There Was War In Heaven
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G
This statement totally makes absolutely no sense.. 
"Not Guilty is not the same as Innocent. So if Stealing is Not a good witness, should we automatically conclude Stealing is a bad witness?"
Just because something is not one thing, does not then mean it is the opposite of what it is not.
Just because a cup of water is not cold, does not then mean it is hot.
The Not Guilty verdict of jury only means there was not enough evidence to render the defendant Guilty. It does not mean the plaintiff is Innocent. Verdicts are either "We find the defendant Guilty or Not Guilty". Never are they: "We find the defendant Innocent."
Okay, atwhatcost said that Stealing is not a good witness. Well, just because Stealing is not a good witness does not necessarily mean Stealing is a bad witness.
G
He ascended to heaven, as you note. Yes. Now the visible ascent of Jesus the man does not necessarily suggest He remained in the physical form or realm with which He ascended.
I don't remember which prophet was taken up into heaven in a fiery chariot. It was either (Elisha or Elijah). Where did he go?
Paul the apostle said that when he dies he will be with the Lord.
Stephen saw the Lord in heaven standing. Acts 7
A number of NT passages tell us our bodies will changed when we are with the Lord.
The third heaven, the "place of God", is mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12.
My understanding is that this Third Heaven is the place or realm where the prophet Eli... was taken by a fiery chariot, where Jesus ascended in cloud to (He ascended to the Father), where Stephen in Acts 7 saw the Lord standing! where we will go and be forever with the Lord.
How far did Jesus go? Okay, that's a good question in helping us understand this topic.
My opinion is He travelled upward to heaven for a distance till the naked eye could no longer see Jesus on the cloud. So in the mind of the apostles, they would see him till they could see him no more. The Lord God knowing the apostles could no longer see Jesus Christ on the cloud, transformed, transfigured, changed the Lord Jesus to His eternal form.
I don't know for sure if that's how it happened. Acts 2 says till they saw Him no more.
Seeing Jesus ascend to heaven would be added to the apostles testimony: We saw Jesus baptized by John and saw the Holy Spirit come upon Him as a dove and heard the voice from heaven "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. We saw the miracles of Jesus, even the raising of the dead! We know he was born in Bethlehem, as it is according to the Prophets of the Messiah, he fed multitudes with scraps of food, having an abundance left over. We heard the cries from the cross, we saw the darkness, we felt the earth shake, and the roar of sin and death. We felt defeated. Our king was dead.
Then three days later. It was reported that Jesus' tomb, the one guarded by the Romans, shut with a stone, and sealed by Pilate was empty! Then we beheld the Lord Jesus. He appeared to us in the upper room. He did not come through the door. He did walk through the walls. He did not climb through the widow. He just appeared.
So the ascension was for the benefit of the apostles and their fleshly eyes and their spiritual minds. This Jesus is the Lord. He was crucified, buried, and raised. And He now reigns in heaven.
Heaven being that same place to which He ascended. Yes it was a physical ascent, but then out of the apostles eye sight, the Lord was changed back to His eternal form.
Hope this helps. I got carried away (no pun) with the miracles and all.
I'm sure there are some flaws in my conclusions. And I know this is not going to answer your questions about heaven. But it might lead you to a clearer understanding.
I don't remember which prophet was taken up into heaven in a fiery chariot. It was either (Elisha or Elijah). Where did he go?
Paul the apostle said that when he dies he will be with the Lord.
Stephen saw the Lord in heaven standing. Acts 7
A number of NT passages tell us our bodies will changed when we are with the Lord.
The third heaven, the "place of God", is mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12.
My understanding is that this Third Heaven is the place or realm where the prophet Eli... was taken by a fiery chariot, where Jesus ascended in cloud to (He ascended to the Father), where Stephen in Acts 7 saw the Lord standing! where we will go and be forever with the Lord.
How far did Jesus go? Okay, that's a good question in helping us understand this topic.
My opinion is He travelled upward to heaven for a distance till the naked eye could no longer see Jesus on the cloud. So in the mind of the apostles, they would see him till they could see him no more. The Lord God knowing the apostles could no longer see Jesus Christ on the cloud, transformed, transfigured, changed the Lord Jesus to His eternal form.
I don't know for sure if that's how it happened. Acts 2 says till they saw Him no more.
Seeing Jesus ascend to heaven would be added to the apostles testimony: We saw Jesus baptized by John and saw the Holy Spirit come upon Him as a dove and heard the voice from heaven "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. We saw the miracles of Jesus, even the raising of the dead! We know he was born in Bethlehem, as it is according to the Prophets of the Messiah, he fed multitudes with scraps of food, having an abundance left over. We heard the cries from the cross, we saw the darkness, we felt the earth shake, and the roar of sin and death. We felt defeated. Our king was dead.
Then three days later. It was reported that Jesus' tomb, the one guarded by the Romans, shut with a stone, and sealed by Pilate was empty! Then we beheld the Lord Jesus. He appeared to us in the upper room. He did not come through the door. He did walk through the walls. He did not climb through the widow. He just appeared.
So the ascension was for the benefit of the apostles and their fleshly eyes and their spiritual minds. This Jesus is the Lord. He was crucified, buried, and raised. And He now reigns in heaven.
Heaven being that same place to which He ascended. Yes it was a physical ascent, but then out of the apostles eye sight, the Lord was changed back to His eternal form.
Hope this helps. I got carried away (no pun) with the miracles and all.
I'm sure there are some flaws in my conclusions. And I know this is not going to answer your questions about heaven. But it might lead you to a clearer understanding.
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Okay, atwhatcost said that Stealing is not a good witness. Well, just because Stealing is not a good witness does not necessarily mean Stealing is a bad witness.
Give me an example where stealing is a good witness.
What does God say about it?
You shall not steal.
'You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another.
"You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"
Give me an example where stealing is a good witness.
What does God say about it?
You shall not steal.
'You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another.
"You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"
G
Thank you for your response. I like it and agree with it.
My only point was to show that just because something is not one thing, does not necessarily mean it is the opposite of what it is not.
Plagiarism is stealing. I agree. Never right. Stealing is always wrong. It is the act of a jealous, covetous, selfish heart. It is an act of sin.
Is it a good witness? No. Well, okay. What is it?
Well, if a worker talks about the Lord, about God to her coworkers from time to time and treats them with respect all so on, but steals from others and the company, the believer has by that done more harm than good for the cause of Christ. That can be argued. Peter says the word of God is blasphemed because of such things.
My response to atwhatcost was not meant to be rude or belittling. If I came across as such, I am sorry.
My only point was to show that just because something is not one thing, does not necessarily mean it is the opposite of what it is not.
Plagiarism is stealing. I agree. Never right. Stealing is always wrong. It is the act of a jealous, covetous, selfish heart. It is an act of sin.
Is it a good witness? No. Well, okay. What is it?
Well, if a worker talks about the Lord, about God to her coworkers from time to time and treats them with respect all so on, but steals from others and the company, the believer has by that done more harm than good for the cause of Christ. That can be argued. Peter says the word of God is blasphemed because of such things.
My response to atwhatcost was not meant to be rude or belittling. If I came across as such, I am sorry.
Greetings Rememberthesabbathday,
To be honest, I would have to greatly disagree with this interpretation regarding the war in heaven. First of all, regarding the events contained in the book of Revelation scripture states the following:
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place." (Rev.1:1)
Since the book of Revelation was written right around 95 AD, then the events contained in it, including the war in heaven, as well as the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are still future events.
The information regarding Ezk.28:14 and Isa.14:12-14 are in reference to Lucifer's initial fall/rebelion as a result of his pride and is not referring to the war in heaven which is yet to take place. Furthermore, when John says, "There was war in heaven" he is speaking within the tense of the vision and not of the literal past tense. Scripture demonstrates that Satan and his angels still have access to heaven. Consider the following verse from Job:
"One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them." (Job 1:6)
"On another day the angels[SUP]a[/SUP] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him." (Job 2:1)
This of course is in reference to Job demonstrating that Satan is able to present himself before the Lord in heaven and therefore still access to heaven. Please consider the following scripture also:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down." (Rev.12:10)
The above scripture also demonstrates that Satan still has access to heaven, as it is stated that he is accusing our brothers and sisters before God night and day. The following information is another reason why the war in heaven has not taken place, but is yet future event.
Trumpets five, six and seven are all referred to as "Woes" and the reason for this is because these three trumpets are all demonic in nature.
Fifth Trumpet/1st woe - The Abyss is opened and demonic beings that resemble locusts with the tails and stings of scorpions torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. After the fifth trumpet/1st woe we read the following:
"The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come."
Sixth Trumpet/2nd woe - Four fallen angels who are bound at the Euphrates River are released and they gather together 200 million demonic beings who kill a third of mankind. After this trumpet/woe we read the following:
"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon."
The verses above demonstrate chronology, that is, the fifth trumpet/1st woe goes first, followed by the sixth trumpet/2nd woe, which is then followed by the seventh trumpet/3rd woe. Consequently, Satan and his angels being thrown out of heaven is the seventh trumpet/3rd woe as can be deduced from the following:
===========================================
"For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night,has been hurled down. (Rev.12:10)
"Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” (Rev.12:12)
===============================================
I said all that to say this, since trumpet/woes five, six and seven are in chronological order, then logic bares out that trumpets five and six must take place prior to the seventh trumpet. That being said, if the seventh trumpet/3rd woe which is the war in heaven has already take place, then prior to that, the world should have first experienced the fifth trumpet/1st woe, which are those demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. Now I'm pretty sure that if this event had take place there would be a record of it somewhere and that because it would be horribly terrifying, but also an unprecedented event. Yet we have never heard of such a thing taking place.
After the fifth trumpet/1st woe, the world would then have experienced the sixth trumpet/2nd woe where a third of the earth's population will have been killed by 200 million demonic beings via fire, smoke and sulfur. Again, if a third of the earth had been killed in this manner at any time in history you'd think that there would be some record of it, yet there is nothing at all. That being said, if trumpets five and six have not yet taken place, then neither has trumpet seven, for they are in sequential order.
================================================
Daniel 9:27 says the following:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven' the will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
In relation to this 'seven' Rev.12:6 says:
"The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."
In Rev.12:14 the same event regarding the time that the woman/Israel is taken care of out in the desert is for a time, times and a half a time. Both 1,260 days and a time, times and half a time, are referring to that same last 3 1/2 years of the 'seven' which begins from the time that the abomination is set up, which takes place in the middle of the 'seven'. Therefore, since it is stated that as soon as Satan sees that he is thrown out of heaven to the earth, he then goes after the woman/Israel who is cared for during that last 3 1/2 years with Christ returning at the end. Rev.12:12 where it says that Satan knows that his time is short, is referring to the fact that from the time he is thrown out of heaven, he knows that he only has 3 1/2 before Christ returns where he will be thrown into the Abyss and locked up during the millennial reign of Christ.
To be honest, I would have to greatly disagree with this interpretation regarding the war in heaven. First of all, regarding the events contained in the book of Revelation scripture states the following:
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place." (Rev.1:1)
Since the book of Revelation was written right around 95 AD, then the events contained in it, including the war in heaven, as well as the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are still future events.
The information regarding Ezk.28:14 and Isa.14:12-14 are in reference to Lucifer's initial fall/rebelion as a result of his pride and is not referring to the war in heaven which is yet to take place. Furthermore, when John says, "There was war in heaven" he is speaking within the tense of the vision and not of the literal past tense. Scripture demonstrates that Satan and his angels still have access to heaven. Consider the following verse from Job:
"One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them." (Job 1:6)
"On another day the angels[SUP]a[/SUP] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him." (Job 2:1)
This of course is in reference to Job demonstrating that Satan is able to present himself before the Lord in heaven and therefore still access to heaven. Please consider the following scripture also:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down." (Rev.12:10)
The above scripture also demonstrates that Satan still has access to heaven, as it is stated that he is accusing our brothers and sisters before God night and day. The following information is another reason why the war in heaven has not taken place, but is yet future event.
Trumpets five, six and seven are all referred to as "Woes" and the reason for this is because these three trumpets are all demonic in nature.
Fifth Trumpet/1st woe - The Abyss is opened and demonic beings that resemble locusts with the tails and stings of scorpions torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. After the fifth trumpet/1st woe we read the following:
"The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come."
Sixth Trumpet/2nd woe - Four fallen angels who are bound at the Euphrates River are released and they gather together 200 million demonic beings who kill a third of mankind. After this trumpet/woe we read the following:
"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon."
The verses above demonstrate chronology, that is, the fifth trumpet/1st woe goes first, followed by the sixth trumpet/2nd woe, which is then followed by the seventh trumpet/3rd woe. Consequently, Satan and his angels being thrown out of heaven is the seventh trumpet/3rd woe as can be deduced from the following:
===========================================
"For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night,has been hurled down. (Rev.12:10)
"Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” (Rev.12:12)
===============================================
I said all that to say this, since trumpet/woes five, six and seven are in chronological order, then logic bares out that trumpets five and six must take place prior to the seventh trumpet. That being said, if the seventh trumpet/3rd woe which is the war in heaven has already take place, then prior to that, the world should have first experienced the fifth trumpet/1st woe, which are those demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. Now I'm pretty sure that if this event had take place there would be a record of it somewhere and that because it would be horribly terrifying, but also an unprecedented event. Yet we have never heard of such a thing taking place.
After the fifth trumpet/1st woe, the world would then have experienced the sixth trumpet/2nd woe where a third of the earth's population will have been killed by 200 million demonic beings via fire, smoke and sulfur. Again, if a third of the earth had been killed in this manner at any time in history you'd think that there would be some record of it, yet there is nothing at all. That being said, if trumpets five and six have not yet taken place, then neither has trumpet seven, for they are in sequential order.
================================================
Daniel 9:27 says the following:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven' the will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
In relation to this 'seven' Rev.12:6 says:
"The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."
In Rev.12:14 the same event regarding the time that the woman/Israel is taken care of out in the desert is for a time, times and a half a time. Both 1,260 days and a time, times and half a time, are referring to that same last 3 1/2 years of the 'seven' which begins from the time that the abomination is set up, which takes place in the middle of the 'seven'. Therefore, since it is stated that as soon as Satan sees that he is thrown out of heaven to the earth, he then goes after the woman/Israel who is cared for during that last 3 1/2 years with Christ returning at the end. Rev.12:12 where it says that Satan knows that his time is short, is referring to the fact that from the time he is thrown out of heaven, he knows that he only has 3 1/2 before Christ returns where he will be thrown into the Abyss and locked up during the millennial reign of Christ.
Greetings Rachel,
Your assessment would be correct! As I stated in my response on this thread, the information regarding Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are referring to Lucifer's original fall due to his beauty and therefore, pride. That information, though relevant, is not synonymous with the war in heaven found in Rev.12, but is yet a future event that will take place in the middle of Daniel's seven. After that war in heaven and being thrown to the earth, then Satan will know that his time is short only having 3 1/2 years left before Christ returns and he is thrown into the Abyss.
Furthermore, trumpets five, six and seven are shown to take place in sequential order and therefore, trumpets five and six must take place prior to trumpet seven. I haven't seen any demonic beings that resemble locusts with tails and stings like scorpions that have tormented the inhabitants of the earth for five months, have you?
Your assessment would be correct! As I stated in my response on this thread, the information regarding Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are referring to Lucifer's original fall due to his beauty and therefore, pride. That information, though relevant, is not synonymous with the war in heaven found in Rev.12, but is yet a future event that will take place in the middle of Daniel's seven. After that war in heaven and being thrown to the earth, then Satan will know that his time is short only having 3 1/2 years left before Christ returns and he is thrown into the Abyss.
Furthermore, trumpets five, six and seven are shown to take place in sequential order and therefore, trumpets five and six must take place prior to trumpet seven. I haven't seen any demonic beings that resemble locusts with tails and stings like scorpions that have tormented the inhabitants of the earth for five months, have you?
J
There's a lot of truth contained in your answer and this "war" is definitely yet future.
"And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Daniel 11:31-12:1)
The prophet Daniel had been mourning and praying for three full weeks (Daniel 10:1-12) and then he was visited by an angel who revealed unto him what would happen in relation to his people ("thy people" - Daniel 12:1), the Israelites/Jews, in the end times. Yes, the angel forewarned Daniel of the antichrist who would "enter also into the glorious land" (Daniel 11:41) or enter into Israel and "plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain" (Daniel 11:45). IOW, the antichrist will be situated in Israel in the last days. Yes, the antichrist will "exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods" (Daniel 11:36) and this will take place before Christ's return even as Paul told us in his second epistle to the Thessalonians:
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" (II Thessalonians 2:3-5)
Furthermore, the antichrist will also "pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate" (Daniel 11:31). IOW, there is a coming rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in which "the daily sacrifice" will be restored until the time comes that the antichrist "takes away" the same and "places the abomination that maketh desolate" in "the sanctuary of strength", thereby "polluting" it. Yes, it's called "the abomination that maketh desolate" because when said "abomination" is placed within the rebuilt temple, then God will allow invading armies into Jerusalem to "make it desolate". Anyhow, IT IS AT THIS JUNCTURE IN TIME, when "the abomination that maketh desolate" is set up within the coming rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, that "Michael shall stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Daniel 12:1) or when what is commonly called "the great tribulation" begins. Yes, IT IS AT THIS JUNCTURE IN TIME when "Michael shall stand up" (Daniel 12:1) that the "war in heaven" will actually take place:
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:1-17)
Here, we see the "dragon", the Devil or Satan (Revelation 12:9), "making war with the remnant of her", the "woman's" or Israel's, "seed which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 12:17). IOW, in the last days, Israel will enter into an end time agreement with the antichrist and the aforementioned Jewish temple will be rebuilt and the antichrist will ultimately "shew himself that he is God" (II Thessalonians 2:4) from within the same. There will be a "remnant" of believing Jews at this time who will flee from Judaea unto "a place prepared of God" and she, "the remnant", "shall be fed there a thousand two hundred and threescore days" or for 1260 days or for 3 1/2 years with a Biblical calendar consisting of 360 days a year. Yes, this 1260 days is the same exact timeframe as "a time, and times, and half a time" (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, 12:7) with "a time" equaling one year. IOW, "the great tribulation" will only be a 3 1/2 year timeframe and it will be triggered IN THE NATURAL REALM by the setting up of "the abomination which maketh desolate" and brought about IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM by the "war in heaven" between "Michael and his angels" and "the dragon and his angels" (Revelation 12:7). Yes, when such a "war" is waged in the heavenlies and Satan and his angels are cast down to this earth (Satan still has access to heaven as I type), THEN "the devil will come down to us, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time" (Revelation 12:12)...and that "short time" is the aforementioned 1260 days or the aforementioned "a time, and times, and half a time" or 3 1/2 years. Keep this in mind as we read the following from Jesus' Olivet discourse:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matthew 24:15-22)
Again, "when we shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place" (Matthew 24:16) or when we shall see the antichrist "pollute the sanctuary of strength" or pollute the sanctuary of the coming rebuilt temple in Jerusalem "and take away the daily sacrifice, and place the abomination that maketh desolate" (Daniel 11:31), THEN we should also expect to see "them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (Matthew 24:16) or then we should expect to see "the remnant" of believing Jews in Judaea flee unto "a place prepared of God" where she, "the remnant", "shall be fed there a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Revelation 12:6) or for 1260 days or for "a time, and times, and half a time" (Revelation 12:14) or for 3 1/2 years with a Biblical calendar consisting of 360 days a year. Yes, this 3 1/2 year timeframe which begins IN THE NATURAL REALM when "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stands in the holy place" (Matthew 24:15) or this 3 1/2 year timeframe which begins IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM when Satan and his angels are cast down to earth and "the devil comes down to us, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time" (Revelation 12:12) coincides perfectly with the "shortened days" (Matthew 24:22) that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet discourse. IOW, seeing how Satan will be cast down to the earth and seeing how he will "come down to us, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time" (3 1/2 years), if God didn't limit the time of Satan's wrath to the same 3 1/2 year timeframe, then "there should no flesh be saved" or nobody would be spared from Satan's wrath. Anyhow, there is great correlation between Daniel chapter 12 and Revelation chapter 12 and also great correlation between those two chapters of the Bible and other portions of the Bible as well.
"And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Daniel 11:31-12:1)
The prophet Daniel had been mourning and praying for three full weeks (Daniel 10:1-12) and then he was visited by an angel who revealed unto him what would happen in relation to his people ("thy people" - Daniel 12:1), the Israelites/Jews, in the end times. Yes, the angel forewarned Daniel of the antichrist who would "enter also into the glorious land" (Daniel 11:41) or enter into Israel and "plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain" (Daniel 11:45). IOW, the antichrist will be situated in Israel in the last days. Yes, the antichrist will "exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods" (Daniel 11:36) and this will take place before Christ's return even as Paul told us in his second epistle to the Thessalonians:
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" (II Thessalonians 2:3-5)
Furthermore, the antichrist will also "pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate" (Daniel 11:31). IOW, there is a coming rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in which "the daily sacrifice" will be restored until the time comes that the antichrist "takes away" the same and "places the abomination that maketh desolate" in "the sanctuary of strength", thereby "polluting" it. Yes, it's called "the abomination that maketh desolate" because when said "abomination" is placed within the rebuilt temple, then God will allow invading armies into Jerusalem to "make it desolate". Anyhow, IT IS AT THIS JUNCTURE IN TIME, when "the abomination that maketh desolate" is set up within the coming rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, that "Michael shall stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Daniel 12:1) or when what is commonly called "the great tribulation" begins. Yes, IT IS AT THIS JUNCTURE IN TIME when "Michael shall stand up" (Daniel 12:1) that the "war in heaven" will actually take place:
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:1-17)
Here, we see the "dragon", the Devil or Satan (Revelation 12:9), "making war with the remnant of her", the "woman's" or Israel's, "seed which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 12:17). IOW, in the last days, Israel will enter into an end time agreement with the antichrist and the aforementioned Jewish temple will be rebuilt and the antichrist will ultimately "shew himself that he is God" (II Thessalonians 2:4) from within the same. There will be a "remnant" of believing Jews at this time who will flee from Judaea unto "a place prepared of God" and she, "the remnant", "shall be fed there a thousand two hundred and threescore days" or for 1260 days or for 3 1/2 years with a Biblical calendar consisting of 360 days a year. Yes, this 1260 days is the same exact timeframe as "a time, and times, and half a time" (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, 12:7) with "a time" equaling one year. IOW, "the great tribulation" will only be a 3 1/2 year timeframe and it will be triggered IN THE NATURAL REALM by the setting up of "the abomination which maketh desolate" and brought about IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM by the "war in heaven" between "Michael and his angels" and "the dragon and his angels" (Revelation 12:7). Yes, when such a "war" is waged in the heavenlies and Satan and his angels are cast down to this earth (Satan still has access to heaven as I type), THEN "the devil will come down to us, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time" (Revelation 12:12)...and that "short time" is the aforementioned 1260 days or the aforementioned "a time, and times, and half a time" or 3 1/2 years. Keep this in mind as we read the following from Jesus' Olivet discourse:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matthew 24:15-22)
Again, "when we shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place" (Matthew 24:16) or when we shall see the antichrist "pollute the sanctuary of strength" or pollute the sanctuary of the coming rebuilt temple in Jerusalem "and take away the daily sacrifice, and place the abomination that maketh desolate" (Daniel 11:31), THEN we should also expect to see "them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (Matthew 24:16) or then we should expect to see "the remnant" of believing Jews in Judaea flee unto "a place prepared of God" where she, "the remnant", "shall be fed there a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Revelation 12:6) or for 1260 days or for "a time, and times, and half a time" (Revelation 12:14) or for 3 1/2 years with a Biblical calendar consisting of 360 days a year. Yes, this 3 1/2 year timeframe which begins IN THE NATURAL REALM when "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stands in the holy place" (Matthew 24:15) or this 3 1/2 year timeframe which begins IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM when Satan and his angels are cast down to earth and "the devil comes down to us, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time" (Revelation 12:12) coincides perfectly with the "shortened days" (Matthew 24:22) that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet discourse. IOW, seeing how Satan will be cast down to the earth and seeing how he will "come down to us, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time" (3 1/2 years), if God didn't limit the time of Satan's wrath to the same 3 1/2 year timeframe, then "there should no flesh be saved" or nobody would be spared from Satan's wrath. Anyhow, there is great correlation between Daniel chapter 12 and Revelation chapter 12 and also great correlation between those two chapters of the Bible and other portions of the Bible as well.
J
She not only sought to pass off somebody else's work as her own, but she also sought to pass off somebody else's work WHICH CONTAINS ERROR IN IT as her own. The "war in heaven" that we read about in Revelation chapter 12 is yet future. You started a tread about peoples' end time beliefs the other day and asked if anybody noticed how that everybody believes different things and I told you that one of the primary reasons for the same is that many people have no working knowledge of the Old Testament. IOW, we cannot begin our quest for truth in relation to end time events with the New Testament because the New Testament is a fulfillment of that which has been prophesied in the Old Testament. Michael won't "stand up" (Daniel 12:1) and there won't be any "war in heaven" until AFTER the prophesied events of Daniel chapter 11 take place. We cannot put our own timeframes on prophesied events while ignoring the actual prophecies themselves, yet such is exactly what multitudes of professing Christians regularly do.