When does the rapture occur?
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G
"That's right --- nothing new --- just the same 'ole solid truth that has always been there..." 
So --- those who are "left behind" are born-again Christians now -- instead of the wicked lost -- is that it?
Are there going to be two separate raptures ( 'our gathering together unto him' ) - one pre-trib and one post-trib?
The only thing that is in conflict with pre-trib rapture is --- well --- the truth.
( "Pre-trib rapture is in conflict with the truth." )
So --- those who are "left behind" are born-again Christians now -- instead of the wicked lost -- is that it?
Are there going to be two separate raptures ( 'our gathering together unto him' ) - one pre-trib and one post-trib?
The only thing that is in conflict with pre-trib rapture is --- well --- the truth.
( "Pre-trib rapture is in conflict with the truth." )
At the 'last trump' - yes; but, the Trumpet Events are post-tribulation. Please see the 'Order Of Evens' web page linked to in my signature.
Revelation 8:6
And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
P
your really going to do this, your going to make a old man like me go on his puter and show you pre-trib scripture. Is there no respect no decency. To take the chance of walking down a flight of stairs to put a end to this madness...really.....I can hear the crying now ....The ooos the aaaas have you no concern for the elderly? I can't ..I just can't do it....what would become of this much debated thread? The heart break it would cause to the people that studied so hard and then proof...all there hard work and efforts gone in a puff of smoke......no. no I just can't do it..
G
Hence, the question - and the thread:
What does the word 'rapture' mean to you?
As long as this cannot be agreed upon - we will get nowhere...
I define it strictly in terms of the phrase 'caught up' in the context of:
1 Thessalonians 4:
[SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What does the word 'rapture' mean to you?
As long as this cannot be agreed upon - we will get nowhere...
I define it strictly in terms of the phrase 'caught up' in the context of:
1 Thessalonians 4:
[SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Trumpets in Revelation are Trumpets of judgement, not the same as ...
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:52)
and
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(1Th 4:16)
And possibly..
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
(Rev 4:1)
The Trumpet in Revelation is sounded by the angel and the reasons are different.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:52)
and
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(1Th 4:16)
And possibly..
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
(Rev 4:1)
The Trumpet in Revelation is sounded by the angel and the reasons are different.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:15-17)
"Caught up"...
726. ἁρπάζω harpázō; fut. harpásō, aor. pass. hērpásthēn, 2d aor. pass. hērpágēn. To seize upon, spoil, snatch away. In Class. Gr., the fut. pass. harpázomai is used more often than in the NT. Literally, to seize upon with force, to rob; differing from kléptō (G2813), to steal secretly. It denotes an open act of violence in contrast to cunning and secret stealing. Though generally harpázō denotes robbery of another's property, it is not exclusively used thus, but sometimes used generally meaning forcibly to seize upon, snatch away, or take to oneself (Matt. 13:19; John 6:15; 10:12, 28, 29; Acts 23:10; Jude 1:23). Especially used of the rapture (Acts 8:39; 2 Cor. 12:2, 4; 1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 12:5); to use force against one (Matt. 11:12).
Deriv.: harpagḗ (G0724), robbery, plundering; harpagmós (G0725), robbery; hárpax (G0727), a rapacious person; diarpázō (G1282), to seize, plunder; sunarpázō (G4884), to seize or grasp with great violence.
Syn.: paralambánō (G3880), to receive; proslambánō (G4355), to receive unto; apospáō (G0645), to draw away; aphairéō (G0851), to remove; exaírō (G1808), to take away; exairéō (G1807), to pluck out, deliver, rescue; aníēmi (G0447), to let go; apotássō (G0657), to take away from and place in proper order.
Ant.: aphíēmi (G0863), to leave; kataleípō (G2641), to leave behind; apoleípō (G0620), to leave away from oneself or behind; egkataleípō (G1459), to leave behind; hupoleípō (G5275), to leave remaining; perileípō (G4035), to leave around; eáō (G1439), to leave; hupolimpánō (G5277), to leave.
(1Th 4:15-17)
"Caught up"...
726. ἁρπάζω harpázō; fut. harpásō, aor. pass. hērpásthēn, 2d aor. pass. hērpágēn. To seize upon, spoil, snatch away. In Class. Gr., the fut. pass. harpázomai is used more often than in the NT. Literally, to seize upon with force, to rob; differing from kléptō (G2813), to steal secretly. It denotes an open act of violence in contrast to cunning and secret stealing. Though generally harpázō denotes robbery of another's property, it is not exclusively used thus, but sometimes used generally meaning forcibly to seize upon, snatch away, or take to oneself (Matt. 13:19; John 6:15; 10:12, 28, 29; Acts 23:10; Jude 1:23). Especially used of the rapture (Acts 8:39; 2 Cor. 12:2, 4; 1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 12:5); to use force against one (Matt. 11:12).
Deriv.: harpagḗ (G0724), robbery, plundering; harpagmós (G0725), robbery; hárpax (G0727), a rapacious person; diarpázō (G1282), to seize, plunder; sunarpázō (G4884), to seize or grasp with great violence.
Syn.: paralambánō (G3880), to receive; proslambánō (G4355), to receive unto; apospáō (G0645), to draw away; aphairéō (G0851), to remove; exaírō (G1808), to take away; exairéō (G1807), to pluck out, deliver, rescue; aníēmi (G0447), to let go; apotássō (G0657), to take away from and place in proper order.
Ant.: aphíēmi (G0863), to leave; kataleípō (G2641), to leave behind; apoleípō (G0620), to leave away from oneself or behind; egkataleípō (G1459), to leave behind; hupoleípō (G5275), to leave remaining; perileípō (G4035), to leave around; eáō (G1439), to leave; hupolimpánō (G5277), to leave.
The wrath of God, also known and prophesied by the prophets as "the day of the Lord," will be an unprecedented event where God's wrath will be poured upon entire earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Consequently, the church cannot be her during that time period and that because we are not appointed to suffer wrath. And with your interpretation, you've done exactly that. In the letter to the church of Philadelphia, Jesus said the following:
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." (Rev.3:10)
The "Hour of trial" is synonymous with "the day of the Lord," which is neither an hour or day in length. Regarding those believers who are here prior to that outpouring of God's wrath, Jesus says that he will [keep them from] the hour of trial. The word here is "Ek" which means "Out of," that is, I will keep you out of the hour of trial. Furthermore, after Paul gives the information regarding the resurrection and catching away, he then says, "Therefore encourage one another with these words." If believers were to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as you have them doing, there would be nothing to be encouraged about, because we would be the recipients of the wrath of God the same as those who had rejected Christ, as well those who will be worshiping the beast, his image and those who receive his mark. There would be no difference between the righteous and the unrighteous. 1 Thes.5:1-4 says the following:
"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
In the verse above, what is important to pay closer attention to is where it is stated that destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, "and they will not escape." Immediately after that Paul says, "But you, brothers." At this point I don't even have to read the rest of the verse and that because the words "But you, brothers" would infer the opposite of those who are not escaping, ergo, you brothers will escape. How will they escape? They will escape exactly that way that Paul previously described, Jesus will descend, the dead believers in Christ will be bodily resurrected and those who are still alive and who waiting from him will be changed in a moment and caught up with them in the clouds, where according to John 14:1-3, Jesus will then take us back to the Father's house that where he is we may be also.
The problem with most expositors is that they fail to recognize that the event of the resurrection and catching away is a completely separate event from when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Resurrection and catching away: The Lord's appearing from heaven where the dead and living believers are resurrected, the living are changed and caught up in the air to meet the Lord, where we are all taken back to the Father's house.
(1 Thes.4:13-16, 1 Cor.15:51-53, John.14:1-3)
The End of the Age: Jesus' physical, visual return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom
(Dan.2:31-35, 44-45)
The chronological order of events according to scripture are as follows:
* The current on-going building of the church (Matt.16:18)
* The removal of the church, dead and living at the Resurrection and catching away (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
* The fulfillment of the seventy 'sevens' when the antichrist makes his covenant with many for that last 'seven' (Dan.9:27)
* The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments continue on throughout that last seven year period (See Revelation)
* The beast will set up the abomination that causes the desolation which takes place at the middle of the seven (Dan.9:27)
* Jesus returns to earth to end the age sometime after the seventh bowl is poured out. (Mt.24:30-31, Rev.16:15, 19:11-21)
* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20)
* Satan is seized by that angel and is thrown into the Abyss where he is locked up during Christ's thousand year reign so that he can't deceive the nations any more until the thousand years have ended. (Rev.20:1-3)
* The resurrection of the great tribulation saints takes place (Rev.20:4)
* Millennial period begins with all who have overcome reigning with Christ (Rev.2:26-27, 20:4)
* Millennial period ends (Rev.20:7)
* Satan is let out of the Abyss and gathers the people of Gog and Magog who are as numerous as the sand on the sea shore and who surround the city that God loves (Jerusalem) and destroys them with fire out of heaven (Rev.20:7-9)
* Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown a thousand years earlier(Rev.20:10)
* This current heaven and earth pass away (Rev.20:11, 21:1-2)
* The resurrection of the unjust takes place and are judged at the great white throne by God (Rev.20:12-13)
* Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:14)
* Anyone's name not found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:15)
* New Heaven, New earth, New Jerusalem (Rev.21:1-2)
* Eternity
In closing, it is the church/bride who is seen following Christ out of heaven, riding on white horses, wearing white linen, fine and clean as he is descending to earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Rev.17:14 identifies those who are with him as his "called, chosen and faithful followers." These would not be designations for angels, but for redeemed believers.
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." (Rev.3:10)
The "Hour of trial" is synonymous with "the day of the Lord," which is neither an hour or day in length. Regarding those believers who are here prior to that outpouring of God's wrath, Jesus says that he will [keep them from] the hour of trial. The word here is "Ek" which means "Out of," that is, I will keep you out of the hour of trial. Furthermore, after Paul gives the information regarding the resurrection and catching away, he then says, "Therefore encourage one another with these words." If believers were to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as you have them doing, there would be nothing to be encouraged about, because we would be the recipients of the wrath of God the same as those who had rejected Christ, as well those who will be worshiping the beast, his image and those who receive his mark. There would be no difference between the righteous and the unrighteous. 1 Thes.5:1-4 says the following:
"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
In the verse above, what is important to pay closer attention to is where it is stated that destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, "and they will not escape." Immediately after that Paul says, "But you, brothers." At this point I don't even have to read the rest of the verse and that because the words "But you, brothers" would infer the opposite of those who are not escaping, ergo, you brothers will escape. How will they escape? They will escape exactly that way that Paul previously described, Jesus will descend, the dead believers in Christ will be bodily resurrected and those who are still alive and who waiting from him will be changed in a moment and caught up with them in the clouds, where according to John 14:1-3, Jesus will then take us back to the Father's house that where he is we may be also.
The problem with most expositors is that they fail to recognize that the event of the resurrection and catching away is a completely separate event from when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Resurrection and catching away: The Lord's appearing from heaven where the dead and living believers are resurrected, the living are changed and caught up in the air to meet the Lord, where we are all taken back to the Father's house.
(1 Thes.4:13-16, 1 Cor.15:51-53, John.14:1-3)
The End of the Age: Jesus' physical, visual return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom
(Dan.2:31-35, 44-45)
The chronological order of events according to scripture are as follows:
* The current on-going building of the church (Matt.16:18)
* The removal of the church, dead and living at the Resurrection and catching away (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
* The fulfillment of the seventy 'sevens' when the antichrist makes his covenant with many for that last 'seven' (Dan.9:27)
* The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments continue on throughout that last seven year period (See Revelation)
* The beast will set up the abomination that causes the desolation which takes place at the middle of the seven (Dan.9:27)
* Jesus returns to earth to end the age sometime after the seventh bowl is poured out. (Mt.24:30-31, Rev.16:15, 19:11-21)
* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20)
* Satan is seized by that angel and is thrown into the Abyss where he is locked up during Christ's thousand year reign so that he can't deceive the nations any more until the thousand years have ended. (Rev.20:1-3)
* The resurrection of the great tribulation saints takes place (Rev.20:4)
* Millennial period begins with all who have overcome reigning with Christ (Rev.2:26-27, 20:4)
* Millennial period ends (Rev.20:7)
* Satan is let out of the Abyss and gathers the people of Gog and Magog who are as numerous as the sand on the sea shore and who surround the city that God loves (Jerusalem) and destroys them with fire out of heaven (Rev.20:7-9)
* Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown a thousand years earlier(Rev.20:10)
* This current heaven and earth pass away (Rev.20:11, 21:1-2)
* The resurrection of the unjust takes place and are judged at the great white throne by God (Rev.20:12-13)
* Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:14)
* Anyone's name not found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:15)
* New Heaven, New earth, New Jerusalem (Rev.21:1-2)
* Eternity
In closing, it is the church/bride who is seen following Christ out of heaven, riding on white horses, wearing white linen, fine and clean as he is descending to earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Rev.17:14 identifies those who are with him as his "called, chosen and faithful followers." These would not be designations for angels, but for redeemed believers.
Greeting Crossnote,
I agree with the above and have always believed this to be prophetic of the where the church is caught up. There are a number of reasons why I believe this.
1. The word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used from chapter 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, but within these same chapters you will not see the word "Hagios" translated "saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 on you will never see the word church, but only the word saints. I believe that God here is showing a distinction between the two. Those referred to as saints from 5:8 on I believe is in reference, not to the church, but to the great tribulation saints.
2. John says that he hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says come up here. I believe that that voice that sounds like a trumpet is synonymous with "The trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16.
3. Another revealing clue that I believe many pass over is when in Rev.1:19 Jesus tells John to write what he has seen, what is now and what will take place later. I believe that this is the key to understanding the overall order of events.
What you have seen: Everything from the time that time back, which includes his vision in 1:7 and Christ in his glorified state.
What is now: The letters to the seven churches represent the "Now" in conjunction with Rev.4:1 "What must take place after this." That being said, I believe that the letters to the churches also represent the entire church period, which would be the "Now" and which we are still currently in. Once the church period has completed, then the "Now" will be over and the "What must take place later" will begin. This would put the church, dead and living as being resurrected and caught up prior to the first seal being opened.
I agree with the above and have always believed this to be prophetic of the where the church is caught up. There are a number of reasons why I believe this.
1. The word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used from chapter 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, but within these same chapters you will not see the word "Hagios" translated "saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 on you will never see the word church, but only the word saints. I believe that God here is showing a distinction between the two. Those referred to as saints from 5:8 on I believe is in reference, not to the church, but to the great tribulation saints.
2. John says that he hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says come up here. I believe that that voice that sounds like a trumpet is synonymous with "The trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16.
3. Another revealing clue that I believe many pass over is when in Rev.1:19 Jesus tells John to write what he has seen, what is now and what will take place later. I believe that this is the key to understanding the overall order of events.
What you have seen: Everything from the time that time back, which includes his vision in 1:7 and Christ in his glorified state.
What is now: The letters to the seven churches represent the "Now" in conjunction with Rev.4:1 "What must take place after this." That being said, I believe that the letters to the churches also represent the entire church period, which would be the "Now" and which we are still currently in. Once the church period has completed, then the "Now" will be over and the "What must take place later" will begin. This would put the church, dead and living as being resurrected and caught up prior to the first seal being opened.
Greetings GaryA,
As a matter of scripture, there is! Another of the errors made by expositors are the words "First Resurrection." When people read the word "First" their minds interpret it as meaning "Only," which is the error. There are in fact several resurrections that all fall under the banner of first resurrection, that is, there are stages or phases of the first resurrection.
* Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection (1 Cor.15:23)
* The church, dead and living is next (1 Cor.15:23, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
* The Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will be changed and caught up (Rev.12:5)
* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11-12)
* And finally, the great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)
Therefore, the term "First resurrection" is meant to differentiate between the stages of resurrections that take place prior to the one which takes place at the end of the thousand years. For those who take part in the resurrection at the end of the thousand years, the second death has power over them.
Who do you think those are who are following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing fine linen are? According to Rev.17:14 and 19:6-8 it is the bride/church who are the called, chosen and faithful followers and who are seen receiving the fine linen, white and clean and therefore are those who are riding on the white horses. If anything, since Rev.19:11-21 shows them following Jesus out of heaven, it would demonstrate that the church will have already been in heaven prior to his returning to the earth to end the age.
As a matter of scripture, there is! Another of the errors made by expositors are the words "First Resurrection." When people read the word "First" their minds interpret it as meaning "Only," which is the error. There are in fact several resurrections that all fall under the banner of first resurrection, that is, there are stages or phases of the first resurrection.
* Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection (1 Cor.15:23)
* The church, dead and living is next (1 Cor.15:23, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
* The Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will be changed and caught up (Rev.12:5)
* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11-12)
* And finally, the great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)
Therefore, the term "First resurrection" is meant to differentiate between the stages of resurrections that take place prior to the one which takes place at the end of the thousand years. For those who take part in the resurrection at the end of the thousand years, the second death has power over them.
Who do you think those are who are following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing fine linen are? According to Rev.17:14 and 19:6-8 it is the bride/church who are the called, chosen and faithful followers and who are seen receiving the fine linen, white and clean and therefore are those who are riding on the white horses. If anything, since Rev.19:11-21 shows them following Jesus out of heaven, it would demonstrate that the church will have already been in heaven prior to his returning to the earth to end the age.
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