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I like the one above where he implies that Christ was immersed into Christ....
Originally Posted by KennethC
Being baptized in Christ and being immersed in water (baptizo) is all one and the same process, you can not separate the one from the other. For even Christ Himself did it and commanded us to do it as well !!!
K
So Jesus did not go to John the Baptist to be baptized (immersed in water), and then stated "This has to be done to fulfill all righteousness" ???
After this did His disciples continue to baptize, did He also command it, and did the Apostles continue to command it be done ???
Your answer to all those questions should be, YES !!!
K
Again you are taking a scripture with the word "believe" in it, and leaving it at just that, but the Lord again said those who believe in Him are those that "does what He said."
Again you are using the example of Acts 10 that has already been talked about, and it is not to be used as the common example of the receiving of the Holy Spirit. The Lord gave those Gentiles the Holy Spirit first to prove to the Jews we have the same right to salvation through the Lord as they do. The main standard of receiving the Holy Spirit is what Apostle Peter said in Acts 2:38.
I am not saying we are saved by works as again that is a faulty argument, what I said and always say is that those works in the faith are proof of a true saving faith.
How can you say you are truly saved if you are disobedient to His teachings ??? You can't !!!
Again you are using the example of Acts 10 that has already been talked about, and it is not to be used as the common example of the receiving of the Holy Spirit. The Lord gave those Gentiles the Holy Spirit first to prove to the Jews we have the same right to salvation through the Lord as they do. The main standard of receiving the Holy Spirit is what Apostle Peter said in Acts 2:38.
I am not saying we are saved by works as again that is a faulty argument, what I said and always say is that those works in the faith are proof of a true saving faith.
How can you say you are truly saved if you are disobedient to His teachings ??? You can't !!!
Where did I say that Jesus wasn't immersed?
Paul said, I thank God I immersed none of YOU except......so all those people Paul led to the truth were not saved because he didn't immerse them and if it is required for salvation, why did he not immerse them?
Jesus did not IMMERSE himself into HIMSELF....
Jesus was immersed to show his death, burial and resurrection<-----as the first and in picture, type and shadow....which is exactly what it is for us....an identifier.....it shows we are dead to the old man, buried with Christ and risen with Christ a new creation....an ACT of OBEDIENCE with NO additional addition to salvation, which one currently possesses by FAITH......
You are still pushing a working for salvation Kenneth...even though you deny it.....
Paul said, I thank God I immersed none of YOU except......so all those people Paul led to the truth were not saved because he didn't immerse them and if it is required for salvation, why did he not immerse them?
Jesus did not IMMERSE himself into HIMSELF....
Jesus was immersed to show his death, burial and resurrection<-----as the first and in picture, type and shadow....which is exactly what it is for us....an identifier.....it shows we are dead to the old man, buried with Christ and risen with Christ a new creation....an ACT of OBEDIENCE with NO additional addition to salvation, which one currently possesses by FAITH......
You are still pushing a working for salvation Kenneth...even though you deny it.....
K
I like the one above where he implies that Christ was immersed into Christ....
Originally Posted by KennethC
Being baptized in Christ and being immersed in water (baptizo) is all one and the same process, you can not separate the one from the other. For even Christ Himself did it and commanded us to do it as well !!!
Was Jesus immersed in water when baptized by John; Yes or no ???
What is the process of the baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16 ??? Is this to be done in water yes or no ???
Did the Apostles still command this water immersion baptism in Jesus name in Acts; Yes or No ???
Again your answers should all be yes.................................................
K
No Apostle Paul was not doing away with water immersion as a part of baptism in that verse of 1 Corinthians 1:14.
What Paul was stating is that he was glad that he wasn't the one who personal baptized them because he did not want them going around saying they were baptized into Paul.
For we are to state we are baptized into Jesus when we go through that process of baptism.
We have to be born again of water and Spirit to see the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus made it clear that nobody who is not born again will see the kingdom of heaven. The water part is not natural birth as that is a false rendering from one verse taken out of context.
Nicodemus thought Jesus was talking about natural birth to, but when asked the Lord, Jesus responding are you not a teacher of Israel and do not understand. Jesus said this because in the law both water and blood were used for sanctification of the priests and others.
What Paul was stating is that he was glad that he wasn't the one who personal baptized them because he did not want them going around saying they were baptized into Paul.
For we are to state we are baptized into Jesus when we go through that process of baptism.
We have to be born again of water and Spirit to see the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus made it clear that nobody who is not born again will see the kingdom of heaven. The water part is not natural birth as that is a false rendering from one verse taken out of context.
Nicodemus thought Jesus was talking about natural birth to, but when asked the Lord, Jesus responding are you not a teacher of Israel and do not understand. Jesus said this because in the law both water and blood were used for sanctification of the priests and others.
E
lets ignore the books of John, and all of pauls letters which state that those who are saved will do those things, as apposed to those who are not saved, will not.
prety sad one would think peter and john would contradict paul.
why do you want to call Gods gift a reward or a prize? and not a gift as God called it? Can you answer that? For I am dumbfounded why anyone would do such a thing.
prety sad one would think peter and john would contradict paul.
why do you want to call Gods gift a reward or a prize? and not a gift as God called it? Can you answer that? For I am dumbfounded why anyone would do such a thing.
E
Until you realise the baptism of the spirit and baptism of water are two seperate events, with 2 seperate results. you will never understand.
Neither paul, DC or myself are demanding it is ok not to be baptized in water, in fact if we spoke to a person who professed to be a christian yet never has been baptised in water, we would discuss that with him to find out why, then encourage him to be baptised in water, if he refused, we would question his faith.
What we refuse to do is replace baptism of God with baptism in water. Which is blasphemy.
ps, I was born of water ad spirit. The way jesus told nicodemus to.
by believeing in his name, (john 3: 16) Not by being immersed in water, I was saved and given the gift of eternal life LONG before I allowed some man to baptize me.
Neither paul, DC or myself are demanding it is ok not to be baptized in water, in fact if we spoke to a person who professed to be a christian yet never has been baptised in water, we would discuss that with him to find out why, then encourage him to be baptised in water, if he refused, we would question his faith.
What we refuse to do is replace baptism of God with baptism in water. Which is blasphemy.
ps, I was born of water ad spirit. The way jesus told nicodemus to.
by believeing in his name, (john 3: 16) Not by being immersed in water, I was saved and given the gift of eternal life LONG before I allowed some man to baptize me.
Neither one of them indicate that we have to wait for the eternal life we already possess.....what you are blind to is the simple fact that the spirit has been BORN AGAIN and SOMETHING born is ALREADY ALIVE.....for someone who mouths a lot about things out of context and or twisted you sure seem to do it a lot.....
Pretty simple at the end of the day.....you have to actually be born from above to understand the word...when you add to the word and believe a gospel of a different kind with no power to save the answer is simple......works, water do not save and or keep saved and that is exactly what he believes and trusts into...his works and water....oh yeah....he has to work to the end to actually be saved and have eternal life.....
Satan has really distorted the teaching regarding this issue of grace vs. works and that because anyone who trusts in their own efforts will not inherit the kingdom of God, which is why this controversy exists. Jesus gave us an example of those who trust in their own efforts:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ "
In the example above, those people find out that they are not entering into the kingdom of God. Their own response of "did we not" gives them away as to why they are not entering in and that by citing their own works, "did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons and do many miracles?". Jesus says not everyone will enter in except he who does the will of my Father. The will of the Father is for us to believe in his Son, which by their response they weren't doing. We have to look to the father of faith as an example of how he was credited with righteousness. Notice the word "credited," which would infer "not earned."
We have to go back to the example of the father of faith, which was that Abraham believed God and that belief alone in God's promise is how Abraham was credited with righteousness. Should we do works, definitely! And we should be zealous for them, but not to obtain nor maintain salvation, but to glorify God. And by our good works we will also receive reward from the Lord at his appearing. But anyone who is counting on works as an aid to salvation are not trusting in Christ, but their own efforts.
When Peter was preaching the good news to Cornelius' household, while he was still speaking, they all received the Holy Spirit and all began speaking in languages and prophesying. This happened before they were baptized, without being circumcised, without being under the law or promising to obey the law, without performing any kind of works or the promise thereof to do so. So how were they saved, Because God purified their hearts by faith and by their faith alone.
"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”
We are saved because, as the Scripture states above, The Lamb purchased men for God with his own blood. Therefore, we cannot take credit for salvation by anything we do. Our focus should be solely on Christ as the One who provided salvation for us as a free gift and not something that can be earned. To drive the point home, if Jesus was standing in between us and the kingdom of God and he was asking each person why he should be allowed in, the answer should be because you paid the penalty for my sins by the shedding of your blood. To add on to that with a list of your own works would be to say that his sacrifice was insufficient.
Conclusion: Trust in Christ alone for your salvation as the One who provided it. Eagerly desire to do good works to bring glory to God and by doing so you are also building up your treasures in heaven.
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ "
In the example above, those people find out that they are not entering into the kingdom of God. Their own response of "did we not" gives them away as to why they are not entering in and that by citing their own works, "did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons and do many miracles?". Jesus says not everyone will enter in except he who does the will of my Father. The will of the Father is for us to believe in his Son, which by their response they weren't doing. We have to look to the father of faith as an example of how he was credited with righteousness. Notice the word "credited," which would infer "not earned."
We have to go back to the example of the father of faith, which was that Abraham believed God and that belief alone in God's promise is how Abraham was credited with righteousness. Should we do works, definitely! And we should be zealous for them, but not to obtain nor maintain salvation, but to glorify God. And by our good works we will also receive reward from the Lord at his appearing. But anyone who is counting on works as an aid to salvation are not trusting in Christ, but their own efforts.
When Peter was preaching the good news to Cornelius' household, while he was still speaking, they all received the Holy Spirit and all began speaking in languages and prophesying. This happened before they were baptized, without being circumcised, without being under the law or promising to obey the law, without performing any kind of works or the promise thereof to do so. So how were they saved, Because God purified their hearts by faith and by their faith alone.
"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”
We are saved because, as the Scripture states above, The Lamb purchased men for God with his own blood. Therefore, we cannot take credit for salvation by anything we do. Our focus should be solely on Christ as the One who provided salvation for us as a free gift and not something that can be earned. To drive the point home, if Jesus was standing in between us and the kingdom of God and he was asking each person why he should be allowed in, the answer should be because you paid the penalty for my sins by the shedding of your blood. To add on to that with a list of your own works would be to say that his sacrifice was insufficient.
Conclusion: Trust in Christ alone for your salvation as the One who provided it. Eagerly desire to do good works to bring glory to God and by doing so you are also building up your treasures in heaven.
E
Amen.
the propblem with those people is they did not realise their plight against god. in thinking they were saved by doing those works which God commanded, they did not realize how sinful their really were.
We could say the law did not do its job in their lives, and since it did not. they continued to practice sin, although they were blind to it. because they did not realize again the law. These people judge others for practicing sin, when in reality, they try to excuse their own sin. until they do as you said, place their complete trust in Jesus and not their works, they will continue to be blind to their own sin. Even up until the day of judgment, when they will still be blind to their own sin, and still be puffing up their own works.
the propblem with those people is they did not realise their plight against god. in thinking they were saved by doing those works which God commanded, they did not realize how sinful their really were.
We could say the law did not do its job in their lives, and since it did not. they continued to practice sin, although they were blind to it. because they did not realize again the law. These people judge others for practicing sin, when in reality, they try to excuse their own sin. until they do as you said, place their complete trust in Jesus and not their works, they will continue to be blind to their own sin. Even up until the day of judgment, when they will still be blind to their own sin, and still be puffing up their own works.
Amen and it really is simple at the end of the day...be not removed from the simplicity that is found in Christ......It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE....many like to convolute it by adding works, water, religious sacraments etc.......faith=salvation period! And I agree...after we are saved we work to receive rewards (misthos) pay or wages!
E
As john said, I tell you these things so you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. and CONTINUE TO TRUST HIM.
if we do not KNOW we have eternal life, we have no hope. and if we have no hope. we have no faith. if we have no faith. we have nothing but our works and good deeds. in which case we will have to puff ourselves up. not for anyone elses benefit, but for our own, for what else do we have? I have to puff myself up as good. judge others, or I will crash and burn because I have no other hope. period.
thats why the pharisees hates Jesus so much, he told them their hope (works) was a false hope.
K
No what you don't understand is the eternal life abiding in us is of the Holy Spirit, not our own spirit, and Apostle John clarifies this in his epistle.
The two scriptures I gave are just a couple of many from Paul and Peter that shows the actual physical possession of eternal life comes at the end of our faith, not the beginning as so badly taught now days.
The scriptures say faith in Christ unto eternal life !!!
Unto makes it a statement of something received at a later point in time, and again the eternal life we have now is a mental assurance of knowing we have it by the Holy Spirit abiding in us.
If you claim you have it at minute one of faith/belief, then you have all the original 12 Apostles saved before Pentecost.
They were not however because;
a) Jesus had not died on the cross yet to pay for the debt of our sins
b) Jesus had not risen again on the 3rd day
c) The Apostles did not receive the Holy Spirit tell Pentecost, therefore they could not be born again yet
They believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah (Lord and Savior) before He was crucified, but they could not have been saved yet according to the Lord as they were not yet born again by the Spirit.
The two scriptures I gave are just a couple of many from Paul and Peter that shows the actual physical possession of eternal life comes at the end of our faith, not the beginning as so badly taught now days.
The scriptures say faith in Christ unto eternal life !!!
Unto makes it a statement of something received at a later point in time, and again the eternal life we have now is a mental assurance of knowing we have it by the Holy Spirit abiding in us.
If you claim you have it at minute one of faith/belief, then you have all the original 12 Apostles saved before Pentecost.
They were not however because;
a) Jesus had not died on the cross yet to pay for the debt of our sins
b) Jesus had not risen again on the 3rd day
c) The Apostles did not receive the Holy Spirit tell Pentecost, therefore they could not be born again yet
They believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah (Lord and Savior) before He was crucified, but they could not have been saved yet according to the Lord as they were not yet born again by the Spirit.