)
A post Trib rapture would state, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, as the Lord descends to earth" (NOT)
because He will come back to earth...
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(Zec 14:4)
It seems senseless to have a rapture after the Tribulation, because faster than we go up...we come down, in the twinkling of an eye...for what purpose?
(1Th 4:16-18)
A post Trib rapture would state, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, as the Lord descends to earth" (NOT)
because He will come back to earth...
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(Zec 14:4)
It seems senseless to have a rapture after the Tribulation, because faster than we go up...we come down, in the twinkling of an eye...for what purpose?
S
shotgunner
Guest
Folks, there will be people born again during the tribulation, so yes some saints will experience some tribulation, but not the church which is taken away at the beginning of the rapture. That's why you also see saints in heaven who have come out of great tribulation.
Scripture plainly says that God has not reserved punishment for his children. You have to interpret scripture so that all verses are true, not just some verses.
Scripture plainly says that God has not reserved punishment for his children. You have to interpret scripture so that all verses are true, not just some verses.
K
KennethC
Guest
2 Thessalonians 2:1 says both the coming of the Lord "and" our gathering together with Him will not happen tell both the falling away and the man of sin revealed takes place first.
Believers in Christ are the Church, and Revelation 7:9-14 shows these believers getting killed during the GT and this group is so large that nobody could number them. They are not just Jews for it says they come from all nations !!!
Finally God's wrath is not the Great Tribulation, as that takes place at the end of the great tribulation, for most of the GT is the man of sin persecuting and killing both Jews and Christians.
There is a reason Daniel 12:11-12 mentions 1, 290 and 1, 335 days, because 1,260 days is given to the man of sin to rule and then the following 30 days and then the following 45 is for Armageddon and God's wrath.
K
KennethC
Guest
Scripture says we are not appointed to face God's wrath, it says nothing about escaping persecution !!!
K
KennethC
Guest
We are pulled up so that God' wrath can be poured out at the end of the Great Tribulation, so that we will not face it as He clearly said we wouldn't.
Look closely at this passage you gave;
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air,
The question is remain from what, and the answer would be those who are still alive after the persecution of the man of sin has come into the world to seek out and kill Jews and Christians both.
S
shotgunner
Guest
Persecution is from the world not God! Why would God persecute the righteous?
Did you take time to read the link I posted? Will you even consider changing your mind when there is clear scripture to support a rapture of the church?
K
KennethC
Guest
Yes I did read what you wrote and you said that the Church will not be in the tribulation, and that God has not reserved punishment for His children.
My response was on those two points because the Great Tribulation is not God's wrath or punishment, that comes at the end of it. For the man of sin is given 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) of the GT to persecute and kill both Jews and Christians, and Jesus comes back to cut those days short so that not all will be killed.
The final 30 and 45 days that follow as Daniel speaks on is for Armageddon and God's wrath, which is why we are given the extra amount of time of 1,290 days and 1,335 days from him.
The Great Tribulation is the man of sins persecution of Jews and Christians in the world.
My point was that people have been trying to slide in this idea of a Rapture for ages. The bookseller are finally making an obsession out of it.
He comes back with the Saints clothed in fine linen.
This happens after the Bema Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
you are rambling here. This is in reference to those who are still alive at the rapture compared to those who have already fallen asleep in Christ.
We will "go up" to meet him as a welcoming party as he desends at his 2nd coming. Not the third or fourth time as pre tribs believe . Christ promised to come back in the second coming. Not pre trib
This is describing a welcoming party. Just liks officials are welcomed to this day
He takes His Church in the rapture, but the angels gather the elect at His Coming to earth when He comes with us clothed in fine linen.
K
KennethC
Guest
No Revelation 19:8 is the marriage supper as verses 7-10 all go together, as this whole scene is the marriage supper and the calling of the Church to it.
Because verse 8 is the Church !!!
Verse 11 is the start of Armageddon, so you can see that this does not prove pre-trib nor does it do away with the 1,260 days that the man of sin is given in the GT to persecute and kill Jews and Christians both.
I
Is
Guest
Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373)
Ephraem wrote an important sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World." As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church. Dr. Grant Jeffrey has noted that he had a profound love for the Scriptures. Below is a selected quote that concerns the escape of God's people from the horrible tribulation. He stated:
"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of hte Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor ofthe appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!
Notice that there is a clear teaching on the rapture of the saints before the terrible tribulation period. This theologian admonishes the people not to desire to see the Day of the Lord? Why? Because in his mind to see the day of the Lord means a person is not a believer. The believers will be snatched away and taken to the Lord before this time period begins. Look closely at what he says again:
Morgan Edwards (1742-1744) the Founder of Brown University
Edwards was a prominent Baptist Leader in his day. When he came to America he was recommended to a pastoral role by the famous John Gill. He founded the first Baptist College in the colonies. This college later became known as Brown University, a well known Ivy League University of our times. Edwards taught that Christ would return for his church saints 3.5 years before he returned to establish the Kingdom of Christ on earth, the 1000 year reign of Christ. He specifically said:
"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more- because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess. 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the Father's house' (John 14:2)."