Departure From Oblivion!

[just-me]

Once again if Apostle Paul was talking in the present tense in Romans 7 then why does Romans 7:14 and Romans 8:6 conflict with one another ???

If Apostle Paul is speaking present tense in chapter 7 then by what he said in chapter 8 would be Paul calling himself spiritually dead. For chapter 7 he says he is carnal sold under sin, but in chapter 8 he says that carnal way leads to eternal death.

Also what Apostle Paul just got done saying in chapter 7 he says in Romans 7:24 who can deliver him from this body of death (wretched ways). He is looking for deliverance still which is to be saved !!!

To make chapter 7 a continuance of how Paul always was in the faith then you just made the gospel of Christ a license to sin.
For Paul is talking about walking in the flesh in chapter 7, and then chapter 8 he is speaking on walking in the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16-17 (Paul knew exactly what he was talking about.)
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

 

[just-me]

Not at all just making a point that the priesthood is not the only part of the old covenant that is being spoken on as you alluded to before to make it about only that one aspect. It is speaking on the whole old covenant not just one part of it.

Just like Hebrews 8:7 says if the first covenant would have been found without fault a second would not have been made.

The flesh is to weak to keep the laws therefore it brought death instead of life !!!

You got it. The flesh is weak, but "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4 So we do not die by God's spoken word, but just the opposite. We live by His word. His word reveals the sin that causes death. His word is life, our sin is death.

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Isaiah 40:8

A "covenant" and "law" are two completely different things. Many believe that by the "Old Covenant" being done away with, that automatically refers to "God's Law" being done away with. This is not true. A "covenant" or "agreement" is not synonymous with "law." To illustrate, here is a use of the word "covenant", which cannot possibly refer to law:

Genesis 9:12-17,[SUP]
12 [/SUP]And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:[SUP]
13 [/SUP]I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.[SUP]
14 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.[SUP]
16 [/SUP]And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.[SUP]
17 [/SUP]And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

The Old Covenant contain God's words, and like the wine in the old wineskin, it is still good to consume, but the container of warn out, and cannot be used for the new wine.

​

 

[gb9]

You got it. The flesh is weak, but "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4 So we do not die by God's spoken word, but just the opposite. We live by His word. His word reveals the sin that causes death. His word is life, our sin is death.

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Isaiah 40:8

A "covenant" and "law" are two completely different things. Many believe that by the "Old Covenant" being done away with, that automatically refers to "God's Law" being done away with. This is not true. A "covenant" or "agreement" is not synonymous with "law." To illustrate, here is a use of the word "covenant", which cannot possibly refer to law:

Genesis 9:12-17,[SUP]
12 [/SUP]And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:[SUP]
13 [/SUP]I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.[SUP]
14 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.[SUP]
16 [/SUP]And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.[SUP]
17 [/SUP]And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

The Old Covenant contain God's words, and like the wine in the old wineskin, it is still good to consume, but the container of warn out, and cannot be used for the new wine.

​

you might want to hit up dictionary. com and then re-think this post. now you are just reaching for stuff.

 

[KennethC]

You got it. The flesh is weak, but "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4 So we do not die by God's spoken word, but just the opposite. We live by His word. His word reveals the sin that causes death. His word is life, our sin is death.

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Isaiah 40:8

A "covenant" and "law" are two completely different things. Many believe that by the "Old Covenant" being done away with, that automatically refers to "God's Law" being done away with. This is not true. A "covenant" or "agreement" is not synonymous with "law." To illustrate, here is a use of the word "covenant", which cannot possibly refer to law:

Genesis 9:12-17,[SUP]
12 [/SUP]And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:[SUP]
13 [/SUP]I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.[SUP]
14 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.[SUP]
16 [/SUP]And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.[SUP]
17 [/SUP]And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

The Old Covenant contain God's words, and like the wine in the old wineskin, it is still good to consume, but the container of warn out, and cannot be used for the new wine.

​

Apostle Paul said every law that he thought was suppose to bring life actually brought forth death. (Romans 7:10)

Again nowhere does it say all 613 Mosaic laws applies to new covenant Gentile believers, and live by every word by the mouth of God does not mean everything He ever said has to be obeyed by us to continue to do. They are to be taken into account of the purpose they served, and the laws severed their purpose until we come to Christ.

After Christ they no longer serve a purpose in our lives, for we are lead by the Spirit not the law...........

The law does not justify, sanctify, save, or keep one in the faith............

 

[Angela53510]

The entire Bible is the Word of God and, according to His own Words, important for all of us to live by. (Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4) There is serious departure from God’s instructions today and very lame excuses given by people for that departure, such as it's a bunch of boring rituals made obsolete by Christ's sacrifice on the cross and way too negative with all of the “thou shalt nots” in it. It is obvious by such a foolish statement that they do not even know the law.

For a long time I have wished that someone that Christians consider reputable would teach the importance of the entire Bible rather than the separation of the Old Testament from the New Testament, as being all that matters now. A scholar would be listened to much more so than an ordinary person, theoretically anyway, and because of that, could do so much to help 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century Christians understand more fully how the Bible is one big story, all parts intertwined with all of the other parts. (See 2 Peter 1:20). And now it is happening! A very reputable professor at Wheaton College is doing just that and I am so excited about it.

Could this be the “revival” I have heard so many say will happen just before the Lion of Judah returns?

Orthodox Messianic Judaism: Stop the Press! Mainline Christian Scholars Beginning to Promote the Torah of Moses
Daniel Block | Theopedia

I took a course on Deuteronomy by Daniel Block. It was absolutely an amazing course. His knowledge of Hebrew and the Old Testament was unbelievable. And he is such a Christ centered man.

He also has written two books, besides the scholarly ones mentioned in the link:

The Gospel According to Moses

How I Love Your Torah, O Lord.

They are deep and hard reads, but combined with the lectures and power point in class, he made it so clear that the Old Testament is intertwined with the fulfillment in Jesus in the New Testament.

But I would not consider him to be Messianic Jew. He was quite clear in that. He was not calling anyone to become a Messianic Jew, but rather to understand the vital part the Old Testament still plays in the lives of believers today.

 

[Agricola]

Sitting back and waiting for the people who disagree with one point to label him as a false teacher and wolf in sheep clothing who will lead you to hell because of it.

 

[pottersclay]

Heres a law that a lot of people over look....

​In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

 

[Shoshanah]

you might want to hit up dictionary. com and then re-think this post. now you are just reaching for stuff.

In order to correctly understand what is written in the Bible we need to put forth a little extra effort and understand how words were used back when they were written, the culture of the place and time in history, context, and study to see if what we think it is saying matches with every other scripture because the Bible cannot contradict itself. One example of words commonly being used today to express something different thatn it is actually defined as is the word "prodigal," which we usually use to describe someone coming back to the right way. But the word actually means "lavishly." That fits the story of the 'prodigal son' because he went out and lived lavishly, but we use the word to mean the 'coming back' part.

 

[Shoshanah]

Heres a law that a lot of people over look....

​In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The temptation to get caught up in 'needing to get our point across' often blurs and messes up an otherwise good discussion and this is a good reminder of "every word of God" and the "laws" of nature He spoke into existence after He spoke the very universe in to existence! Thank you - good thought!

 

[shotgunner]

Heres a law that a lot of people over look....

​In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

I agree that is a natural law that God set in motion but it is not what is referred to as law when we commonly discuss law VS grace. The law spoken of there is the law given by God at MT Sinai, to the children of Israel coming out of Egypt.

 

[Shoshanah]

I agree that is a natural law that God set in motion but it is not what is referred to as law when we commonly discuss law VS grace. The law spoken of there is the law given by God at MT Sinai, to the children of Israel coming out of Egypt.

You said: "I agree that is a natural law that God set in motion but it is not what is referred to as law when we commonly discuss law VS grace."
Surely you don't mean to imply that we are free to determine when God says, “EVERY WORD” it means “this” but not “that” or” this part that is convenient for those too lazy to really “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15 (NAS) do you??? I don’t think so! In fact I know it isn’t so. That is a pretty good description of “presumptuous sin” methinks!

 

[Shoshanah]

Doesn’t it scare the daylights out of you (all who wish to ignore any of the Bible) to read that we are to keep all of God’s commandments and statutes for ever (many times in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and then read Matthew 7:21-24?
21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants.
22 On that Day, many will say to me, `Lord, Lord! Didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we expel demons in your name? Didn't we perform many miracl es in your name?'
23 Then I will tell them to their faces, `I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!'

And Hebrews 4:1-7?
1 Therefore, let us be terrified of the possibility that, even though the promise of entering his rest remains, any one of you might be judged to have fallen short of it;
2 for Good News has also been proclaimed to us, just as it was to them. But the message they heard didn't do them any good, because those who heard it did not combine it with trust.
3 For it is we who have trusted who enter the rest. It is just as he said, "And in my anger, I swore that they would not enter my rest." He swore this even though his works have been in existence since the founding of the universe.
4 For there is a place where it is said, concerning the seventh day, "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."
5 And once more, our present text says, "They will not enter my rest."
6 Therefore, since it still remains for some to enter it, and those who received the Good News earlier did not enter,
7 he again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David, so long afterwards, in the text already given, "Today, if you hear God's voice, don't harden your hearts."

It should scare you!

 

[shotgunner]

You said: "I agree that is a natural law that God set in motion but it is not what is referred to as law when we commonly discuss law VS grace."
Surely you don't mean to imply that we are free to determine when God says, “EVERY WORD” it means “this” but not “that” or” this part that is convenient for those too lazy to really “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15 (NAS) do you??? I don’t think so! In fact I know it isn’t so. That is a pretty good description of “presumptuous sin” methinks!

Let me ask you this. Are you living by every word? Do you sacrifice lambs or doves on a regular basis? Do you follow ritual washings? Do you keep every feast?

The every word argument is completly bogus.

 

[KennethC]

Let me ask you this. Are you living by every word? Do you sacrifice lambs or doves on a regular basis? Do you follow ritual washings? Do you keep every feast?

The every word argument is completly bogus.

Of course not those where fulfilled by Jesus on the cross as well as most of the feast have been fulfilled by the Lord.

That is true as the bible shows those things are shadows of things to come, what happens to them when the thing they point comes??? They are fulfilled and served their purpose now we move to the rest, just like the laws served their purpose to point out our transgressions and our need for a Savior for them.

Now that our Savior has come and we are in the faith in Him under grace we no longer walk by the letter of the law, we walk by the Holy Spirit's guidance. The perfect law of liberty spoken of in scriptures is the Lord's teachings and commands from the gospel book, not the OT Mosaic laws.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Well I have pretty much come to the conclusion that MANY BELIEVERS...merely believe Jesus dies to give them a get out of hell ticket. I also notice that very few people who actually READ the bible ever even consider who Jesus is talking to diagnosing "hardness of heart".
There also seems to be some misunderstanding about WHAT covenant actually consists of and the idea that "putting on Jesus' righteous robe" is some magical/mystical thing and that requires no stewardship on our part.
They are not scared... and like you shosh... I have to wrestle with that issue myself. How much time do I spend on my face over this.... hmmm.... be back in a while.

 

[just-me]

Let me ask you this. Are you living by every word? Do you sacrifice lambs or doves on a regular basis? Do you follow ritual washings? Do you keep every feast?

The every word argument is completly bogus.

Those are carnal leading questions. Not like it's anything new from people who desire God's words to be ignored. It's no laughing matter.

Let me ask you a couple. Do you walk the hill of Calvary every day with your own cross?"

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23)

Do you have a cross erected every Passover (Easter) so you can be crucified?

"I am crucified with Christ:" (Galatians 2:20)

Why do you attempt to prove yourself as having nothing but carnal thoughts? You are doing yourself a great disfavor as others see what you have written here "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God." (Romans 8:7a) For goodness sakes, do yourself, and everybody reading this thread a favor, and be decent. Think spiritual

 

[ember]

You are doing fine! Whatever post you read, just remember that EVERY Word of God is still true and valid for Christians today - it is inescapable- and you will stay on track!

I enjoy your comments!

LOL thanks!

 

[KennethC]

Doesn’t it scare the daylights out of you (all who wish to ignore any of the Bible) to read that we are to keep all of God’s commandments and statutes for ever (many times in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and then read Matthew 7:21-24?
21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants.
22 On that Day, many will say to me, `Lord, Lord! Didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we expel demons in your name? Didn't we perform many miracl es in your name?'
23 Then I will tell them to their faces, `I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!'

And Hebrews 4:1-7?
1 Therefore, let us be terrified of the possibility that, even though the promise of entering his rest remains, any one of you might be judged to have fallen short of it;
2 for Good News has also been proclaimed to us, just as it was to them. But the message they heard didn't do them any good, because those who heard it did not combine it with trust.
3 For it is we who have trusted who enter the rest. It is just as he said, "And in my anger, I swore that they would not enter my rest." He swore this even though his works have been in existence since the founding of the universe.
4 For there is a place where it is said, concerning the seventh day, "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."
5 And once more, our present text says, "They will not enter my rest."
6 Therefore, since it still remains for some to enter it, and those who received the Good News earlier did not enter,
7 he again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David, so long afterwards, in the text already given, "Today, if you hear God's voice, don't harden your hearts."

It should scare you!

Both of these passages you are using do not support continuing to obey and follow the 613 written ordinances of the Mosaic laws.

The Matthew 7:21-23 passage is about not serving two masters, as you can not serve the Lord and continue to live deliberate sinful lifestyles.

The Hebrews 4:1-7 passage is speaking on obeying the gospel not the laws to receive eternal life (enter into His rest).
As in those who do not obey to repent of their sins, get baptized, forgive others, and continue to walk in love will not enter into His rest.

For Hebrews 4:2 tells us this.............."For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Obeying the gospel message and not the letter of the law !!!

 

[shotgunner]

Those are carnal leading questions. Not like it's anything new from people who desire God's words to be ignored. It's no laughing matter.

Let me ask you a couple. Do you walk the hill of Calvary every day with your own cross?"

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23)

Do you have a cross erected every Passover (Easter) so you can be crucified?

"I am crucified with Christ:" (Galatians 2:20)

Why do you attempt to prove yourself as having nothing but carnal thoughts? You are doing yourself a great disfavor as others see what you have written here. For goodness sakes, be decent.

Why do you assume yourself to be more decent than me? I'm not telling you to do anything against God. Why do you want to place people into the bondage of law that cannot bring righteousness?

Is your righteousness based on how well you can obey, or on the grace given you by our savior?

Yes, I try to take up my cross daily. Are you so carnal minded that you think that means you are to literally carry a cross? the cross is a symbol of death and surrender my friend. Taking up your cross means for you to die to self and surrender your will to God's will. A big part of that is to acknowledge that you can't save yourself by your good deeds or obedience and to rely on grace alone which will produce good deeds and obedience.

 

[gb9]

and also, the text reads it shall be a statue forever to THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. and please do not pull out " spiritual Israel" the law and gentiles was covered in Acts 15. whole verses please, do not cut and paste.