Obsession with Confession (1 John 1:9, sin confession)
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L
Did you know that Frances Ridley Havergal the hymn composer of such loved hymns as "Like A River Glorious" and
"Take My Life, and Let It Be" and many others hymns, she came to this amazing truth as well. She spoke and was fluent in Hebrew and Greek and Latin if I remember the message correctly. And she was also a child prodigy. She struggled with this verse too and came to the same conclusions as our grace brethren. She read these verses in the different languages and as she pondered the how of it, she came to the amazing conclusion as the HolySpirit opened the truth of God's love and grace to her. Her song Like A River Glorious speaks of her rest and peace. I LOVE that song. To think we sang that song for years and never knew the struggles of the writer.
Her father was also a hymn writer and I think her mom?? not sure about her mom. But was so encouraged to read that even saints back then struggled with these questions about forgiveness from moment to moment as we see the ability in our natural man to sin even if we don't do it outwardly we know our thoughts.
How to deal with that knowledge and still be ok to go before the Father with a clear conscience??? Once we find out we are truly forgiven, made righteous by Christ we are able to go to God and again take the love and grace and the gift of no condemnation. It's like being forgiven for the first time all over again. And as the Bibles says... Grace teaches HOW to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., how to live soberly, righteously and Godly in this present age...
The Bible makes more sense as precept upon precept line upon line comes together under the truth of God's redemptive graciousness hand. No longer under the covenant of law, but now under the covenant of grace. Rightly dividing the Word of God will be something we will be doing till the day we leave this earth.
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F
Did you know that Frances Ridley Havergal the hymn composer of such loved hymns as "Like A River Glorious" and
"Take My Life, and Let It Be" and many others hymns, she came to this amazing truth as well. She spoke and was fluent in Hebrew and Greek and Latin if I remember the message correctly. And she was also a child prodigy. She struggled with this verse too and came to the same conclusions as our grace brethren. She read these verses in the different languages and as she pondered the how of it, she came to the amazing conclusion as the HolySpirit opened the truth of God's love and grace to her. Her song Like A River Glorious speaks of her rest and peace. I LOVE that song. To think we sang that song for years and never knew the struggles of the writer.
Her father was also a hymn writer and I think her mom?? not sure about her mom. But was so encouraged to read that even saints back then struggled with these questions about forgiveness from moment to moment as we see the ability in our natural man to sin even if we don't do it outwardly we know our thoughts.
How to deal with that knowledge and still be ok to go before the Father with a clear conscience??? Once we find out we are truly forgiven, made righteous by Christ we are able to go to God and again take the love and grace and the gift of no condemnation. It's like being forgiven for the first time all over again. And as the Bibles says... Grace teaches HOW to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., how to live soberly, righteously and Godly in this present age...
The Bible makes more sense as precept upon precept line upon line comes together under the truth of God's redemptive graciousness hand. No longer under the covenant of law, but now under the covenant of grace. Rightly dividing the Word of God will be something we will be doing till the day we leave this earth.
"Take My Life, and Let It Be" and many others hymns, she came to this amazing truth as well. She spoke and was fluent in Hebrew and Greek and Latin if I remember the message correctly. And she was also a child prodigy. She struggled with this verse too and came to the same conclusions as our grace brethren. She read these verses in the different languages and as she pondered the how of it, she came to the amazing conclusion as the HolySpirit opened the truth of God's love and grace to her. Her song Like A River Glorious speaks of her rest and peace. I LOVE that song. To think we sang that song for years and never knew the struggles of the writer.
Her father was also a hymn writer and I think her mom?? not sure about her mom. But was so encouraged to read that even saints back then struggled with these questions about forgiveness from moment to moment as we see the ability in our natural man to sin even if we don't do it outwardly we know our thoughts.
How to deal with that knowledge and still be ok to go before the Father with a clear conscience??? Once we find out we are truly forgiven, made righteous by Christ we are able to go to God and again take the love and grace and the gift of no condemnation. It's like being forgiven for the first time all over again. And as the Bibles says... Grace teaches HOW to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., how to live soberly, righteously and Godly in this present age...
The Bible makes more sense as precept upon precept line upon line comes together under the truth of God's redemptive graciousness hand. No longer under the covenant of law, but now under the covenant of grace. Rightly dividing the Word of God will be something we will be doing till the day we leave this earth.
I did not know that. That really does give a deeper meaning to those hymns. Thanks for sharing that. It made me think of this quote by Robert Farrar Capon:
“Grace is the celebration of life, relentlessly hounding all the non-celebrants in the world. It is a floating, cosmic bash shouting it’s way through the streets of the universe, flinging the sweetness of its cassations (music) to every window, pounding at every door in a hilarity beyond all liking and happening, until the prodigals come out at last and dance, and the elder brothers finally take their fingers out of their ears.”
L
Have never heard of Robert Farrar Capon. Who is he? He definitely captured the thoughts I've had. Celebration of life!! relentlessly we can't help but tell the story! Once you hear about the gospel of grace and truth you never tire of it or talking about it or hanging around others who know about it., sweet music, joyful even to hilarity of the reality of something only God could invent., how the prodigals can actually come out and dance and how the elder brother can't help but listen too. Thanks for that too and Amen.
F
He was an Episcopal priest, but unlike any other, with a gift for food and for writing about Gods radical grace:
"Religion consists of all the things (believing, behaving, worshiping, sacrificing) the human race has ever thought it had to do to get right with God. About those things, Christianity has only two comments to make. The first is that none of them ever had the least chance of doing the trick: the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins (see the Epistle to the Hebrews) and no effort of ours to keep the law of God can ever finally succeed (see the Epistle to the Romans). The second is that everything religion tried (and failed) to do has been perfectly done, once and for all, by Jesus in his death and resurrection. For Christians, therefore, the entire religion shop has been closed, boarded up, and forgotten. The church is not in the religion business. It never has been and it never will be, in spite of all the ecclesiastical turkeys through two thousand years who have acted as if religion was their stock in trade. The church, instead, is in the Gospel-proclaiming business. It is not here to bring the world the bad news that God will think kindly about us only after we have gone through certain creedal, liturgical and ethical wickets; it is here to bring the world the Good News that “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly.” It is here, in short, for no religious purpose at all, only to announce the Gospel of free grace." - Robert Farrar Capon
"Religion consists of all the things (believing, behaving, worshiping, sacrificing) the human race has ever thought it had to do to get right with God. About those things, Christianity has only two comments to make. The first is that none of them ever had the least chance of doing the trick: the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins (see the Epistle to the Hebrews) and no effort of ours to keep the law of God can ever finally succeed (see the Epistle to the Romans). The second is that everything religion tried (and failed) to do has been perfectly done, once and for all, by Jesus in his death and resurrection. For Christians, therefore, the entire religion shop has been closed, boarded up, and forgotten. The church is not in the religion business. It never has been and it never will be, in spite of all the ecclesiastical turkeys through two thousand years who have acted as if religion was their stock in trade. The church, instead, is in the Gospel-proclaiming business. It is not here to bring the world the bad news that God will think kindly about us only after we have gone through certain creedal, liturgical and ethical wickets; it is here to bring the world the Good News that “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly.” It is here, in short, for no religious purpose at all, only to announce the Gospel of free grace." - Robert Farrar Capon
And this is how you should read.... with consideration to what was accomplished on the cross by Jesus. lol Rightly divide the Word. The means to forgiveness changed once Jesus paid the price for all sin. We receive that forgiveness upon belief that is independent of our conduct towards others. We forgive because we have been forgiven, period. We don't forgive in order that we be forgiven, though there is nothing wrong with forgiveness. We ought to forgive, but such forgiveness is not the basis by which we are forgiven.
L
Often people get upset when this is brought out Ben.
I used to have the Lord's Prayer up in my house as it is a good model for prayer. But then the part you mentioned here >>> Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..... I used to hold to that before understanding after Jesus went to the cross., the forgiveness no longer came that way. We forgive because we have been forgiven. Period. But., I used to wonder how is this making sense?? If I'm forgiven and righteous in Christ., how can I not be forgiven?? It didn't make sense for years until understanding how we are under a new covenant of grace no longer under the old covenant of the law.
Although The Lord's Prayer or some call it the Apostles Prayer., is good for a model on how to pray as I've been taught over the years., i think it is more of an old covenant prayer in some areas like you have posted here.
Often people get upset when this is brought out Ben. I used to have the Lord's Prayer up in my house as it is a good model for prayer. But then the part you mentioned here >>> Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..... I used to hold to that before understanding after Jesus went to the cross., the forgiveness no longer came that way. We forgive because we have been forgiven. Period.
But., I used to wonder how is this making sense?? If I'm forgiven and righteous in Christ., how can I not be forgiven?? It didn't make sense for years until understanding how we are under a new covenant of grace no longer under the old covenant of the law.
Although The Lord's Prayer or some call it the Apostles Prayer., is good for a model on how to pray as I've been taught over the years., i think it is more of an old covenant prayer in some areas like you have posted here.
I used to have the Lord's Prayer up in my house as it is a good model for prayer. But then the part you mentioned here >>> Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..... I used to hold to that before understanding after Jesus went to the cross., the forgiveness no longer came that way. We forgive because we have been forgiven. Period. But., I used to wonder how is this making sense?? If I'm forgiven and righteous in Christ., how can I not be forgiven?? It didn't make sense for years until understanding how we are under a new covenant of grace no longer under the old covenant of the law.
Although The Lord's Prayer or some call it the Apostles Prayer., is good for a model on how to pray as I've been taught over the years., i think it is more of an old covenant prayer in some areas like you have posted here.
Ephesians 4:32King James Version (KJV)
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Colossians 3:13King James Version (KJV)
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
It is clear that we come from a place of forgiveness, and then forgive. We aren't doing something (forgiving) in order to receive forgiveness. We have forgiveness in Jesus. To say we must forgive or God won't forgive us nullifies these verses that say we have been forgiven therefore forgive others.
P
Matthew reads: 'debts' (Atonement had not occurred)
Luke reads: 'sins' (Atonement had occurred)
From Gill's Exposition:
"Now this is mentioned, not as if our forgiving others is the cause of God's forgiving us, or the model of it, or as setting him an example, or as if his and our forgiving were to be compared together, since these will admit of no comparison; but this is an argument founded upon God's own promise and grace, to forgive such who have compassion on their fellow creatures."
I agree, Ben! I hope my comment did not derail your conversation -- it was a bit of a hasty (or "smart alec") comment, and for that: I'm sorry.
Luke reads: 'sins' (Atonement had occurred)
From Gill's Exposition:
"Now this is mentioned, not as if our forgiving others is the cause of God's forgiving us, or the model of it, or as setting him an example, or as if his and our forgiving were to be compared together, since these will admit of no comparison; but this is an argument founded upon God's own promise and grace, to forgive such who have compassion on their fellow creatures."
I agree, Ben! I hope my comment did not derail your conversation -- it was a bit of a hasty (or "smart alec") comment, and for that: I'm sorry.
We have so many verses speaking of Jesus not losing any of us who belong to Him, and yet people will argue against eternal security. They will point to all the "if" statements showing there are conditions but its funny because a true believer will do those ifs automatically. I was speaking with family members about this and we were debating and considering different angles on the topic. One thing that came to mind was can someone truly believe, not just profess, and then disbelieve and then after consideration come to believe again? With this in mind, did the person have salvation, lose salvation and then regain it back? Were they the temple of the Holy Spirit one moment, then not so and then so again? How does that work? If a true believer can depart from the faith, as it were, does the Holy Spirit who is the Seal of Redemption depart from them? That's one loose seal, lol.
[h=1]John 6:39King James Version (KJV)[/h]39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[h=1]John 6:39King James Version (KJV)[/h]39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
F
Heb.13:5 expresses the same thought...and the amplified version really drives that thought home...
"....for He [God] Himself has said, I will not in any way fail you nor give you up nor leave you without support. [I will] not, [I will] not, [I will] not in any degree leave you helpless nor forsake nor let [you] down (relax My hold on you)! [Assuredly not!]"
If our salvation is dependent upon ourselves, then we shouldn't have assurance. Thank God it isn't. Our assurance is in Him and His sufficiency, not in ourselves and our own sufficiency.
Salvation is based on our Faith in Jesus Christ. We can lose our Faith that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, but then how does one AGAIN have Faith in Jesus Christ?
Its IMPOSSIBLE to totally believe that Jesus Christ IS God and a minute later believe that Jesus Christ is NOT God!
Once you have lost your Faith that Jesus Christ is God, you can never receive the Faith again.
Therefore once you have lost your Salvation you can never receive it again because you are putting Jesus to shame!
Its IMPOSSIBLE to totally believe that Jesus Christ IS God and a minute later believe that Jesus Christ is NOT God!
Once you have lost your Faith that Jesus Christ is God, you can never receive the Faith again.
Therefore once you have lost your Salvation you can never receive it again because you are putting Jesus to shame!
P
*Sigh*
Oh boy...
John 20:24-29 (NIV)
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed;blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Oh boy...
John 20:24-29 (NIV)
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed;blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Thomas did NOT lose his Faith that Jesus is God. What he doubted was that Jesus had risen! He did not lose his Faith!
This is a good example of some Christians trying to teach what THEY want the Scriptures to say!
You really need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach you want He says in the Scriptures PeacefulWarrior.
Also the Prodigal Son did NOT lose his believe that his father was his Father! What the Prodigal Son did was to go back to his sins in the World. What this is teaching us is even though WE walk away from God back into our sin life, God stills Loves us and is waiting for us to RETURN!
Like i said PeacefulWarrior you really need to study the Scriptures before you open up your mouth and shove your foot in.
This is a good example of some Christians trying to teach what THEY want the Scriptures to say!
You really need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach you want He says in the Scriptures PeacefulWarrior.
Also the Prodigal Son did NOT lose his believe that his father was his Father! What the Prodigal Son did was to go back to his sins in the World. What this is teaching us is even though WE walk away from God back into our sin life, God stills Loves us and is waiting for us to RETURN!
Like i said PeacefulWarrior you really need to study the Scriptures before you open up your mouth and shove your foot in.